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Author Topic: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms  (Read 2475 times)

NickZ

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Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« on: December 17, 2016, 07:18:47 pm »
Hello,

So my testosterone tanked this week to 291. My sleep has been horrible. The last two nights
I have been awake until 5am, then sleeping maybe 1-2 hours broken up. What's keeping me awake is the chronic internal head vibrations/buzzing, head pressure/pounding, internal chest vibrations and heart pounding (normal BPM). I assume these are sleep deprivation symptoms, inflammation and/or high or low cortisol. Can anyone recommend a temporary remedy to either lessen or override these symptoms so that I can sleep?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 09:22:40 pm by PeakT »

Balderdasher

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2016, 08:27:16 pm »
Hello,

So my testosterone tanked this week to 291. My sleep has been horrible. The last two nights
I have been awake until 5am, then sleeping maybe 1-2 hours broken up. What's keeping me awake is the chronic internal head vibrations/buzzing, head pressure/pounding, internal chest vibrations and heart pounding (normal BPM). I assume these are sleep deprivation symptoms, inflammation and/or high or low cortisol. Can anyone recommend a temporary remedy to either lessen or override these symptoms so that I can sleep?

Avoid caffeine after noon (seems obvious, but a lot of people don't consider how significantly this can affect your sleep). 

Not sure what could be causing your other symptoms, but it sounds like it is time to visit a Doctor.  Re: your T levels, I'd get connected to a good Doc (Defy) as soon as you can to begin working through that particular issue.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 09:22:48 pm by PeakT »
I am not a medical doctor.  All suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.

Age: 30 | Height: 6ft 1in | Weight: 175

Protocol: 40mg T Cyp 2x/week + 400u HCG 2x/week.

Original Results - 9-2012:
TT: 387 ng/dl
FT: 11.2 pg/ml

Varicocele repair -> on TRT for 1 year -> tapered off T for 1 year -> back to TRT

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2016, 08:27:16 pm »

Kierkegaard

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2016, 08:49:15 pm »
Are you saying those symptoms are physically keeping you up, or you're sort of freaked by them, meaning you're having a psychological reaction?  Presumably because of testosterone's norepinephrine-decreasing effects, low testosterone can easily ramp up a person enough to cause insomnia.  You might try taking l-theaning (which lowers norepinephrine), glycine (an amino acid which naturally makes us sleepy), possibly GABA (which would work only through non-brain-related GABA receptor areas, like the gut, but worth a shot as it's the body's main inhibitory neurotransmitter), and last but not least the king of all antihistamine sleep aids, doxylamine succinate (which is what knocks you out in Nyquil; I'd rec starting with a quarter or third of a 25 mg tablet, no more than half).
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 09:22:58 pm by PeakT »
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction/low cortisol
Treatment: 30-35 mg cypionate subq E3D, 50 mcg levothyroxine QD; adaptogens
Supplements: fish oil, vitamin D3, magnesium, copper (low in serum), DIM, coq10, B vitamins (including hydroxyb12), probiotic, astaxanthin, iodine
Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression.aspx

gimmeabreak

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2016, 09:40:29 pm »
I don't know where you live but if you can, try to get your hands on some CBD oil. I been experimenting with it for sleep and so far I have had good results. I've only a few days of experimenting though.

Are you considering TRT? It made a huge difference in my sleep.
38 years old/ 180lbs.


April 2016 - 50mg test cypionate 2x week
                - 100 iu HCG ed
                - 25 mg DHEA daily
               
Sleep apnea - CPAP

- Former natural physique competitor
- switched from weightlifting to gymnastics in January 2016
- diet: some what paleo based. Lots of veggies, no sugar, no grains, fish, chicken, beef. (I use wild, grass fed, free range and hormone free whenever possible)

PeakT

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2016, 12:03:17 am »
Jonny: "Clomid/anastrozole/DIM helped me sleep like a baby:"

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=11648.0
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2016, 12:03:17 am »


Nocturne

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2016, 04:25:13 am »
This is always a problem for me.  It's hard to say what caused what, though.

For years, I got by on minimal sleep -- maybe 4-6 hours on week nights.  But, I would sleep in until noonish on weekends.

After my first ED episode, I suddenly lost the ability to sleep in -- in fact, I started waking up crazy early, sometimes even 2:00 am!  I could always get TO sleep just fine, but then I'd wake up at some ungodly hour and not be able to get back to sleep.  Now I know this makes the problem look totally psychological, but looking back I had also noticed myself losing the ability to sleep in (but not waking up at ungodly hours) for at least a few months prior to ED.

