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Author Topic: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen  (Read 944 times)

Paco1973

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Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« on: October 07, 2017, 03:26:21 pm »
Last winter, I tried to restart my HPTA. I had some serious side effects from the Clomid dose I was taking, and I had some other life issues going on, so I went back on TRT with a prescription for topical cream and HCG from Defy. I can honestly say that the topical cream and HCG combo worked great for me. I was at 4 clicks per day on the cream (can't remember what dose that comes to, but everyone is different), and 100 i.u. HCG every day. I didn't take any AIs with that protocol, and, to be honest, it was the best protocol I've been on. But, my wife was diagnosed with PCOS, and I had to reevaluate taking topical androgens. I decided the risk to her health wasn't worth it, so I stopped taking testosterone on August 30th. I injected HCG 150 i.u. per day from the 30th of August until September 25th, and then I switched to Clomid 12.5mg every other day, and Tamoxifen 5mg on the off days when I don't take Clomid.

I should note that I've been on TRT for 7 years. I am 43 years old, going to be 44 in November. 

Results so far: Fewer side effects from Clomid. I did experience some discomfort when switching from topical testosterone to HCG only, but I think that is due in part because the androgens cleared my system much faster than they did when I was taking injectables. I also went through a rough patch switching from HCG to Clomid and Tamoxifen, but that has passed. I still have some mood swings from taking the Clomid. I think that just goes with the territory, but I think higher doses make them more intense. Most days, I feel pretty normal. I do have days where I feel fatigued, but I also have Rheumatoid Arthritis, so that could be a big factor there. My libido hasn't been in the stratosphere, but I have no problems with performance. I do notice some acne, and I have had moments of hot flashes, but those were mostly when transitioning from HCG to Clomid. I do notice the Tamoxifen keeps nipple soreness at bay. I did have that issue the last time I was taking Clomid at 25mg per day. I did have a sensation of ocular pressure when I started Clomid, but that has subsided.

I am taking my medications under the supervision of a reproductive endocrinologist here in the Philippines. For me, a successful restart would put my total testosterone in the 400s and my free testosterone in the low normal range. I honestly think that the best healer is time, and that most of the causes for low T in my case are environmental, lifestyle, and stress related. My goal is to give my body a minimum of 6 months to recover. Honestly, I'm thinking it might take several months after ceasing all drugs for my body to stabilize. The plan is to taper my dosage after a few months, and see how things hold up once I have ceased all medications. To be honest, it hasn't been as hard as it was last winter when I tried to restart. I have a lot of support and I just have a better attitude in general. For me, it's not a matter of can I recover, it's a matter of when. I said in my last restart that it is a marathon, not a sprint, and I still believe that.

As an aside, after reading many, many medical journals and PCT logs, it seems to me that most PCT protocols fail because the duration of the protocol is too short, the introduction of SERMs occurs before androgens have left the system, SERM dosage is too high (which I think causes some serious estrogen related issues during recovery), and the synergistic qualities of Nolvadex and Clomid are not considered, and medications are often not tapered at the end of treatment. No, I'm not a doctor, so this is just my layman's speculation on the issue of HPTA recovery. It's just that I've noticed that the few journals I could dig up where men recovered after several years of TRT (men in their 50s), more conservative doses of SERMS were used over a longer period of time and those dosages were tapered at the end of treatment. I also think failure is linked to expectations and anxiety linked to expectations. There's a mental aspect to it. For instance, a man who is used to having testosterone levels artificially elevated to the 800s or 900s is not going to feel the same at the 400s or 500s naturally. I think seeing bloodwork that is lower than the upper limits has a psychological effect also. 

Anyhow, sorry for the long, meandering post. I won't be updating every day, but I will pop in from time to time to give updates.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 09:40:24 pm by PeakT »

Cataceous

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Re: BRestart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2017, 06:49:57 pm »
Thanks for sharing your information. Would you consider continuing the Clomid indefinitely if tapering doesn't work out?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 09:40:35 pm by PeakT »
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 56, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
5/2017 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL (348-1197), FT: 16 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 50 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0), DHEA-S: 278 ug/dL (71.6-375.4)

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Re: BRestart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2017, 06:49:57 pm »

Paco1973

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2017, 09:07:27 pm »
Honestly, no. I donít feel 100 percent well on Clomid.  Personally, I think Clomid just has too many estrogenic sides to be a long term solution on its own and taking an AI long term to deal with the sides the s not something I would want to deal with.  For me, the more meds you put into the hormonal mix, the more of a juggling act it becomes. Also, I have read that Clomid increases SHBG over time, and I believe that may be another factor to consider when it comes to long term usage and how people feel on a restart.

