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Author Topic: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"  (Read 1359 times)

Osprey

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DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« on: July 03, 2017, 01:34:18 pm »
Labs have shown that I have low DHEA-S so I've been trying to supplement DHEA to bring it up. The problem I've had is that an oral dose of 40mg from a compounding pharmacy makes my insomnia much worse, seemingly by worsening my RLS, and it would also give me a "Sense of Impending Doom", which I just found out is a legitimate medical term. I would literally think I was going to die and came very close to going to the ER, although I wasn't sure what I would tell them when I got there.
This has happened on 3 separate occasions about a month apart when I've taken the 40mg DHEA.
Looking up "Sense of Impending Doom" I find that is is a form of a panic attack, something that I have never experienced before. The interesting thing is that low DHEA is associated with panic attacks, but I've only ever experienced this when trying to supplement.

Anyone have any ideas what might be going on? I've not found much on this.

A lower dose of 25mg still wrecks my sleep, but I don't get the panic attack. I found that Pure Encapsulations makes a 5mg capsule so I may try that.

anton3196

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2017, 01:44:32 pm »
I highly recommend to try transdermal DHEA if you will fail with oral DHEA.. I tried oral version and TD and have to say there is night and day difference between these to. I can't tolerate oral DHEA too for some reason and TD DHEA was very good addition to TRT protocol for me. I feel bad if I miss 2 TD DHEA doses.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:47:02 pm by anton3196 »

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2017, 01:44:32 pm »

Osprey

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2017, 01:50:56 pm »
I highly recommend to try transdermal DHEA if you will fail with oral DHEA.. I tried oral version and TD and have to say there is night and day difference between these to. I can't tolerate oral DHEA too for some reason and TD DHEA was very good addition to TRT protocol for me. I feel bad if I miss 2 TD DHEA doses.

Transdermal only raised my DHEA-S from 46 to 70, but maybe that will have to do.

What is you DHEA-S level?

electrify

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2017, 01:52:44 pm »
Actually, I believe high DHEA-S is also associated with panic disorders.

I think there is a huge misconception-and I was about to start a topic on this before- that somehow having high DHEA-S means no "adrenal fatigue". All combinations of hormones are possible. AF doesnt even exist and its HPA dysfunction.

This is in PTSD but still http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jts.20372/full

DHEA is also an anti glucocorticoid. What are your cortisol levels like?

Your experience seems to echo what ive noticed with hormones in general
--somehow exogenous hormones just arent the same as endogenous.




Cortisol, Serum AM (4.0-22.0 mcg/dL):
Testosterone, Total (250-1100 ng/dL): 420
DHEA-S: 550 (24-537 mcg/dL)
Estradiol: 16
DHT: 31 ng/dL (30-85)

Age:22

PeakT

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2017, 02:04:58 pm »
Labs have shown that I have low DHEA-S so I've been trying to supplement DHEA to bring it up. The problem I've had is that an oral dose of 40mg from a compounding pharmacy makes my insomnia much worse, seemingly by worsening my RLS, and it would also give me a "Sense of Impending Doom", which I just found out is a legitimate medical term. I would literally think I was going to die and came very close to going to the ER, although I wasn't sure what I would tell them when I got there.
This has happened on 3 separate occasions about a month apart when I've taken the 40mg DHEA.
Looking up "Sense of Impending Doom" I find that is is a form of a panic attack, something that I have never experienced before. The interesting thing is that low DHEA is associated with panic attacks, but I've only ever experienced this when trying to supplement.

Anyone have any ideas what might be going on? I've not found much on this.

A lower dose of 25mg still wrecks my sleep, but I don't get the panic attack. I found that Pure Encapsulations makes a 5mg capsule so I may try that.

Defy recommended that I take my Preg/DHEA combo in the evening as they said it often helps with sleep.  I have been a bad patient and just took in the morning along with a variety of supplements I usually take then.  But one of them - can't remember which - boosted IGF-1 I believe.

Anyway, I'll ask the obvious:  why not take it in the morning?  Might work?
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements. Yes, low T and E.D. are usually medical conditions.  There are potential risk with HRT:  http://www.peaktestosterone.com/testosterone_risks.aspx.
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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2017, 02:04:58 pm »

PLEASE SUPPORT THE SITE AND GIVE AN AMAZON REVIEW IF POSSIBLE:


Osprey

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2017, 02:08:29 pm »

DHEA is also an anti glucocorticoid. What are your cortisol levels like?

