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Author Topic: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases  (Read 1048 times)

PeakT

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Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« on: December 10, 2017, 10:39:37 am »
Guys,

Cataceous just posted this, and I think it's so important that I wanted to pull it out in its own thread and highlight it:

"... Interestingly, research has suggested that obesity can be triggered in men, at least partially, by estrogenic effects [82]."
...

It's not the main focus of the thread, but I'd like to zoom in on this statement, as it's giving an incorrect impression. Looking at the reference, here's the actual conclusion:

Quote
... we found that lean mass, muscle size, and strength are regulated by androgens; fat accumulation is primarily a consequence of estrogen deficiency; and sexual function is regulated by both androgens and estrogens.

So lack of estrogen leads to fat. The details:

Quote
Effects of Testosterone without Aromatase Inhibition on Body Composition
In cohort 1, the percentage of body fat increased significantly in men who received 0 g, 1.25 g, or 2.5 g of testosterone daily [leading to below-normal testosterone], as compared with men who received 5 g daily [normal testosterone], and it decreased significantly in men who received 10 g of testosterone daily [above-normal testosterone], as compared with each of the other groups (Figure 3A). Lean mass decreased significantly in men who received placebo or 1.25 g of testosterone daily, as compared with men who received 2.5 g, 5 g, or 10 g of testosterone daily (Figure 3B). Subcutaneous-fat area increased by a factor of 2 to 3 in men receiving 0 g, 1.25 g, or 2.5 g of testosterone daily, as compared with men receiving 5 g or 10 g daily, though only the comparisons with the 10-g dose group were significant (Fig 3C). ...
...
Effects of Testosterone with Aromatase Inhibition on Body Composition
In cohort 2, the percentage of body fat increased in all groups when the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol was inhibited. The magnitudes of these increases were similar with doses of 0 g, 1.25 g, 2.5 g, and 5 g of testosterone daily, a finding that suggests a predominantly estrogenic effect (Figure 3A). Total-body lean mass decreased significantly in men who received placebo, as compared with those who received 1.25 g, 2.5 g, or 10 g of testosterone daily, a finding that implies an independent effect of testosterone (Figure 3B). Subcutaneous-fat area increased in all groups in cohort 2, though only the comparison of changes between the 1.25-g and 10-g dose groups was significant (Figure 3C). ...

Link to the study: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1206168
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
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And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

vvs1

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2017, 11:27:28 am »
We know that body fat will increase aromatase. Possible that fat accumulation is the homeostasis to to increase e2? Or low e2 will slow down the thyroid or inhibits t3 from cells.

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2017, 11:27:28 am »

Cataceous

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2017, 12:22:19 pm »
We know that body fat will increase aromatase. ...

I don't have time to research it now, but I'm curious as to how large this effect actually is. How does the magnitude compare to natural inter-individual variation? Some guys, like Joe Sixpack, naturally have very low levels. Whereas I'm at a good weight but maybe have above-average aromatase.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 56, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T cyptionate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid, 7.5 mg preg. orally qd
5/2017 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL (348-1197), FT: 16 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 50 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0), DHEA-S: 278 ug/dL (71.6-375.4)

PeakT

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2017, 10:40:45 am »
We know that body fat will increase aromatase. ...

I don't have time to research it now, but I'm curious as to how large this effect actually is. How does the magnitude compare to natural inter-individual variation? Some guys, like Joe Sixpack, naturally have very low levels. Whereas I'm at a good weight but maybe have above-average aromatase.

We know the effect is significant because guys can actually make themselves hypogonadal from being severely overweight:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Weight_Loss.aspx
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2017, 10:40:45 am »


Cataceous

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2017, 06:22:42 pm »
We know that body fat will increase aromatase. ...
... How does the magnitude compare to natural inter-individual variation? ...

We know the effect is significant because guys can actually make themselves hypogonadal from being severely overweight:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Weight_Loss.aspx

Obesity is also associated with lower SHBG, which leads to lower total testosterone. This study found an average decrease of 1.26 nmol/L in SHBG for each unit of BMI increase. I ran a quick example and found a 15% decrease in total testosterone for a five-unit increase in BMI.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 56, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T cyptionate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid, 7.5 mg preg. orally qd
5/2017 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL (348-1197), FT: 16 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 50 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0), DHEA-S: 278 ug/dL (71.6-375.4)

Cataceous

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2017, 07:05:15 pm »
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Weight_Loss.aspx

