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General Category => Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health => Topic started by: Boxcar on August 16, 2016, 09:34:57 pm

Title: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: Boxcar on August 16, 2016, 09:34:57 pm
Has anyone else had this issue? I am consistently getting only 0.7 ml of cypionate out of those little 1 ml vials that my pharmacy gives me.  I am using 1 ml syringes, injecting twice a week.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: kcrunner on August 16, 2016, 09:40:11 pm
Has anyone else had this issue? I am consistently getting only 0.7 ml of cypionate out of those little 1 ml vials that my pharmacy gives me.  I am using 1 ml syringes, injecting twice a week.

Any ideas?

Are you drawing with a big needle?  Some can be lost there.   Also, unless you do the air bubble method, on a slip tip syringe, you will lose about .1 ml per draw.   
Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: Boxcar on August 16, 2016, 10:12:31 pm
Has anyone else had this issue? I am consistently getting only 0.7 ml of cypionate out of those little 1 ml vials that my pharmacy gives me.  I am using 1 ml syringes, injecting twice a week.

Any ideas?

Are you drawing with a big needle?  Some can be lost there.   Also, unless you do the air bubble method, on a slip tip syringe, you will lose about .1 ml per draw.

I draw and inject with the same needle - 25 gauge, 5/8''.  Of course, there is also some cypionate which stays in the space between the needle and the plunger.  Neither my Doctor nor the nurse who showed me how to inject have mentioned the air bubble technique.  Do most guys do this?  Maybe I should try the technique.
Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: Boxcar on August 16, 2016, 11:30:51 pm
This article by Defy supports kcrunner's point that there is a loss of 0.1 ml with each injection.

http://defymedical.com/blog/item/12-why-some-men-run-out-of-their-injectable-testosterone-before-the-next-refill

But the experiment mentioned in the article was using 3 ml syringes.  It was suggested that switching to 1 ml syringes would solve the problem, but it doesn't sound like they actually tested the 1 ml syringes for loss.  I seem to be getting almost the same loss with the 1 ml syringes (BD brand, if that matters).
Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: Joe Sixpack on August 18, 2016, 02:24:15 am
Defy sent me Exel brand syringes with my cypionate order. With Exel, I have a significant amount of product left over in the tip of the syringe every time I inject.  The Exel's have the luer lock tip so you can put any size gauge needle on it you want.  In contrast, I have also ordered 27 gauge syringes from Defy.  Don't remember what brand they are.  But the 27's are not luer lock and not interchangeable and I lose very little product. 

This is important to me because I inject cypionate and HCG every other day.  I can't afford the kind of waste that the Exel syringes cause. 
Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: Hydranted on August 18, 2016, 08:30:49 am
Defy sent me Exel brand syringes with my cypionate order. With Exel, I have a significant amount of product left over in the tip of the syringe every time I inject.  The Exel's have the luer lock tip so you can put any size gauge needle on it you want.  In contrast, I have also ordered 27 gauge syringes from Defy.  Don't remember what brand they are.  But the 27's are not luer lock and not interchangeable and I lose very little product. 

This is important to me because I inject cypionate and HCG every other day.  I can't afford the kind of waste that the Exel syringes cause.


This issue can be mitigated by using insulin syringes with a fixed needle.  There is no needle hub, so there's virtually no dead space in which oil can become trapped.

Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: Boxcar on August 18, 2016, 07:20:10 pm
Defy sent me Exel brand syringes with my cypionate order. With Exel, I have a significant amount of product left over in the tip of the syringe every time I inject.  The Exel's have the luer lock tip so you can put any size gauge needle on it you want.  In contrast, I have also ordered 27 gauge syringes from Defy.  Don't remember what brand they are.  But the 27's are not luer lock and not interchangeable and I lose very little product. 

This is important to me because I inject cypionate and HCG every other day.  I can't afford the kind of waste that the Exel syringes cause.


This issue can be mitigated by using insulin syringes with a fixed needle.  There is no needle hub, so there's virtually no dead space in which oil can become trapped.

It looks like all of the insulin syringes/needles have low dead space, so the guys on sub q are all set.  For IM, it is surprisingly difficult to find low dead space syringes (which basically have a "male" plunger that extends into the dead space).  There are also needles designed to have low dead space, which can be used with any syringe, although they seem less common.  There's a good wiki article, if anyone is interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_dead_space_syringe

I tried the air bubble method, "injecting" vegetable oil into the sink.  It did not work so well -- even with a small air bubble, air would shoot out the end and still leave a lot of oil clinging to the walls of the dead space. 

