Peak Testosterone Forum

General Category => Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health => Topic started by: Blade78 on April 15, 2013, 11:25:33 am

Title: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: Blade78 on April 15, 2013, 11:25:33 am

Dare you doubt his superpowers?

I question a lot of stuff.....which I attribute to high testosterone

I have a friend who labels behavior of men as, "he has...low testosterone/high testosterone."
 
Which I'm sure actually makes a difference.  I know I'm different than I was in 2010-2012 because then I was fat and likely had low to low/normal testosterone.
Why was my testosterone low/low-normal? 
I wasnt happy about my life, I was trying to get over a crappy GF, I felt lost in life,  My medical school lied to me and thus I had more work to do in life, or as I see it, more punishment by the school.
oh, I was fat, ie 30++% bodyfat and I was very much an addict to my daily  getting my fix from highly processed food.

so what changed??

I stopped eating  crap food so I could lose weight to win a contest(winning!)
I lost weight,(bodyfat ~18%),
stopped eating processed foods and addditives
started getting results in the gym
then I stopped using my SSRI(bupropion) I didnt think I needed it
decide to take better control of my life(eating is the biggest control you have in life)

so I wonder what science there is, if any, behind how men act/say and their testosterone levels?
-do guys who just approach women have high testosterone?
- do men who just learn easily have high test.?
etc

Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: PeakT on April 15, 2013, 03:47:59 pm

so I wonder what science there is, if any, behind how men act/say and their testosterone levels?
-do guys who just approach women have high testosterone?
- do men who just learn easily have high test.?
etc

Well, you've seen the rocket trip that some of the guys have described on here.  It can really effect the brain, especially in men that go from 200 to 800.
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: Blade78 on April 15, 2013, 04:22:35 pm

Well, you've seen the rocket trip that some of the guys have described on here.  It can really effect the brain, especially in men that go from 200 to 800.
I know about their health, etc
I want to know about their behavior, I only have mine to examine/judge
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: PeakT on April 15, 2013, 05:06:30 pm
If you look through the studies on this subject, it's hard to come up with hard and fast rules.  But my summary of what I think is the following:

1.  Low and lowish testosterone:  male is irritable; mental fog; thinking and learning is impaired; anxiety is increased; mood is decreased so depression is more likely.  And if erectile dysfunction:  panic sets in as his only reasonable source of dopamine is squashed.

2.  Medium and medium high testosterone:  man is much relaxed; able to think clearly; life is good.

3.  Overly high testosterone:  man is "wired"; tends to get aggressive; temper can flare; overly alert.  And when I say "overly high", I'm usually referring to usually what comes out of HRT type of situations.  It's pretty rare for a guy in this 30's and beyond to have this level of testosterone naturally. 

By the way, all of the above is assuming that estradiol is managed.  If estradiol is out of control, it can negate everything above.

Now, as far as health, it's hard to beat the insulin-lowering and weight-controlling properties of testosterone if you ask me.  But they really need to do more mortality work to get a better feel for this.
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: Sam on April 15, 2013, 05:21:43 pm
There was a study I saw today that 45% of Billionaires were in the top 1% of cognitive ability.   It would be interesting to see their Testosterone levels.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/billionaires-just-smarter-rest-us-125714709.html
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: PeakT on April 15, 2013, 05:27:34 pm
There was a study I saw today that 45% of Billionaires were in the top 1% of cognitive ability.   It would be interesting to see their Testosterone levels.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/billionaires-just-smarter-rest-us-125714709.html

Well, there is probably something to this, but I'm not sure I buy into the idea that admission into elite schools is a great predictor of top intelligence levels.  Maybe I'm wrong there...
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: 399 on April 15, 2013, 08:04:36 pm
there is a book out now called "the hour between dog and wolf: risk taking, gut feelings, and the biology of boom and bust" written by a former wall street trader who went back to get a neuroscience phd because he wanted to study the idea that the typical "greed and fear" responses of traders had physical as much as mental causes.  not to summarize the book, but what he found was that traders' testosterone rises when they are winning and their cortisol rises when they are losing.  both by a lot.  its an interesting read that relates to a lot of what we talk about on this board.  i am in the middle of it but not ready to review.

