Peak Testosterone Forum

General Category => Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health => Topic started by: Blade78 on April 04, 2013, 09:51:14 am

Title: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 04, 2013, 09:51:14 am

I just got bored and watched Knives over Forks.....I dont eat anything other than eggwhites that are from animals....I dont worry about myself and cancer., bu I worry about my parents, now both 65

in tbe movie,. Dr Esselstyn  says how he learned the info to write his book...via the China Study and research

but NO animal protein?
so I need to stop eating eggwhites..
he goes into 2 parts about protein
1 how without it, you will die...you don't need carbs(sugar) or fat as much as you must have protein
2 he showed a graph that showed how much animal protein was consumed in a country and then a graph next to it of cancer in that country
the graphs were all about identical, cept the cancer graph was 20% taller

I found this high yield facts about the diet and the biggest concern I have is EGGWHITEs? no eggwhites....I'd better start eating rice protein and get my protein elsewhere....dang it??

The Esselstyn Rules:

    No meat, no poultry, no fish--not even salmon
    No dairy of any kind--not even skim milk or non-fat yogurt.
   No eggs--not even egg whites or Egg Beaters
    No oil--not even virgin olive oil or canola oil
    Aim for 100% Whole Grain products. Ingredients must say, Whole Wheat, or Whole Buckwheat, Whole Rye,etc. 100% stone-ground wheat is not Whole Wheat unless the word Whole appears.  Forget about semolina flour in pasta.  Forget about white rice.  I thought my Barilla Plus multigrain pasta was fantastic--turns out, semolina is the number one ingredient.
    Do not drink juice. Fruit is fine.  A little juice used to saute, or season recipes or for salad dressings is fine
    Do not eat nuts, even walnuts, unless you do not have heart disease.
    Do not eat avocados, if you have heart disease.
    Do not eat coconut, if you have heart disease.
    Eat soy products cautiously.  They are high in fat (40% +) and many are highly processed.  Only use Lite Tofu (like Mori-Nu or NaSoya Lite Firm Tofu).  I also use Soy Boy Organic 5 Grain Low Fat Tempeh.
    Reduce sugar as much as possible.  When you do use it for recipes, stick to the more unprocessed varieties.  But don't fool yourself, maple syrup, agave, and ho

http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com/happy_healthy_long_life/2011/08/15-months.html
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Cronos on April 04, 2013, 01:24:23 pm
He even says no smoothies are aloud either on his website. Personally I do think esselstyn goes a bit to far. Yes he says 10% fat from calories which is good. Yes his methods work. But so does ornish's which does include egg whites and fish oil, even a little dairy, which according to esselstyn is complete blasphemy on all three of those.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 04, 2013, 03:08:26 pm
Well, the advantage to the Esselstyn program is that he has proven it works in many patients and it is similar to Ornish, whose studies corroborate.

However, Esselstyn's program is fairly "extreme" - actually "strict" is probably a better word - imo in the following sense:  the supersupercultures all had a little bit of meat.  Furthermore, primates in general have a little bit of animal protein.  So a little bit seems to be part of our history.

Now I am sure that the argument for Esselstyn's strictness is that the supersupercultures have no individuals in their society with advanced arteriosclerosis, hypertension, etc.  So our disease states demand a very strict plant-based diet.

There is a counterargument to that and one that you guys may not be aware of:  Nathan Pritikin.  Pritikin ate some meat and died with pristine arteries even though he did not begin eating Low Fat until about age 40.  This is quite remarkable when you stop to think about it.

It's interesting, because I was just emailing someone about this same subject.  He was a Low Fat guy who found that eating a strict Esselstyn-like Diet was just too difficult for him.  So I suggested he look into Pritikin's life and he seemed relieved.

And to be clear:  I have only the utmost respect for Dr. Esselstyn's work.  As they say, "You can't argue with success." 
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: haole on April 04, 2013, 07:49:22 pm
Pritkin committed suicide though.  Now he had restarted chemotherapy for the leukemia, you have to wonder though if his diet had an impact on his mental health at all. 

I think there are always tradeoffs, and it may be prudent to look at at multiple aspects of health.

Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Cronos on April 04, 2013, 08:06:55 pm
I don't think one can make those kinds of assumptions. His leukemia was in remission for 20 years yet he was convinced to undergo chemo. Then he had liver and kidney damage. Went for a second opinion the doc said their was no hope that he would die quite soon. I think most of us would mentally unstable given the circumstances.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 04, 2013, 08:56:13 pm
Pritkin committed suicide though.  Now he had restarted chemotherapy for the leukemia, you have to wonder though if his diet had an impact on his mental health at all. 

I think there are always tradeoffs, and it may be prudent to look at at multiple aspects of health.

Well, I would argue that he simply ate like most of the supersupercultures and they live into their 90's in nearly perfect mental and physical health.  So I really doubt it. 

But I know where you are headed (I think):  one of the common things you read is that the brain is packed with cholesterol and thus a Low Fat Diet can lead to poor mental health.  This goes against some study work which shows Low Fat beat Low Carb for example:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Food_Appetite_Neurotransmitters

Of course, each person knows how they feel better/worse, but the studies just deal with average.

What is also int'g about the above argument is that Paleo/Low Carb people always argue that consuming cholesterol does not matter because our body manufacturers almost all the cholesterol we need.  So I feel that they are speaking out of both sides of their mouth when they say that in the case of the brain the body cannot manufacture all the cholesterol it needs, especially in light of the evidence to the contrary.

Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: haole on April 04, 2013, 09:14:58 pm
No agenda :)  I've noticed my wife's mood is up some after her cleaning up her diet. Weird thing to discuss on a testosterone forum but her menustral cramps have lessened as her use of fish oil and vitamin d has increased.

I remember reading a researcher noticed he got better at math, when he was eating more fat:

http://quantifiedself.com/2010/10/will-butter-make-you-smarter-i/

Again no agenda, it appears though the body is a complex system with a lot of interrelated feedback systems.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 04, 2013, 10:01:09 pm
No agenda :)  I've noticed my wife's mood is up some after her cleaning up her diet. Weird thing to discuss on a testosterone forum but her menustral cramps have lessened as her use of fish oil and vitamin d has increased.

I remember reading a researcher noticed he got better at math, when he was eating more fat:

http://quantifiedself.com/2010/10/will-butter-make-you-smarter-i/

Again no agenda, it appears though the body is a complex system with a lot of interrelated feedback systems.

Most importantly, menstual cramps are definitely related to inflammation.  Many women will take an NSAID and get dramatic relief and this is why. 

Sure it possible, but I am still skeptical and here is why:  humans and prehumans have been low fat for virtually all of their existence.  Modern diets with oils and fatty livestock just were not a signifcant part of the fast.  So wouldn't it be pretty weird it consuming a bunch of fat could boost your brain power?  I guess you never know, but there are many signs that higher fat levels are linked to brain dysfunction.  A very interesting one that I have brought up is that one of the root causes of migraine has been found to be fat in the diet.  Most people can get immediate relief from migraines but they just don't want to do it because, well, they love their fat!

See #9: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Migraine_Prevention

Just my two cents...
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 05, 2013, 12:23:15 am

Well, the advantage to the Esselstyn program is that he has proven it works in many patients and it is similar to Ornish, whose studies corroborate.

And to be clear:  I have only the utmost respect for Dr. Esselstyn's work.  As they say, "You can't argue with success."

yes you can argue with success
Here's how to get to Las Vegas: WALK THERE

I walked to las vegas once.....you want to take plane/train/car? NO YOU MUST DO WHAT I DID AND WALK THERE! the success of my journey shows YOU HAVE TO WALK THERE!!!!  makes sense, right?  I got there, therefor YOU MUST WALK THERE

I am confused by the "science" of the FoK movie.
I see the results of the fat people having their arteries de-clogged,but I don't see them being fat with clear arteries, I see that they are thin with clear arteries/
so show me a study where fat people with clogged arteries and half go FoK route and the rest just diet?
I dont see that
In Forks over Knives(FoK)
1.people who ate animal protein  had blocked arteries and generally were fat.
2  fat people got cancer
3 when they lost weight, the arteries/medical issues repaired themselves