I looked more closely at this article and noticed that the idea of runaway estradiol-induced hypogonadism comes from a 20-year-old hypothesis that isn't mentioned in recent articles on hypogonadism. If this were a common cause of hypogonadism then you'd expect low doses of aromatase inhibitors would easily fix the problem.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 56, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T cyptionate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid, 7.5 mg preg. orally qd
5/2017 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL (348-1197), FT: 16 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 50 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0), DHEA-S: 278 ug/dL (71.6-375.4)

Roger

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2017, 12:34:00 am »
Quote
In cohort 1, the percentage of body fat increased significantly in men who received 0 g, 1.25 g, or 2.5 g of testosterone daily [leading to below-normal testosterone], as compared with men who received 5 g daily [normal testosterone], and it decreased significantly in men who received 10 g of testosterone daily [above-normal testosterone], as compared with each of the other groups (Figure 3A).

You would think that taking 10g of testosterone daily [above-normal testosterone] would elevate one's estrogen above normal levels also. But rather than increasing fat accumulation, taking 10g of testosterone without an AI resulted in significant fat loss for the men in this study. So, if fat loss is one's primary goal, perhaps it's best not to worry about taking an AI in conjunction with TRT? What do you think?
Age: 52
Height: 5' 8"
Weight: 180 lbs
Body Fat: 10-13%

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Cataceous

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2017, 04:54:59 am »
...So, if fat loss is one's primary goal, perhaps it's best not to worry about taking an AI in conjunction with TRT? What do you think?

That aligns with the point of this thread: in general less estradiol means more fat. So taking an AI would conflict with a goal of fat loss. Also, the general feeling around here is that an AI should be avoided unless estradiol is known to be high and you're having symptoms.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 56, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T cyptionate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid, 7.5 mg preg. orally qd
5/2017 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL (348-1197), FT: 16 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 50 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0), DHEA-S: 278 ug/dL (71.6-375.4)

climber389

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2017, 06:56:55 am »
Is it possible that the difference in body fat isn't actually due to estradiol, but rather a side effect of the aromatase inhibitor itself (or the lack of aromatase)? Does an aromatase inhibitor only effect estradiol levels and nothing else?

Seems to be a logical conclusion, but wouldn't be the first time they got causation wrong.

Cataceous

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2017, 07:17:41 am »
Is it possible that the difference in body fat isn't actually due to estradiol, but rather a side effect of the aromatase inhibitor itself (or the lack of aromatase)? ...

No, the effect is observed in the cohort without an aromatase inhibitor. Within this cohort there were groups with five levels of testosterone, and estradiol would correlate with the amount of testosterone. The three groups with the lowest estradiol gained fat; the group with the highest estradiol lost fat. The cohort using an aromatase inhibitor then demonstrated that the effect depended on estradiol and not testosterone.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 56, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T cyptionate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid, 7.5 mg preg. orally qd
5/2017 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL (348-1197), FT: 16 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 50 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0), DHEA-S: 278 ug/dL (71.6-375.4)

Boxcar

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2017, 11:24:20 am »
This is anecdotal, but Dr. Saya mentioned a MTF transgender patient whose testosterone actually went up a bit as exogenous estradiol built up in the body.  Obesity is definitely associated with low testosterone, but estradiol may not be the most important reason for that.

My body comp does seem to be improving more without an AI, although it is hard to say for sure that is the reason.
Age: 36
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Current Treatment: 50 mg testosterone cypionate IM, twice a week
Low T Symptoms: Chronic pelvic pain, and other neuropathic pain.  Mild anxiety, low energy and low motivation
Meds: Amitriptyline (for pain, not depression), Clonidine (for sleep, not blood pressure)

Joe Sixpack

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2017, 05:58:17 pm »
Quote
... we found that lean mass, muscle size, and strength are regulated by androgens; fat accumulation is primarily a consequence of estrogen deficiency; and sexual function is regulated by both androgens and estrogens.

So lack of estrogen leads to fat. The details:

I''m having a hard time squaring that statement with the idea that I have always heard.  That idea is that women have a hard time losing fat because they have higher estrogen.  That higher estrogen is making these females store more fat due to higher estrogen.  These studies seem to be saying that women should be much leaner than they are, because they have higher estrogen.   
Age: 55, Ht: 5'08", Wt: 150 lbs
Protocol: 35mg T Cyp 3x/week, 300 IU hCG 3x/week, 50mg DHEA + 50mg Pregnenalone daily.
1/2017 test results: TT: 1152 ng/dL (348-1197), FT: 23.7 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 22.0 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0)

Boxcar

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2017, 06:38:12 pm »
Quote
... we found that lean mass, muscle size, and strength are regulated by androgens; fat accumulation is primarily a consequence of estrogen deficiency; and sexual function is regulated by both androgens and estrogens.