but i bring this up because based on his research, i would wager that billionaires, at least self-made ones, have much higher than average testosterone levels due to the feedback mechanisms of winning described in this book
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: JackAndy on April 17, 2013, 10:56:51 am
There was a study I saw today that 45% of Billionaires were in the top 1% of cognitive ability.   It would be interesting to see their Testosterone levels.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/billionaires-just-smarter-rest-us-125714709.html
but i bring this up because based on his research, i would wager that billionaires, at least self-made ones, have much higher than average testosterone levels due to the feedback mechanisms of winning described in this book

I don't mean to step on anyone's toes but this is just another way that the rich are trying to justify the reasons why they are so rich. The fact that someone is rich has very little to do with their own merits and a lot more to do with political and social arrangements. Don't be fooled by stuff like this. This kind of pseudoscience was the foundation for German nationalism, Jim Crow laws, for the creation of a racial hierarchy which justified colonization and eugenics. When you try and imply causation between a group of people's success and natural, inborn characteristics which are unchangeable, you're playing with fire. The truth is that these tests are always biased. There is no real reason for kings to be kings, for rich to be rich or for second-class citizens to be second-class. We are all created different, but equal.
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: Blade78 on April 17, 2013, 11:23:40 am
The fact that someone is rich has very little to do with their own merits and a lot more to do with political and social arrangements. Don't be fooled by stuff like this. This kind of pseudoscience was the foundation for German nationalism, Jim Crow laws, for the creation of a racial hierarchy which justified colonization and eugenics. When you try and imply causation between a group of people's success and natural, inborn characteristics which are unchangeable, you're playing with fire. The truth is that these tests are always biased. There is no real reason for kings to be kings, for rich to be rich or for second-class citizens to be second-class. We are all created different, but equal.
We arent all talking about the same things...
kings have nothing to do with testosterone levels?  hmmm  you've seen BRAVEHEART? 
how true is this line from that movie?
Isabella: The king will be dead in a month and his son is a weakling. Who
do you think will rule this kingdom? Now open this door.

so to become king when your dad is king might have little to do with testosterone levels, but to become king or to hold that office, might require at least average testosterone level.

Does testosterone   mean you get to be rich? Not always.  and depends on what you mean, "rich" or "wealthy"
no one in this thread is talking about wealthy, you can't get rid of wealth.
as for rich or getting ladies/gaining muscle, and attitude in life, that's what we all want to discuss.

That's why I made this thread; to note the empirical observations that might lead e to think someone I see had high/low testosterone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence

I think a guy has low testosterone when I see a guy:
-walk with his head down
-have a large gut
-dress like he just woke up
-look lost or clueless

I think a guy has high testosterone when I see a guy
-a neatly dressed
-lean, more skinny than fat, although wearing clothes can give a hard read
-walking fast, toward something
-carrying something, briefcase, folder, clipboard


Things I dont know about
-facial hair: does some facial hair(less than 2 days growth) show women he has testosterone or is a clean look more attractive?
-hats, I understand why people wear hats(forwards) why do people wear hats backwards?(see pic)


(http://www.bloggingwv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/sun-shade-sunshade-hats-demotivational-poster-12520352911.jpg)
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: PeakT on April 17, 2013, 03:37:22 pm

Things I dont know about
-facial hair: does some facial hair(less than 2 days growth) show women he has testosterone or is a clean look more attractive?
-hats, I understand why people wear hats(forwards) why do people wear hats backwards?(see pic)

I'm not sure you're going to get too far with the hat thing.  However, penis length is related to finger height ratios though, so I guess you never know:

http://www.garmaonhealth.com/mens-health/penis-size
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: Ken on April 17, 2013, 04:35:47 pm
JackAndy,

Nicely stated!  You weren't a sociology major by any chance were you?

399,

I've read the same thing regarding the rise and fall of T while in the gym based on what a guy sees next to him.  The article suggest that when you are performing the same lift as the guy next to you and witnessing him lift significantly more weight it can cause your own T level to drop.  Conversely, when you are outperforming the guy next to you it can rise.  Don't know how accurate this is, but I know I prefer to be the guy lifting heavier! Don't we all?