-Two things happened via dr E:  1  no more animal protein,  2 people lose weight

so it's then thought that animal protein makes us  have clogged artieries, so make people stop eating animal protein and then the blockages decrease

why am I too assume this has anything to do with the animal protein?  why not just being fat led you to have clogged arteries?
diet and stop being a fatty and you'll not have clogged vessals?
china study showed cancer  happened in wealthy people(who ate meat? and were wealthy)  so the poor people didnt  eat meat and didnt have cancer/blockages

so why is meat the problem? why not wealth?
Dr E/campell say is it because animal protein turns on cancer growth?  so even though eggwhites are fat free, I can't eat them cause they are from an animal?
so so the amino acids I get from eggwhites are different than the ones I get from the safe rice protein?
http://anthonycolpo.com/forks-over-knives-the-latest-vegan-nonsense-dissected-debunked-and-destroyed/
One of Campbell’s pivotal arguments in The China Study, repeated in Forks Over Knives, was research showing that rodents administered aflatoxin were more likely to get cancer if they ate high-protein (20%) diets. According to Campbell, the furry little buggers fed low-protein (5%) diets were less likely to develop malignant tumours. The protein in these diets was derived from casein, one of the two main protein fractions of dairy (whey being the other).
Sounds like a pretty damning indictment of high-protein diets, doesn’t it? Well, at least if you’re dumb enough to overlook the fact that virtually no human derives all his/her protein from casein. And that no human is a rat…physiologically speaking, that is.
And there’s one other teeny weeny detail that Campbell conveniently neglected to mention: the low-protein rats died at an earlier age! No wonder they got less cancer – they didn’t long enough to develop malignant tumours


Ive read lots of those stuff that debunks this stuff
http://anthonycolpo.com/forks-over-knives-the-latest-vegan-nonsense-dissected-debunked-and-destroyed/

I dont see science, I see the same science as in the "it's raining therefor the GODS ARE MAD!"


Compared to the typical modern diet, yes vegetarianism is typically a step forwards. But the modern meat based diets in high in meat, saturated fat and low in fruits, vegetables, etc. Those folks are typically inactive, obese, under a lot of stress, etc.

Now compared that to an athlete eating a lot of leaner cuts of meat, lots of fruits and vegetables, who is active, lean, etc.

I know who I think will be healthier.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 05, 2013, 04:23:01 am
Well, you're pretty much preachin' to the choir on much of what you are saying.  One area where they have a pretty strong case, though, is on the meat to colon cancer connection and of course processed meats as well.  I think the Paleo and Low Carb crowds should slow cook their beef for safety as there is enough evidence for this to make you pause and reflect.

Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 05, 2013, 04:37:50 am
McDougall brings up some interesting arguments regarding animal proteins and I would guess summarizes one side pretty well:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2004nl/040100puproteinoverload.htm

For example, I think you'll want to read his section on the sulfur-containing amino acids and what excess consumption of them can do.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 05, 2013, 04:39:43 am
Well, you're pretty much preachin' to the choir on much of what you are saying.  One area where they have a pretty strong case, though, is on the meat to colon cancer connection and of course processed meats as well.  I think the Paleo and Low Carb crowds should slow cook their beef for safety as there is enough evidence for this to make you pause and reflect.
there are two issues that Im addressing in the Forks over Knives film
1  no eating animal meat will reverse clogged arteries
2 no eating animal meat will reduce/elminate cancer

#1 seems to a bunch of bull, I see no evidence that going vegan will  create clear arteries because you arent eating animal
I see no fat vegans people who have clear arteries

#2 eliminating animal protein will reduce/eliminate cancer....I agree with,
just because of what you said, I do agree with.
the crust of meat, is a great way to start the cancer
or as my biochemistry teacher said

I agree.
I asked my old med school biochemistry teacher for her opinion, she said:

You always ask interesting questions that I don't have easy answers to!  But, I can certainly tell you what I think.