So it looks like I am off to find low dead space syringes. I am surprised that more people don't have this issue. Even injecting only once a week (ie, two injections per 1ml vial), the loss was very noticeable when I went to do the second injection.
Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: Hydranted on August 19, 2016, 12:01:18 am
Defy sent me Exel brand syringes with my cypionate order. With Exel, I have a significant amount of product left over in the tip of the syringe every time I inject.  The Exel's have the luer lock tip so you can put any size gauge needle on it you want.  In contrast, I have also ordered 27 gauge syringes from Defy.  Don't remember what brand they are.  But the 27's are not luer lock and not interchangeable and I lose very little product. 

This is important to me because I inject cypionate and HCG every other day.  I can't afford the kind of waste that the Exel syringes cause.


This issue can be mitigated by using insulin syringes with a fixed needle.  There is no needle hub, so there's virtually no dead space in which oil can become trapped.



It looks like all of the insulin syringes/needles have low dead space, so the guys on sub q are all set.  For IM, it is surprisingly difficult to find low dead space syringes (which basically have a "male" plunger that extends into the dead space).  There are also needles designed to have low dead space, which can be used with any syringe, although they seem less common.  There's a good wiki article, if anyone is interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_dead_space_syringe

I tried the air bubble method, "injecting" vegetable oil into the sink.  It did not work so well -- even with a small air bubble, air would shoot out the end and still leave a lot of oil clinging to the walls of the dead space. 

So it looks like I am off to find low dead space syringes. I am surprised that more people don't have this issue. Even injecting only once a week (ie, two injections per 1ml vial), the loss was very noticeable when I went to do the second injection.



I use insulin syringes to inject intramuscularly. 

Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: Boxcar on August 19, 2016, 01:39:39 am
I use insulin syringes to inject intramuscularly.

What would you suggest for IM quad injections?  My doctor has me using 5/8'' needles.  1/2'' is the longest I have seen on an insulin syringe, which is why I assumed that it would not work.

I would appreciate any advice!
Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: Osprey on August 19, 2016, 06:27:59 pm
Try a tuberculin syringe, they're available as 5/8" 25g.
Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: Boxcar on August 19, 2016, 10:08:38 pm
Try a tuberculin syringe, they're available as 5/8" 25g.

Thanks, I just ordered some of those, designated as "low dead space."

Also, I measured the dead space in my usual setup (injected dyed water into the sink, then pulled back the plunger to measure).  I came up with 0.075 ml of loss.  Multiplied by my four injections and that equals the 0.3 ml of loss I am experiencing.
Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: PeakT on August 21, 2016, 03:44:08 pm
I split out a bunch of great discussion on 5/16 inch needles and the best brands, etc.:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=10797.0
Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: Boxcar on August 21, 2016, 10:18:31 pm
BTW, you guys are great -- I really appreciate everyone's help with this. 

What's disappointing is just how clueless my doctor and pharmacists are about a technical issue with such a straightforward explanation and solution.  This reinforces just how much the patient is on his own with all this.  And this would have been even more complicated if needles and syringes had not been made available without a prescription.  It wouldn't be much fun to go back to my doctor and basically tell him: "you're wrong, now write me a prescription for syringes based on something I read on the internet."

What's especially kafkaesque is that this is only a big issue because of restrictions on controlled substances (ie, I can't refill my prescription 10 days early, as with everything else).  The restrictions meant to protect me from intentionally abusing the medication are instead preventing me from taking the medication as prescribed.  And the response of everyone involved is 'sorry, my hands are tied here.'

You know the system is screwed up when medical providors are more concerned with running afoul of the law than giving a patient proper care.  I'll stop there, before this turns into a rant against the nanny state.  ;)
Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: 53chevy on August 22, 2016, 06:13:01 am
This will probably be frowned upon but this is what I did before switching to sub q with an insulin syringe (been doing that for a month now) ......I was using 25 g 1.5" luer lok and I would inject in the butt then once the needle was out of my body I would pull the plunger back (there's about .1-.15 waste) and let it sit upside down for a few minutes so everything would drain back into the syringe then take the needle off and put a fresh one on and store it in the medicine cabinet. I had no choice or I would run out every month doing twice a week injections. Glad I went to sub q with an insulin syringe. I've actually upped my dose a little since going with insulin syringes and it looks like I'm going to make it til I get a refill.
Title: Re: Only 0.7 ml of Cypionate in 1 ml Vials
Post by: PeakT on August 22, 2016, 04:35:25 pm
This will probably be frowned upon but this is what I did before switching to sub q with an insulin syringe (been doing that for a month now) ......I was using 25 g 1.5" luer lok and I would inject in the butt then once the needle was out of my body I would pull the plunger back (there's about .1-.15 waste) and let it sit upside down for a few minutes so everything would drain back into the syringe then take the needle off and put a fresh one on and store it in the medicine cabinet. I had no choice or I would run out every month doing twice a week injections. Glad I went to sub q with an insulin syringe. I've actually upped my dose a little since going with insulin syringes and it looks like I'm going to make it til I get a refill.

Not worth it.  Talk to your doc and tell him what you're doing and work with him/her.  You should not have to do that.