Cheers
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: JackAndy on April 17, 2013, 04:52:34 pm

You weren't a sociology major by any chance were you?


Nope. I'm just sayin...
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: 399 on April 17, 2013, 11:12:07 pm
Jack, you completely misunderstood the point I was making.  It's not that a billionaire is born with a higher testosterone level or part of some master race, it's that there are things that happen that cause testosterone levels to rise and fall.  There is proof that if you win in a sporting or business setting, your t goes up.  (this relationship may not work the same if you have secondary hypogonadism, but for the normal population it is true)  if said billionaire were to then lose his money his test would then crash and his cortisol would go up hugely.  The point of the research of the book I mentioned was about how these hormones vary situationally among the same people, not that someone is born with high t and should therefore be a billionaire.

If you walk up to a girl and pick her up and get laid i'll bet your t level the next few hours would be a lot higher than if she rejected you and made you feel like crap.  It's the same principle
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: Blade78 on April 18, 2013, 01:22:39 am

I'm not sure you're going to get too far with the hat thing.  However, penis length is related to finger height ratios though, so I guess you never know:

http://www.garmaonhealth.com/mens-health/penis-size

I missed how this is on topic with this thread?  am I supposed to find this info in some way useful?
because penis size isnt behavior  related to high/low testosterone that we can control
seeing some guy doing something stupid, ie wear a hat backwards and then shade his face with his hand) is behavior which could be related to him having high/low testosterone
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: Sam on April 18, 2013, 02:15:58 am

I'm not sure you're going to get too far with the hat thing.  However, penis length is related to finger height ratios though, so I guess you never know:

http://www.garmaonhealth.com/mens-health/penis-size

I missed how this is on topic with this thread?  am I supposed to find this info in some way useful?
because penis size isnt behavior  related to high/low testosterone that we can control
seeing some guy doing something stupid, ie wear a hat backwards and then shade his face with his hand) is behavior which could be related to him having high/low testosterone

I think the bigger issue is that guys chin.  Clearly chin size is a predictor of testosterone levels.

http://www.anthropogeny.com/Evolution%20of%20the%20Chin.htm

So if this is true, "So, large brains produce small teeth. Large brains, small teeth, and high testosterone produce a chin."   I'm guessing this guy has low t.    So maybe there is something to a lack of situational awareness and t levels.

Furthermore situational awareness is a characteristic often attributed to manly occupations such as police, firefighters, military as well as conventional leadership vs management. 

Note I modified this base don re-reading the link
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: Blade78 on April 18, 2013, 02:57:56 am



I think the bigger issue is that guys chin.  Clearly chin size is a predictor of testosterone levels.

how is that a bigger issue to show whether a man has high or low testosterone?

I think low testosterone means "I dont reed well" since no one is being compliant with the thread topic, instead saying useless gibberish like:

OMG men have 1000% more testosterone than WOMEN!
and other things that are NOT a behavior that would showcase whether a man has low or high testosterone
see, thats what this thread is about, INDICATORS of someones current level of testosterone
not what their level was in utero, but the current level

does anyone have anything useful to add?

Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: Sam on April 18, 2013, 03:08:00 am
I guess that then depend on if you are talking about the healthy population or those with a condition causing low t or supplementation causing high t.   I think the chin is a relevant observation if you are trying to draw a hypothesis about this guys t levels and his behaviors.  If what you are really trying to understand is the epidemiological relevance of a discussion around the distribution of testosterone levels in the human population.
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: PeakT on April 18, 2013, 03:36:16 am

I missed how this is on topic with this thread?  am I supposed to find this info in some way useful?


I assumed you were joking about the hat comment, so I responded tongue in cheek.  So the answer is that you really weren't supposed to find the information all that useful. 
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: PeakT on April 18, 2013, 03:58:27 am

how is that a bigger issue to show whether a man has high or low testosterone?

I think low testosterone means "I dont reed well" since no one is being compliant with the thread topic, instead saying useless gibberish like:

OMG men have 1000% more testosterone than WOMEN!
and other things that are NOT a behavior that would showcase whether a man has low or high testosterone
see, thats what this thread is about, INDICATORS of someones current level of testosterone
not what their level was in utero, but the current level

does anyone have anything useful to add?