There are studies over the past 25 years that show heterocyclic amines can be formed when muscle meat is cooked.  The amount of these compounds are dependent on cooking time and method. It also appears that their formation requires creatine, which is a molecule found in muscle.  I have not found anything that indicates creatine is found in egg whites.  So, my expectation is that even though egg whites have a lot of protein, it is unlikely that they are generating amounts of heterocylic amines that are found in red meats cooked at high temperatures.  Also, I expect your cooking method is unlikely to generate the HCAs to any great extent because the cooking time is relatively short.

Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 05, 2013, 04:47:29 am
McDougall brings up some interesting arguments regarding animal proteins and I would guess summarizes one side pretty well:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2004nl/040100puproteinoverload.htm

For example, I think you'll want to read his section on the sulfur-containing amino acids and what excess consumption of them can do.
this link does not quote bible verses and just gives facts about how much protein you need, which depends on what you are doing with your weight
losing
gaining muscle
maintaining
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/protein-intake-while-dieting-qa.html
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 05, 2013, 05:39:45 am
Read 2-6 at the bottom.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 05, 2013, 05:48:05 am
Read 2-6 at the bottom.
why not cut/paste what you want me to read so I don't:
-have to go look
-assume what you and are talking about the same point?
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 05, 2013, 01:39:11 pm
Read 2-6 at the bottom.
why not cut/paste what you want me to read so I don't:
-have to go look
-assume what you and are talking about the same point?

Normally, I would but it's a big section and probably copyrighted material.  Trust me on this:  it's the best written passage I've seen on the chemcial differences between animal and plant protein.  I like summaries also, but this has been a burning issue for you - and it's a good one by the way - and he discusses at length with tons of studies the differences between animal and plant proteins. 

Now I will probably still eat my egg whites, which are high in methinione, but his article does make me pause and reflect.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 05, 2013, 01:57:37 pm
Read 2-6 at the bottom.
why not cut/paste what you want me to read so I don't:
-have to go look
-assume what you and are talking about the same point?

Normally, I would but it's a big section and probably copyrighted material.  Trust me on this:  it's the best written passage I've seen on the chemcial differences between animal and plant protein.  I like summaries also, but this has been a burning issue for you - and it's a good one by the way - and he discusses at length with tons of studies the differences between animal and plant proteins. 

Now I will probably still eat my egg whites, which are high in methinione, but his article does make me pause and reflect.

I dont know what section you talking about?
2-6?  I search for that and dont find it,
you can't cut/copy any of it?
I have no idea why you won't.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 05, 2013, 02:04:07 pm
McDougall brings up some interesting arguments regarding animal proteins and I would guess summarizes one side pretty well:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2004nl/040100puproteinoverload.htm

For example, I think you'll want to read his section on the sulfur-containing amino acids and what excess consumption of them can do.
if this is the section you want me to read, I did.
but I don't know, so I won't waste my time commenting on it.
Id think you could say a  keyword or comment about the section you want me to read, but the "2-6" at the bottom of the page, hasnt panned out
this idea of posting reminds me of the movie, Forks over Knives" where they say the reason people love fast food is because people do things by 3 prime directives in the brain
Forks Over Knives. http://www.forksoverknives.com/. The two doctors: 1. We seek pleasure (food, sex). 2. We try to avoid pain. 3. We do everything we can with the least amount of effort – called conservation of energy
you are really conserving energy by not saying anything to lead me to read what you want
 I have other things to do, later


Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 05, 2013, 04:05:31 pm
I'm like you:  I don't like it when people give me big papers to read or videos to watch - wasn't trying to be difficult.  It's just a very big section and I don't feel good about copying it all as I stated.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 05, 2013, 04:18:19 pm
I'm like you:  I don't like it when people give me big papers to read or videos to watch - wasn't trying to be difficult.  It's just a very big section and I don't feel good about copying it all as I stated.
no big deal.....
hey, I found a  book at the library on how to gain muscle/ be younger and be taller, all by doing 3 things
the book is too big to copy/paste, so just head over to the library, I'm sure you'll see it 8)


eh?\\
NO, I cant tell you keywords in the title
no, I cant give you a summary
no, i cant figure out how to  tell you where it is besides saying its at the library...unless the book is checked out....then its not, but I feel good to not give you hints to help you look, seeing as giving you hints would make me NOT FEEL GOOOOOOODDDDD
good luck!
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 05, 2013, 04:23:15 pm

no big deal.....
hey, I found a  book at the library on how to gain muscle/ be younger and be taller, all by doing 3 things
the book is too big to copy/paste, so just head over to the library, I'm sure you'll see it 8)