As far as a possible failure to restart goes, thatís not on my radar. Iíve responded well to HCG, and I can feel Iím doing Okay on Clomid.  My HPTA is restarting... itís just a matter of time and healing.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 09:40:47 pm by PeakT »

Oldbull

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2017, 01:38:27 pm »
If you dont like the clomid one solution is to use it on/off. For example one month on, one month off.

That would nudge your HPTA and keep your levels pretty good. You could also try two weeks on, two weeks off.

Something like that anyways.

I hope your levels stick but I always found they crashed back down after a few months ceasing the serm. Sometimes sooner. Sometimes later.

But good luck.

Your restart is looking healthy and well planned out. Happy thanksgiving.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 09:40:58 pm by PeakT »

sh1209

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 04:17:22 am »
Glad to hear you're hanging in there Paco. I am now on topical as of this past Sunday and hope to get better benefits than being on the injectable form. I am going to give it a few months to stabilize, and if no luck, I'll go through Defy with a restart protocol at that point. Please keep us informed on your progress, I am definitely interested in hearing how it turns out.

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 04:17:22 am »


PeakT

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2017, 06:00:42 am »
Last winter, I tried to restart my HPTA. I had some serious side effects from the Clomid dose I was taking, and I had some other life issues going on, so I went back on TRT with a prescription for topical cream and HCG from Defy. I can honestly say that the topical cream and HCG combo worked great for me. I was at 4 clicks per day on the cream (can't remember what dose that comes to, but everyone is different), and 100 i.u. HCG every day. I didn't take any AIs with that protocol, and, to be honest, it was the best protocol I've been on. But, my wife was diagnosed with PCOS, and I had to reevaluate taking topical androgens. I decided the risk to her health wasn't worth it, so I stopped taking testosterone on August 30th. I injected HCG 150 i.u. per day from the 30th of August until September 25th, and then I switched to Clomid 12.5mg every other day, and Tamoxifen 5mg on the off days when I don't take Clomid.

I should note that I've been on TRT for 7 years. I am 43 years old, going to be 44 in November. 

Results so far: Fewer side effects from Clomid. I did experience some discomfort when switching from topical testosterone to HCG only, but I think that is due in part because the androgens cleared my system much faster than they did when I was taking injectables. I also went through a rough patch switching from HCG to Clomid and Tamoxifen, but that has passed. I still have some mood swings from taking the Clomid. I think that just goes with the territory, but I think higher doses make them more intense. Most days, I feel pretty normal. I do have days where I feel fatigued, but I also have Rheumatoid Arthritis, so that could be a big factor there. My libido hasn't been in the stratosphere, but I have no problems with performance. I do notice some acne, and I have had moments of hot flashes, but those were mostly when transitioning from HCG to Clomid. I do notice the Tamoxifen keeps nipple soreness at bay. I did have that issue the last time I was taking Clomid at 25mg per day. I did have a sensation of ocular pressure when I started Clomid, but that has subsided.

I am taking my medications under the supervision of a reproductive endocrinologist here in the Philippines. For me, a successful restart would put my total testosterone in the 400s and my free testosterone in the low normal range. I honestly think that the best healer is time, and that most of the causes for low T in my case are environmental, lifestyle, and stress related. My goal is to give my body a minimum of 6 months to recover. Honestly, I'm thinking it might take several months after ceasing all drugs for my body to stabilize. The plan is to taper my dosage after a few months, and see how things hold up once I have ceased all medications. To be honest, it hasn't been as hard as it was last winter when I tried to restart. I have a lot of support and I just have a better attitude in general. For me, it's not a matter of can I recover, it's a matter of when. I said in my last restart that it is a marathon, not a sprint, and I still believe that.

As an aside, after reading many, many medical journals and PCT logs, it seems to me that most PCT protocols fail because the duration of the protocol is too short, the introduction of SERMs occurs before androgens have left the system, SERM dosage is too high (which I think causes some serious estrogen related issues during recovery), and the synergistic qualities of Nolvadex and Clomid are not considered, and medications are often not tapered at the end of treatment. No, I'm not a doctor, so this is just my layman's speculation on the issue of HPTA recovery. It's just that I've noticed that the few journals I could dig up where men recovered after several years of TRT (men in their 50s), more conservative doses of SERMS were used over a longer period of time and those dosages were tapered at the end of treatment. I also think failure is linked to expectations and anxiety linked to expectations. There's a mental aspect to it. For instance, a man who is used to having testosterone levels artificially elevated to the 800s or 900s is not going to feel the same at the 400s or 500s naturally. I think seeing bloodwork that is lower than the upper limits has a psychological effect also. 

Anyhow, sorry for the long, meandering post. I won't be updating every day, but I will pop in from time to time to give updates.