Hey, I think you did this to yourself.  You kind of put a semi-humorous picture and made a few jokes and so everyone responded in kind.

Anyway, I do not know of any external way to tell testosterone reliably.

Now steroid usage is another matter.  I've never seen a study on this, but the claim has long been that steroids (and HGH) will increase bone size in the feet, hands and jaw.  Look at what none other than George Will wrote:

"Mike Murphy, equipment manager of the San Francisco Giants, testified that since Bonds became a Giant in 1993, the size of his uniform jersey has gone from 42 to 52. His cap size has expanded from 7 1/8 to 7 1/4, even though while it was expanding he shaved his head. (Bonds reportedly shaved his head because his hair was falling out as a result of steroid use.) And Fainaru-Wada and Williams also say Murphy testified that Bonds's baseball shoe size has changed from 10˝ to 13.

Steroids, human growth hormone (HGH) and other performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs) can cause gradual enlargement of bones in the feet, hands, face, jaw and skull."

Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: PeakT on April 18, 2013, 04:01:40 am
Now could you tell from behavior?  Well, perhaps from lack of empathy.  Remember the TEDs video that Samson posted?

https://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1095.msg9932#msg9932

Aggression and other similar behaviors are hard to define and researchers are still arguing about testosterone's effects in these areas...
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: Blade78 on April 18, 2013, 06:13:50 am

Hey, I think you did this to yourself.  You kind of put a semi-humorous picture and made a few jokes and so everyone responded in kind.
you'd be wrong
My humorous example was exactly what I wanted, behavior that was controlled by level of testosterone?
the examples that were given, -size of someones jaw/hand/female-were not determined by choices.
see the difference?
 


Anyway, I do not know of any external way to tell testosterone reliably.

that's the point of this thread.
I think there are ways to predict if someone has high/average VS low testertone based on how they behave(not how they are, but through choices they make)

ie,
alpha men have higher testosterone than other men?  so does more testosterone make an alpha male or does being a leader make you have more testosterone?
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: JackAndy on April 18, 2013, 06:19:40 am
Jack, you completely misunderstood the point I was making.  It's not that a billionaire is born with a higher testosterone level or part of some master race, it's that there are things that happen that cause testosterone levels to rise and fall.  There is proof that if you win in a sporting or business setting, your t goes up.  (this relationship may not work the same if you have secondary hypogonadism, but for the normal population it is true)  if said billionaire were to then lose his money his test would then crash and his cortisol would go up hugely.  The point of the research of the book I mentioned was about how these hormones vary situationally among the same people, not that someone is born with high t and should therefore be a billionaire.

If you walk up to a girl and pick her up and get laid i'll bet your t level the next few hours would be a lot higher than if she rejected you and made you feel like crap.  It's the same principle

Ok so you're saying that you think they have higher testosterone because they're rich?
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: PeakT on April 18, 2013, 07:05:38 am

alpha men have higher testosterone than other men?  so does more testosterone make an alpha male or does being a leader make you have more testosterone?

Okay, makes sense.  How about these?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347203003981
"Dominance, aggression and testosterone in wild chimpanzees: a test of the ‘challenge hypothesis’"

"High-ranking chimpanzees were more aggressive than low-ranking males and produced higher levels of urinary testosterone."

And I think most females would agree that chimps is a pretty good model for studying men.

The problem, though, with the above is that you could argue that they have high testosterone precisely because they are alpha.  For example, look at this study:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347203003981
"Agonistic rank, aggression, social context, and testosterone in male pigtail monkeys"

"The alpha and beta males of the defeated group were singled out for repeated attack and both showed significant drops in circulating levels of testosterone."

So are alpha males high testosterone because high testosterone helps them climb to the top of the power ladder?  Or do they have high testosterone because they've won the most tournaments and have the most babes?

And, man, there is a Journal for everything, eh? 
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: Blade78 on April 18, 2013, 10:19:43 am

alpha men have higher testosterone than other men?  so does more testosterone make an alpha male or does being a leader make you have more testosterone?