Remember:  the issue, for you and me anyway, is really whether or not animal protein causes cancer.  Obviously, low fat will protect the cardiovascular system.  Again, McDougall goes into quite a bit of detail about this topic.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 05, 2013, 04:36:59 pm

no big deal.....
hey, I found a  book at the library on how to gain muscle/ be younger and be taller, all by doing 3 things
the book is too big to copy/paste, so just head over to the library, I'm sure you'll see it 8)

Remember:  the issue, for you and me anyway, is really whether or not animal protein causes cancer.  Obviously, low fat will protect the cardiovascular system.  Again, McDougall goes into quite a bit of detail about this topic.

I dont know where you mean, I've made a few suggestions to ask what you are talking about?
no response from you to indicate where to go cept the Mcdougall library and "2-6"
obviously, Im not sure what you are thinking?
but you are like me, trying to do the most with typing the least
obviously, you are better at this than I am
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 05, 2013, 04:41:42 pm

I dont know where you mean, I've made a few suggestions to ask what you are talking about?
no response from you to indicate where to go cept the Mcdougall library and "2-6"
obviously, Im not sure what you are thinking?
but you are like me, trying to do the most with typing the least
obviously, you are better at this than I am

"3) Sulfur feeds cancerous tumors.  Cancer cell metabolism is dependent upon methionine being in the diet; whereas, normal cells can grow on a methionine-free diet (feeding off of other sulfur-containing amino acids).  This methionine-dependency has been demonstrated for breast, lung, colon, kidney, melanoma, and brain cancers.31,32  Increasing methionine in the diet of animals promotes the growth of cancer.33"
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 05, 2013, 05:00:24 pm


"3) Sulfur feeds cancerous tumors.  Cancer cell metabolism is dependent upon methionine being in the diet; whereas, normal cells can grow on a methionine-free diet (feeding off of other sulfur-containing amino acids).  This methionine-dependency has been demonstrated for breast, lung, colon, kidney, melanoma, and brain cancers.31,32  Increasing methionine in the diet of animals promotes the growth of cancer.33"
edited my post much?

I dont know how much I buy into this for 2 reasons:

1. I dont see evidence to support this, if there was evidence, that would be highlighted and not just a footnote as a study done that proves the thesis, "that animal protein is bad over plant protein"
that would be what Forks over knives was about, not about how dieting  helps people stop being fat.

2, as I cited a problem with the Forks over knives  mouse study
http://anthonycolpo.com/forks-over-knives-the-latest-vegan-nonsense-dissected-debunked-and-destroyed/
One of Campbell’s pivotal arguments in The China Study, repeated in Forks Over Knives, was research showing that rodents administered aflatoxin were more likely to get cancer if they ate high-protein (20%) diets. According to Campbell, the furry little buggers fed low-protein (5%) diets were less likely to develop malignant tumours. The protein in these diets was derived from casein, one of the two main protein fractions of dairy (whey being the other).
Sounds like a pretty damning indictment of high-protein diets, doesn’t it? Well, at least if you’re dumb enough to overlook the fact that virtually no human derives all his/her protein from casein. And that no human is a rat…physiologically speaking, that is.
And there’s one other teeny weeny detail that Campbell conveniently neglected to mention: the low-protein rats died at an earlier age! No wonder they got less cancer – they didn’t long enough to develop malignant tumours



Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 05, 2013, 05:35:03 pm
You're acting like I'm definitely saying that animal protein causes cancer.  I am not.  I am simply saying that it may in some cases and am just giving you some of the information so that you can decide for yourself.  My own personal feelings is that it probably does not assuming one has a good lifestyle (lots of fruits/veges, exercise, low fat, etc.)  But that's just a guess.