It's still a problem now.  What happens is I will wake up in the early hours, and it seems that I can get back to sleep if I remain relatively uncognizant.  But most of the time, after a few seconds, I am hit with a wave of "youhaveaorticstenosisandcoronaryarterydiseaseyouaregoingtodieyoungyouhaveEDandlowtestosteroneyou'llnevereatlikeanormalpersonagainyou'llneedamechanicalheartvalvebutcoumadinwillacceleratecoronartarterydiseaserememberyouroldlifeit'sgoneforevernowyourwifeisgoingtohavetoendureyoursexproblemsandherrewardwillbeahusbandwhodiesearlyandleavesheroldandalone" and then I am AWAKE and anxious as shit.

This seems to happen less often when my erections are particularly good (surprise surprise), but that's clearly not the only factor.  Yesterday I had fantastic erections, and I woke up with nice wood today, but here I am typing this at 6 am after being awake for IDK how long.  Actually, I usually wake up at 5:30 anyway, but even that still FEELS unnatural to me.

It's clearly psychological in part, but there's probably a hormonal component as well, and maybe something else.  And the truth is, I DO have a good helping of scary shit to worry about.  My T and ED issues were just starting to fade when I got the news about my heart, so I really don't know my baseline normal on Clomid and Anastrazole therapy, and I guess I never will.  I do know that if I got the news that both of the heart issues were mistakes or bad jokes and everything was fine in there, I'd be overjoyed and ready to move on with life, especially given the relatively positive stuff I've read about implants over at franktalk. 

It's worth noting that I am often very calm and relaxed late in the day, and not thinking like that at all, and pretty much always able to get to sleep just fine.  I'll even comment to my wife how weird it is that I feel pretty good but know that I will wake up a wreck in the morning.  THAT seems like hormones to me.  But why anxiety in the morning when T is supposedly at its highest?

So no help from me I'm afraid.  I do take Ashwagandha at night but again, I get TO sleep quite easily (I feel much more calm at night in general, in stark contrast to how I feel in the mornings -- which again points to something hormonal).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 04:47:20 am by Nocturne »
43 years old
5'7", was 220 pounds when trouble started, now down to 165
Trouble began with abrupt ED Early May '15
Initial T level 130
Started Clomid in hopes of rebooting system June '15
Currently taking 25 mg eod and .25 mg Arimidex every 4 days
T level 480 or so at last reading
ED in check with 2.5 mg Cialis eod and supplements:
POM juice, L-Cit, Pycnogenol

Morning anxiety currently in check with GABA taken every night

Biggest current worry is heart health:
Aortic stenosis (very mild for now)
CAC score 156(!) at age 42
Lp(a) is a shockingly bad 390 nmol/L -- TRIPLE the "extremely high risk" level!
Homozygous for the bad "G" variant of SNP rs10455872, which increases Lp(a) as well as odds for aortic stenosis and coronary artery lesions. 
I think I know what trashed my heart...

40 mg Crestor and baby aspirin every day
CoQ-10, Vitamin K2, and Kyolic Aged Garlic Extract every day too
Walking 10,000 steps a day

Kierkegaard

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2016, 05:02:19 am »
And I'd highly rec for Nocturne and anyone else to look into psychological techniques if their insomnia seems to be psychologically (i.e., thought and image) driven rather than physiologically, although obviously these overlap (it's the same norepinephrine that's increased from psychological stress that's caused by "purely" physical illnesses like hypothyroidism).  I have a few book recommendations, some ideas and techniques on anxiety management, and really push for mindfulness meditation here.

The reason I really push for mindfulness -- and the reason why current psychotherapists probably push it too much if they know a bit about it -- is because it doesn't involve just changing the content of your thoughts, which per classic (and very much useful) CBT means changing your emotions (e.g., feeling more relaxed) and behaviors (being able to go to sleep), but changes the way in which we *relate to* our thoughts and emotions (notably anxiety with insomnia) -- from enemies we fight with and with the fighting they become stronger, to passing clouds and we're the insurmountable blue sky.  I also recommend physiological emotion regulation techniques such as controlled breathing (but paired with mindfulness, meaning it's not really that controlled in a sense), progressive muscle relaxation, Yoga before bed (awesome), and (well before bed) exercise.

Mindfulness is just so neat because it's so paradoxical: don't run from or fight the monsters, but *lean into them* by mindfully attending to them (Thich Nhat Hahn called this a form of compassion toward our suffering), and in so doing they lose their power -- what psychologists call "cognitive defusion", where we learn to (only through practice, not just thinking) defuse from our cognitions and emotions, i.e., we don't stick with them as much.