Hey, one other question for you:

Did you ever consider taking injectable testosterone?  I don't believe you discussed that, but that would pose no risk to your wife.  Of course, if you can do a restart, that's ideal and one could make the argument that that should be tried much more frequently.  But just wondering if you discussed the injectable route?
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Paco1973

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2017, 04:33:23 pm »
Peak,

Actually, I was on injectable Cypionate for several years. It worked great for about 6 years, and then suddenly things went haywire with crappy libido, acne, penile numbness, orgasms weren't the same. It's just the positive effects were suddenly gone. I think it may have to do with the fact that I wasn't on HCG for several years. At any rate, if I do return to testosterone, it will be an injectable with HCG, no doubt. I just felt that the time was right for a restart, because the topical would be out of my system in a matter of days instead of weeks. It makes for a bumpier transition (I think because hormone levels fall so fast when you quit topicals versus injectables), but, for me, the timing was just right.

To be honest, I'm doing great. I mean, I feel normal. I'm not tired, I don't have the same extreme sides I had the last time I attempted a restart. Clomid is treating me pretty damn good right now. I plan on staying on for at least a couple of months before a taper.

As for the potential for hormone levels to tank... from all of the research I've done, it seems that there is a correlation between dosage, and time on Clomid therapy when it comes to a restart 'sticking.' Personally, I'm under the impression that conservative dosing over a longer period of time (8 weeks or more) followed by a taper is the best method for a restart. I do know for a fact that conservative dosing of Clomid produces far fewer negative side effects, and the same goes for Tamoxifen. More is not always better.

This is an interesting post by an older gentleman who did a restart after 4 years of Axiron gel: https://www.excelmale.com/showthread.php?10629-Successful-Restart-With-Clomid-Maybe

Thanks to everyone for the interest so far, and I will keep you posted.

electrify

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2017, 05:10:40 pm »
Ugh im actually dealing with the penile numbness/orgasm issues right now.

Its been about a year on TRT and I had a 5 week break from it where 2-3 of those weeks I was on HCG mono and restarted naturally within 3 more weeks. I felt bad though and decided to get back on. However, this time I have major sexual problems. Its not working the same in that area. Used to have amazing libido and orgasms on TRT/HCG.

Ive been blaming this on benzo wd but im not so sure now. I had other symptoms of benzo wd which went away but not this. So it makes me wonder if its even that which is causing it.
Age:23

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2017, 05:10:40 pm »

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PeakT

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2017, 07:58:48 am »
Ugh im actually dealing with the penile numbness/orgasm issues right now.

Its been about a year on TRT and I had a 5 week break from it where 2-3 of those weeks I was on HCG mono and restarted naturally within 3 more weeks. I felt bad though and decided to get back on. However, this time I have major sexual problems. Its not working the same in that area. Used to have amazing libido and orgasms on TRT/HCG.

Ive been blaming this on benzo wd but im not so sure now. I had other symptoms of benzo wd which went away but not this. So it makes me wonder if its even that which is causing it.

So your new pregnenolone morning protocol isn't helping with this?
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Paco1973

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2017, 04:50:07 am »
A quick update: still going strong on Clomid and Tamoxifen. Side effects are very few and very mild (occasional nipple pain, but no signs of gyno). I think Tamoxifen helps in that regard. I still feel very positive about my progress. I love not having to take shots to feel normal. Most days I donít even think about my testosterone levels. I just feel normal. I will have some blood drawn at the beginning of November. I will give another update then.

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2017, 05:13:05 am »
Wow, that sounds like a strong plan. I was having a ton of sides on clomid even at a low dose. Though I didnít have an AI. I doing well on injectables for now. Glad itís working for you, taking a pill is easy.

I literally fell the pain (numbness) I had that on clomid. Not anymore on T. Not sure if injections are just covering up the real issue.

sh1209

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2017, 05:20:09 am »
Paco are you now taking 12.5 eod of clomid?

Paco1973

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2017, 06:03:08 am »
Yep. 12.5 mg eod, and 5 mg Tamoxifen on the days I donít take clomid.

doin it

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2017, 05:20:20 pm »

Paco, your original post was Oct. 7, when do you plan to start your taper ?  And will you taper both or just the Clomid ?

Ausguy222

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2017, 09:03:46 pm »
Wow, that sounds like a strong plan. I was having a ton of sides on clomid even at a low dose. Though I didnít have an AI. I doing well on injectables for now. Glad itís working for you, taking a pill is easy.

I literally fell the pain (numbness) I had that on clomid. Not anymore on T. Not sure if injections are just covering up the real issue.

Nolvadex isnít an AI though? Itís just going to block the effects on the breast site, but not actively lower E2 I thought?

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Re: Restart Protocol Using HCG Then Clomid and Tamoxifen
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2017, 09:03:46 pm »