One thing you can do is to actually measure, for example, your IGF-1.  See if it looks high.

And, yes, I just remove the whiney posts now - it makes the forum look weird - and I've told you I am going to do that.  You have a lot of great ideas, but almost everyone who shows up here wants a non-dysfunctional, non-dramatic forum. 
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 05, 2013, 11:15:40 pm
You're acting like I'm definitely saying that animal protein causes cancer.  I am not.  I am simply saying that it may in some cases and am just giving you some of the information so that you can decide for yourself.  My own personal feelings is that it probably does not assuming one has a good lifestyle (lots of fruits/veges, exercise, low fat, etc.)  But that's just a guess.

One thing you can do is to actually measure, for example, your IGF-1.  See if it looks high.

And, yes, I just remove the whiney posts now - it makes the forum look weird - and I've told you I am going to do that.  You have a lot of great ideas, but almost everyone who shows up here wants a non-dysfunctional, non-dramatic forum.

I wasnt directing my critic of what .dr.mcdougall said/wrote, at you.
It was my breakdown of what he said/advocated.
3) Sulfur feeds cancerous tumors.  Cancer cell metabolism is dependent upon methionine being in the diet
my other thought about his claim that sulfur is that I'm pretty sure humans have been eating meat(sulfur amino acids) since they started going through evolution.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120420105539.htm
Apr. 19, 2012 — Carnivory is behind the evolutionary success of humankind. When early humans started to eat meat and eventually hunt, their new, higher-quality diet meant that women could wean their children earlier.

so have humans always been eating a carcinogenic die, ie sulfur-containing amino acids?
if I had solid evidence that soda causes cancer, i'd show that front and center.....so his "proof"/citations of proof about sulfur-containing amino acids seems to be untrue.
Im all for eating plant protein and not eating meat/eggs. I already dont eat meat, I just question what he's saying and I question aloud so I can be corrected, if possible. :)
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 06, 2013, 12:53:46 am


I wasnt directing my critic of what .dr.mcdougall said/wrote, at you.
It was my breakdown of what he said/advocated.
3) Sulfur feeds cancerous tumors.  Cancer cell metabolism is dependent upon methionine being in the diet
my other thought about his claim that sulfur is that I'm pretty sure humans have been eating meat(sulfur amino acids) since they started going through evolution.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120420105539.htm
Apr. 19, 2012 — Carnivory is behind the evolutionary success of humankind. When early humans started to eat meat and eventually hunt, their new, higher-quality diet meant that women could wean their children earlier.

so have humans always been eating a carcinogenic die, ie sulfur-containing amino acids?
if I had solid evidence that soda causes cancer, i'd show that front and center.....so his "proof"/citations of proof about sulfur-containing amino acids seems to be untrue.
Im all for eating plant protein and not eating meat/eggs. I already dont eat meat, I just question what he's saying and I question aloud so I can be corrected, if possible. :)

First of all, we pretty much agree.  However, I disagree with what I think you are saying when you stated "Carnivory is behind the evolutionary success of humankind."  I do agree that animal products and some animal protein has been in the diet for just about forever.  But it is one thing to eat a few bugs and an egg during a day and ingest a pound of bacon, dairy and meat as many, many health-conscious people do on Low Carb and Paleo Diets.  Yes, we are clearly built to easily handle the former, but the latter is not so obvious.

Time will tell.  Hopefully, they will start doing mortality and other similar studies on these type of diets so that we can get a much better gauge.  Right now it's all guesswork and thus all the arguing.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 06, 2013, 03:43:07 pm
First of all, we pretty much agree.  However, I disagree with what I think you are saying when you stated "Carnivory is behind the evolutionary success of humankind."  I do agree that animal products and some animal protein has been in the diet for just about forever. But it is one thing to eat a few bugs and an egg during a day and ingest a pound of bacon, dairy and meat as many, many health-conscious people do on Low Carb and Paleo Diets.  Yes, we are clearly built to easily handle the former, but the latter is not so obvious.