Mindfulness and its more well-rounded bigger brother, Yoga, are both awesome.  But, uh, I just got these video games to play, and, uh, these books to read, and the dog needs a Christmas sweater, so I'll get around to it...kombucha...
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 05:08:27 am by Kierkegaard »
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction/low cortisol
Treatment: 30-35 mg cypionate subq E3D, 50 mcg levothyroxine QD; adaptogens
Supplements: fish oil, vitamin D3, magnesium, copper (low in serum), DIM, coq10, B vitamins (including hydroxyb12), probiotic, astaxanthin, iodine
Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression.aspx

NickZ

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2016, 12:40:32 pm »
Thank you all for your suggestions. Yes, the symptoms are physically keeping me up.

Very interesting about the norepinephrine. I haven't tried l-theanine and glycine at night.
Do you take them together or separately? I haven't had a lot of success with the Gaba.
How much do you recommend? I think I have brain inflammation causing the symptoms and they are only made worse with lack of sleep. I took two Aspirins and that helped with the inflammation and lessening symptoms, but after four hours symptoms came back. I was taking a low dose of doxeypin (6 - 8 mg), on and off, which helped at first, but it stopped working, so I quit using it. Meditation and mantras help.

I'm not planning TRT therapy. I'll look into CBD. I hear good things as well. Thank you.

 

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2016, 12:40:32 pm »

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Kierkegaard

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2016, 11:19:05 pm »
Thank you all for your suggestions. Yes, the symptoms are physically keeping me up.

Very interesting about the norepinephrine. I haven't tried l-theanine and glycine at night.
Do you take them together or separately? I haven't had a lot of success with the Gaba.
How much do you recommend? I think I have brain inflammation causing the symptoms and they are only made worse with lack of sleep. I took two Aspirins and that helped with the inflammation and lessening symptoms, but after four hours symptoms came back. I was taking a low dose of doxeypin (6 - 8 mg), on and off, which helped at first, but it stopped working, so I quit using it. Meditation and mantras help.

I'm not planning TRT therapy. I'll look into CBD. I hear good things as well. Thank you.

Sorry for the delay!

I'd try taking them separately at first, then together.  I'd start with your lowest dose of 1000 mg of glycine, then add 1000 mg the next night and another 1000 the following, but wouldn't go past this although many people do.  Doxepin stops working for lots of people.  It's an antihistamine tricylclic, so you might look into the doxylamine succinate which you can get over the counter, but I wouldn't take it more than a few times per week given that it has a pretty long half life (10-12 hours, like doxepin).  My fancy doc (Dr Mariano) prescribed guanfacine, a blood pressure med which works through lowering norepinephrine, off label for sleep, with the assumption that my problem is high norepinephrine/inflammation.  However, for me, despite it knocking out lots of people who take it during the day for blood pressure (which is why it's not usually prescribed for BP, now more for autism and off label for sleep), I didn't notice much if anything even after doubling the dose with his supervision, meaning my issues may not be norepinephrine related (which was also backed up through other testing you could get, called fractionated catecholamine testing, but doesn't test actual neurotransmitter levels of norepinephrine, epinephrine, and dopamine, only levels in the blood, and those aren't necessarily the same).

According to him (and so far given my research he's right), inflammation and norepinephrine are in a positive feedback loop, meaning each increase the other to some degree, and his great advice is that if my illness is inflammation-related, the goal is to decrease the size of the feedback loop through multiple supplements that lower inflammation, such as fish oil/krill oil, astaxanthin, vitamin A, B12, D, K2, E, and a few others.  So if you're suspecting inflammation -- and it's promising that you're onto something if you feel better with aspirin, but it could possibly be something else -- you might give these a shot.  So far the ones listed haven't seen to have made a noticeable difference, but his two other recommendations, iodine and quercetin, have helped pretty well.  The latter is known to reduce inflammation through reducing mast cell release.

Also, if you suspect brain inflammation, you gotta make sure your gut health is in line, as the brain and gut (strangely) work together, with "leaky gut" leading to "leaky brain" (i.e., perfused blood-brain barrier, causing inflammation).  Chris Kresser has the amazing claim, backed by research, that lots of depression is likely leaky brain related, related to poor gut health.  Probiotics are a great place to start (get a good quality one online that has 40-50 billion CFU).  I recently got into kombucha, rich in probiotics, and love the stuff for the taste.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 11:21:12 pm by Kierkegaard »
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction/low cortisol
Treatment: 30-35 mg cypionate subq E3D, 50 mcg levothyroxine QD; adaptogens
Supplements: fish oil, vitamin D3, magnesium, copper (low in serum), DIM, coq10, B vitamins (including hydroxyb12), probiotic, astaxanthin, iodine
Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression.aspx

NickZ

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2016, 10:56:17 am »
Thank you Kierkegaard for your detailed response. The information is very helpful. I will explore further. Another concern that has really been affecting my sleep is heart pounding when I lay down to sleep. It's a normal BPM, but sometimes it's slightly elevated, going from 58 to 68. It's a hard thud in my chest, making it difficult to fall and stay asleep.