Okay, makes sense.  How about these?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347203003981
"Dominance, aggression and testosterone in wild chimpanzees: a test of the ‘challenge hypothesis’"

"High-ranking chimpanzees were more aggressive than low-ranking males and produced higher levels of urinary testosterone."


I dunno, If I saw a male throwing feces at me, I wouldnt think he has high testosterone, but he has an extra chromosome.
yes, thats on the right track of what I'd like to see.

I checked out at the grocery store and the girl bagging my food, had kept looking at me, so I didnt see a name tag, so I went up to her, asked her name, but the cashier interuppted our talk, as he was helping the next person....she might have been 20, maybe, really cute girl, and I had just come from the gym, so either I repulsed her with my gym clothes or I'll get a grin and "come talk to me" look when I see Anna Marie again..

WHO gives me a name like that?  I have a hard enough time getting people to say my 2 syllable name, much less a 3 syllable name!
(http://funnydemotivationalposters.com/uploads/saved_posters/demotivational-poster-v8ggrtuxbm-NAMES.jpg)
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: 399 on April 18, 2013, 01:57:53 pm
Jack, no no no!  im saying they are likely high testosterone because in order to get rich they have been winning competitive battles along the way.  It's the same thing in a different context that peak t is saying.  So when monkeys win battles and become higher status in their groups they test higher for testosterone.  The exact same is true in humans, and one of the ways, but not the only way, one becomes "alpha" in our society is to win competitive business battles and make a whole lot of money.  But the same effect is true in athletes, that the same level athletes if you test them after a game the winners have higher testosterone than the losers.  In fact the book I mentioned threw out the theory that winning streaks in sports could be caused by steadily rising testosterone of the team that keeps winning leading to a positive feedback in their level of play.

Take money out of it, the point is simply that someone who is steadily winning competitions and being successful after taking risks gets natural boosts in testosterone, whether the context is athletic, business, daredevil, women, or some other form of status.  That is the simple explanation why a self-made billionaire at the point where he is on top is likely to have a higher testosterone level.  It's positive feedback from success, winning, and status, and it would be the same in anyone in any context who is not hypogonadal to begin with.
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: Blade78 on April 18, 2013, 02:18:56 pm
Yes/no/direct answers

I find the lack of direct answers to be annoying, yet I wonder about why it happens

I've seen it mostly with physicians/phds, educated people, who might be not giving me a straight answer to cover their ass/leave them options/etc.
but even in my friendly dealing with educated people, they dont seem to easily give a straight answer, I must re-ask my question

Maybe Im asking complicated questions, I dont think so.
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: JackAndy on April 18, 2013, 03:19:31 pm
It's positive feedback from success, winning, and status, and it would be the same in anyone in any context who is not hypogonadal to begin with.

Got it. They have high testosterone because they have success.
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: 399 on April 18, 2013, 05:23:31 pm
yes exactly.  the book i mentioned did not talk about billionaires.  what it did was study wall street traders and found that when they were winning and their trades were working, their testosterone levels rose, while when they were losing test went down and cortisol spiked.  i extrapolated that research as well as some of the other research out there like how the alpha male monkeys have higher test levels, that someone who has had the success to become a billionaire likely has had their testosterone levels boosted by these same natural processes.  its an interesting subject how much hormone levels and fluctuations affect behavior and i think that book i mentioned made an important contribution to our nascent understanding of this topic
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: JackAndy on April 18, 2013, 05:43:14 pm
That's kind of like the studies about how abstaining from ejaculation increases testosterone. The truth is that it only does so for 1-2 days. After that, testosterone levels return to baseline. I wonder if this effect is sustained and if so for how long?
Title: Re: Testosterone and Behavior
Post by: PeakT on April 18, 2013, 06:14:07 pm
That's kind of like the studies about how abstaining from ejaculation increases testosterone. The truth is that it only does so for 1-2 days. After that, testosterone levels return to baseline. I wonder if this effect is sustained and if so for how long?

It's very difficult to tease that out.  Think of the opposite situation:  depression.  Depression lowers testosterone and low testosterone lower depression.  So if a guy has low testosterone and depression, how do you know which one is the chicken and which one is the egg??