Time will tell.  Hopefully, they will start doing mortality and other similar studies on these type of diets so that we can get a much better gauge.  Right now it's all guesswork and thus all the arguing.
our bodies can only work with so much damage
we get cancer cells because all the safeguards against cancer fail, at least once.
so it would make sense to reduce the damage we are doing to our bodies in areas where we know we are causing damage/making our bodies work to not get cancer,(like eating HCAs from meat. our bodies work to prevent this from causing cancer)
so if I can take anti-cancer helpers(antioxidants in form of veggies/fruit) and avoid the stuff that will accumulate and cause me problems(maybe) at some point(fat, fluoride, excitotoxins, etc) then I will
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 06, 2013, 06:16:59 pm

First of all, we pretty much agree.  However, I disagree with what I think you are saying when you stated "Carnivory is behind the evolutionary success of humankind."
curious as to why you think differently?
hunting meat allowed humans to stop being gatherers and go get real calories
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120420105539.htm
Learning to hunt was a decisive step in human evolution. Hunting necessitated communication, planning and the use of tools, all of which demanded a larger brain. At the same time, adding meat to the diet made it possible to develop this larger brain.

"This has been known for a long time. However, no one has previously shown the strong connection between meat eating and the duration of breast-feeding, which is a crucial piece of the puzzle in this context. Eating meat enabled the breast-feeding periods and thereby the time between births, to be shortened. This must have had a crucial impact on human evolution," says Elia Psouni of Lund University

Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 06, 2013, 08:18:55 pm

First of all, we pretty much agree.  However, I disagree with what I think you are saying when you stated "Carnivory is behind the evolutionary success of humankind."
curious as to why you think differently?
hunting meat allowed humans to stop being gatherers and go get real calories
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120420105539.htm
Learning to hunt was a decisive step in human evolution. Hunting necessitated communication, planning and the use of tools, all of which demanded a larger brain. At the same time, adding meat to the diet made it possible to develop this larger brain.

"This has been known for a long time. However, no one has previously shown the strong connection between meat eating and the duration of breast-feeding, which is a crucial piece of the puzzle in this context. Eating meat enabled the breast-feeding periods and thereby the time between births, to be shortened. This must have had a crucial impact on human evolution," says Elia Psouni of Lund University

Sure.  But my point is that this did not happen until very late in our history:

https://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1166.msg10773#msg10773

Thus, this very likely accounts for a pretty small part of our genome.  Our teeth and GI tract do a good job of revealing the percentages as well.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: haole on April 06, 2013, 09:10:09 pm
As Americans and Europeans and most of modern man, were off the seasonal/regional eating, with some periods of scarcity.  We pretty much have all the calories we want all the time. Eating in moderation and control seems to be critical.  Restricting methionine does appear to have some promise for life extension at least in rats. 

I would imagine controlling blood sugar probably has a similar protective effect against cancer.

Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: PeakT on April 06, 2013, 10:18:52 pm
I would imagine controlling blood sugar probably has a similar protective effect against cancer.

Smart man.  This is a biggee against many forms of cancer...
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 06, 2013, 10:35:39 pm
I would imagine controlling blood sugar probably has a similar protective effect against cancer.

Smart man.  This is a biggee against many forms of cancer...
I wonder if I should go a day a week without eating at all. ie, fast, as in what caveman watchntv had to deal with sometimes
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: haole on April 06, 2013, 10:49:12 pm
I do occasional intermittent fasts, I lifted fasted today and it ended up being 15 hours between meals.  I will sooner or later do a 24 hour fast here or there, but can't personally see myself ever willingly fasting longer than 24-36 hours.
Title: Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
Post by: Blade78 on April 07, 2013, 12:39:00 am
I do occasional intermittent fasts, I lifted fasted today and it ended up being 15 hours between meals.  I will sooner or later do a 24 hour fast here or there, but can't personally see myself ever willingly fasting longer than 24-36 hours.
I agree with that...I'm not sure about results to expect....I wish I knew more about this topic, but when people refer to a diet of "paleo" (lots of undercooked, fatty meats and sparingly fruit/veggies?)  they also must include days where paleo man at nothing.
right?