Latest results from last fall:
7AM  0.27 mcg/dL
1PM  0.06
5PM  0.08
11PM  <0.03

Your experience seems to echo what ive noticed with hormones in general
--somehow exogenous hormones just arent the same as endogenous.

I look at a steroidogenesis chart and see all the different metabolites in there and wonder if there is a missing piece for people like us. Medical care focuses on the ones that we can manipulate but there are a lot more than that.

Osprey

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2017, 02:09:46 pm »
Labs have shown that I have low DHEA-S so I've been trying to supplement DHEA to bring it up. The problem I've had is that an oral dose of 40mg from a compounding pharmacy makes my insomnia much worse, seemingly by worsening my RLS, and it would also give me a "Sense of Impending Doom", which I just found out is a legitimate medical term. I would literally think I was going to die and came very close to going to the ER, although I wasn't sure what I would tell them when I got there.
This has happened on 3 separate occasions about a month apart when I've taken the 40mg DHEA.
Looking up "Sense of Impending Doom" I find that is is a form of a panic attack, something that I have never experienced before. The interesting thing is that low DHEA is associated with panic attacks, but I've only ever experienced this when trying to supplement.

Anyone have any ideas what might be going on? I've not found much on this.

A lower dose of 25mg still wrecks my sleep, but I don't get the panic attack. I found that Pure Encapsulations makes a 5mg capsule so I may try that.

Defy recommended that I take my Preg/DHEA combo in the evening as they said it often helps with sleep.  I have been a bad patient and just took in the morning along with a variety of supplements I usually take then.  But one of them - can't remember which - boosted IGF-1 I believe.

Anyway, I'll ask the obvious:  why not take it in the morning?  Might work?

I've tried that, makes no difference, it takes at least 24 hours for it to get out of my system so I can get what little sleep I normally do.

Dr. John Crisler

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2017, 02:11:34 pm »
Are you taking it in the morning, or at night, or both? BIG difference.

Have you had your Free T4, Free T3, and Reverse T3 levels checked? Sometimes people who--for a plethora of reasons--do not convert thyroid T4 into T3 well. The DHEA sponsors enzyme D1, and so enhances this conversion (and away from enzyme DIII, and therefore Reverse T3 production). Those who are susceptible to anxiety (especially if their SHBG is low/low-normal) may interpret mere changes in physical/emotional status...the old "Future Shock" we started talking about in the mid 1970's.

Also, SOMEONE is sensitive to EVERYTHING there is. That's just the nature of biological systems. First is knowing "what", often before "why", in this business.

I will be releasing a paper just written on DHEA on my professional FB page, in the next few days. Already at my Publicist's, ready to manage/post. It might help you.
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2017, 02:11:34 pm »


anton3196

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2017, 02:12:22 pm »
I highly recommend to try transdermal DHEA if you will fail with oral DHEA.. I tried oral version and TD and have to say there is night and day difference between these to. I can't tolerate oral DHEA too for some reason and TD DHEA was very good addition to TRT protocol for me. I feel bad if I miss 2 TD DHEA doses.

Transdermal only raised my DHEA-S from 46 to 70, but maybe that will have to do.

What is you DHEA-S level?
my dhea-s was in 400s.. was doing 15 mg td dhea.. honestly i've read that td dhea may even not increase DHEA-S levels but I can say for sure it made difference in my TRT and I start to feel bad if I miss 2 doses.. highly recommend it
oral dhea on other side caused me nothing but problems
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 02:15:32 pm by anton3196 »

Osprey

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2017, 02:19:11 pm »
Are you taking it in the morning, or at night, or both? BIG difference.

If I take it in the morning I found I can't get any sleep until about 5AM the following morning. This is even when taking 10mg of zolpidem.

Have you had your Free T4, Free T3, and Reverse T3 levels checked? Sometimes people who--for a plethora of reasons--do not convert thyroid T4 into T3 well. The DHEA sponsors enzyme D1, and so enhances this conversion (and away from enzyme DIII, and therefore Reverse T3 production). Those who are susceptible to anxiety (especially if their SHBG is low/low-normal) may interpret mere changes in physical/emotional status...the old "Future Shock" we started talking about in the mid 1970's.

When I get my free T4 and free T3 toward the upper end of the range my insomnia becomes much worse. I wonder if this is related to my low DHEA-S. I've tried various T4 only meds and various NDT meds with little difference.