Then I read that when testosterone levels drop at night, it can cause heart pounding. I'm also dealing with some constipation. Before bed, I feel like I have to go, but can't, resulting in my stomach gurgling. The heart pounding goes on all night. I also read that low testosterone can cause constipation. I ate some nuts before bed, thinking I might have low blood sugar, but that may of contributed to my heart pounding. and digestion issues. My hypothesis at this point is I have some kind of gut inflammation, contributing to my insomnia, causing low T.

Kierkegaard

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2016, 03:13:14 pm »
Thank you Kierkegaard for your detailed response. The information is very helpful. I will explore further. Another concern that has really been affecting my sleep is heart pounding when I lay down to sleep. It's a normal BPM, but sometimes it's slightly elevated, going from 58 to 68. It's a hard thud in my chest, making it difficult to fall and stay asleep.

Then I read that when testosterone levels drop at night, it can cause heart pounding. I'm also dealing with some constipation. Before bed, I feel like I have to go, but can't, resulting in my stomach gurgling. The heart pounding goes on all night. I also read that low testosterone can cause constipation. I ate some nuts before bed, thinking I might have low blood sugar, but that may of contributed to my heart pounding. and digestion issues. My hypothesis at this point is I have some kind of gut inflammation, contributing to my insomnia, causing low T.

FWIW, I had that when my previous idiot doc took me off thyroid meds.  Constipation is a good sign of hypothyroidism.  What's your temp first thing in the morning before doing anything, even getting out of bed?  If it's below 98.7 97.8, you're looking at (subclinical) hypothyroidism, and that right there could explain everything given the increased norepinephrine that goes with it. 

But I also think you're onto something with gut inflammation.  I'd recommend checking out probiotics, and if you have the right doc (or the cash out of pocket) look into comprehensive stool testing, which will rule out all sorts of parasites, check your good to bad gut bacteria level, and other things.  It's an awesome test, but costs well over a few hundred bucks if you pay out of pocket.  If I had the cash I'd totally do it. 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 02:55:12 pm by Kierkegaard »
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction/low cortisol
Treatment: 30-35 mg cypionate subq E3D, 50 mcg levothyroxine QD; adaptogens
Supplements: fish oil, vitamin D3, magnesium, copper (low in serum), DIM, coq10, B vitamins (including hydroxyb12), probiotic, astaxanthin, iodine
Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression.aspx

PeakT

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2016, 05:32:04 pm »
Thank you Kierkegaard for your detailed response. The information is very helpful. I will explore further. Another concern that has really been affecting my sleep is heart pounding when I lay down to sleep. It's a normal BPM, but sometimes it's slightly elevated, going from 58 to 68. It's a hard thud in my chest, making it difficult to fall and stay asleep.

Then I read that when testosterone levels drop at night, it can cause heart pounding. I'm also dealing with some constipation. Before bed, I feel like I have to go, but can't, resulting in my stomach gurgling. The heart pounding goes on all night. I also read that low testosterone can cause constipation. I ate some nuts before bed, thinking I might have low blood sugar, but that may of contributed to my heart pounding. and digestion issues. My hypothesis at this point is I have some kind of gut inflammation, contributing to my insomnia, causing low T.

FWIW, I had that when my previous idiot doc took me off thyroid meds.  Constipation is a good sign of hypothyroidism.  What's your temp first thing in the morning before doing anything, even getting out of bed?  If it's below 98.7, you're looking at (subclinical) hypothyroidism, and that right there could explain everything given the increased norepinephrine that goes with it. 

But I also think you're onto something with gut inflammation.  I'd recommend checking out probiotics, and if you have the right doc (or the cash out of pocket) look into comprehensive stool testing, which will rule out all sorts of parasites, check your good to bad gut bacteria level, and other things.  It's an awesome test, but costs well over a few hundred bucks if you pay out of pocket.  If I had the cash I'd totally do it.

Any idea who offers that test?
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

NickZ

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2016, 10:56:58 am »
Thank you again Kierkegaard. You have been very helpful.

Kierkegaard

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Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2016, 02:55:57 pm »
FYI, corrected my mistake regarding morning temp (basal temp) from the wrong 98.7 to the correct 97.8.
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction/low cortisol
Treatment: 30-35 mg cypionate subq E3D, 50 mcg levothyroxine QD; adaptogens
Supplements: fish oil, vitamin D3, magnesium, copper (low in serum), DIM, coq10, B vitamins (including hydroxyb12), probiotic, astaxanthin, iodine
Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression.aspx

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: Advice on How To Sleep With Low Testosterone And Stress Symptoms
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2016, 02:55:57 pm »