So lack of estrogen leads to fat. The details:

I''m having a hard time squaring that statement with the idea that I have always heard.  That idea is that women have a hard time losing fat because they have higher estrogen.  That higher estrogen is making these females store more fat due to higher estrogen.  These studies seem to be saying that women should be much leaner than they are, because they have higher estrogen.

Higher testosterone is associated with lower body fat in men.  So that probably explains why women have a lot more body fat, on average, than men.

Edit:  Check out the second graph on this page:  http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/01/intermittent-thoughts-on-building_02.html  As you can see, body fat goes down as you inject men with more testosterone.  The size of the effect is greatest as you go from hypogonadal levels to mid-range normal levels.  Since women have even less testosterone than most hypogonadal men, it is no surprise that they struggle more with body fat.  They may benefit from higher average estradiol and growth hormone... but that's swamped by the massive effect of testosterone.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 06:53:03 pm by Boxcar »
Age: 36
178 lbs 5'8''

Current Treatment: 50 mg testosterone cypionate IM, twice a week
Low T Symptoms: Chronic pelvic pain, and other neuropathic pain.  Mild anxiety, low energy and low motivation
Meds: Amitriptyline (for pain, not depression), Clonidine (for sleep, not blood pressure)

Cataceous

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2017, 07:04:02 pm »
Quote
... we found that lean mass, muscle size, and strength are regulated by androgens; fat accumulation is primarily a consequence of estrogen deficiency; and sexual function is regulated by both androgens and estrogens.

So lack of estrogen leads to fat. The details:

I''m having a hard time squaring that statement with the idea that I have always heard.  That idea is that women have a hard time losing fat because they have higher estrogen.  That higher estrogen is making these females store more fat due to higher estrogen.  These studies seem to be saying that women should be much leaner than they are, because they have higher estrogen.

As is often the case, things are more complicated than we've "always heard." This article argues that the assumed connection between weight gain and estrogen is caused by thyroid influences:

Quote
The mechanism by which estrogen causes weight gain is through inhibiting thyroid function. In a normal-weight woman, estrogen and thyroid hormone play off of each other in an intricate balance.

Yet when a woman becomes overweight, her estrogen levels drive her thyroid function relentlessly downward.  ...

But the same article goes on to say that "estrogen is actually a crucial factor in weight loss."

Quote
1) Estrogen decreases the activity of fat-absorption within a cell.  It does this by decreasing the activity of lipoprotein lipase (LPL). LPL is an enzyme which favors fat uptake into the cells, so having estrogen around inside of a cell helps prevent it from growing larger.

2) Estrogen increases the activity of another enzyme called hormone sensitive lipase (HSL).  HSL is the other big player in regulating a woman’s fat metabolism.   Epinephrine stimulates HSL, and then HSL incites lipolysis, which is a fancy word for the breakdown of fat. HSL activity occurs most commonly in exercise.   So, what estrogen is doing in a sense is making this exercise phenomenon more powerful and occur more often.  During aerobic exercise, increased body temperature and a greater concentration of epinephrine in the blood stream enhances HSL responsiveness to epinephrine.  This then triggers the fat-breakdown activity of HSL.
...
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 56, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T cyptionate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid, 7.5 mg preg. orally qd
5/2017 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL (348-1197), FT: 16 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 50 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0), DHEA-S: 278 ug/dL (71.6-375.4)

Cataceous

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2017, 07:23:23 pm »
Here's a paper where they looked at hormonal influences on visceral fat and differences between the sexes. In women, visceral fat is associated with too little estradiol relative to testosterone.

Quote
... In conclusion, in obese premenopausal women, visceral fat predominance seems to be related to a relatively increased androgenicity. In obese men, sex steroid levels appear not to depend on the amount of visceral fat. In obese women, but not in obese men, visceral fat loss seems to be accompanied by a relative reduction in androgenicity.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 56, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T cyptionate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid, 7.5 mg preg. orally qd
5/2017 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL (348-1197), FT: 16 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 50 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0), DHEA-S: 278 ug/dL (71.6-375.4)

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Re: Low Estradiol Can Lead to Bodyfat Increases
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2017, 07:23:23 pm »