Also, SOMEONE is sensitive to EVERYTHING there is. That's just the nature of biological systems. First is knowing "what", often before "why", in this business.

I can totally agree with that! ;D

I will be releasing a paper just written on DHEA on my professional FB page, in the next few days. Already at my Publicist's, ready to manage/post. It might help you.

I will be looking forward to reading it. Thanks for your response!

Boxcar

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2017, 04:40:56 pm »
Myself and another guy had the same insomnia, at roughly the same doses (even when taken in the morning).  I felt pretty relaxed though.  And I never was tested for DHEA, so I may not even be low.

My understanding is that the benefits of DHEA are indirect (such as increased allopregnenalone).  According to my doc, there are not even DHEA receptors in the body.  I recall one study on supplemental pregnenalone, seemed to suggest that allopregnenalone could either cause or cure anxiety, depending on the concentration... so there is definitely some complicated stuff going on in the background.
Age: 36
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Low T Symptoms: Chronic pelvic pain, and other neuropathic pain.  Mild anxiety, low energy and low motivation
Meds: Amitriptyline (for pain, not depression), Clonidine (for sleep, not blood pressure)

cujet

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2017, 05:00:15 pm »
While sense of impending doom is associated with panic attacks, it is also associated with actual heart failure, such as heart attack. But even more strangely, it can be brought on at the relatively innocuous and often unnoticed beginning of congestive heart failure or heart valve failure.

Our bodies do talk to us, and it's good to listen.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 05:03:25 pm by cujet »
53 years old
Autoimmune Hashimoto's, near zero natural T production
Cause: severe mononucleosis in my early 30's
Weight 200
Height 5' 10"
Very active, daily workouts and some cardio.
0.75g compounded 10% T cream, rotated daily to shaved armpits, shaved shoulders, remainder on scrotum
169Mg WPthyroid (same as old Armour formulation)
Perfect bloodwork labs (Mar 2017) , my T=702, TSH 0.5, other thyroid levels normal.


Daily workouts with weights, low-glycemic diet, high in clean protein, very low carb (salad/fish/low fat meats, uncooked veggies, nothing else, ever) Carbs/starch can cause me to have intestinal problems, so I avoid them.

electrify

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2017, 06:22:02 pm »

DHEA is also an anti glucocorticoid. What are your cortisol levels like?

Latest results from last fall:
7AM  0.27 mcg/dL
1PM  0.06
5PM  0.08
11PM  <0.03

Your experience seems to echo what ive noticed with hormones in general
--somehow exogenous hormones just arent the same as endogenous.

I look at a steroidogenesis chart and see all the different metabolites in there and wonder if there is a missing piece for people like us. Medical care focuses on the ones that we can manipulate but there are a lot more than that.


Yep theres all those things. Dr Crisler mentioned in the other thread about DHT he looks at some ratio of a-THF and THF which are cortisol metabolites.

The body is very complicated. Not to mention the whole microbiome thing. I found out I have SIBO recently.

And then neurotransmitters too.


Cortisol, Serum AM (4.0-22.0 mcg/dL):
Testosterone, Total (250-1100 ng/dL): 420
DHEA-S: 550 (24-537 mcg/dL)
Estradiol: 16
DHT: 31 ng/dL (30-85)

Age:22

Dr. John Crisler

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2017, 07:27:40 pm »
Myself and another guy had the same insomnia, at roughly the same doses (even when taken in the morning).  I felt pretty relaxed though.  And I never was tested for DHEA, so I may not even be low.

My understanding is that the benefits of DHEA are indirect (such as increased allopregnenalone).  According to my doc, there are not even DHEA receptors in the body.  I recall one study on supplemental pregnenalone, seemed to suggest that allopregnenalone could either cause or cure anxiety, depending on the concentration... so there is definitely some complicated stuff going on in the background.
There ya go.
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

Dr. John Crisler

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2017, 07:28:46 pm »
While sense of impending doom is associated with panic attacks, it is also associated with actual heart failure, such as heart attack. But even more strangely, it can be brought on at the relatively innocuous and often unnoticed beginning of congestive heart failure or heart valve failure.

Our bodies do talk to us, and it's good to listen.
Mitral Valve Prolapse (MVP).
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

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Re: DHEA and "Sense of Impending Doom"
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2017, 07:28:46 pm »