Peak Testosterone Forum

General Category => Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health => Topic started by: F45 on January 03, 2018, 03:06:25 pm

Title: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
Post by: F45 on January 03, 2018, 03:06:25 pm
Is 25 mg of Clomid three times a week equivalent to 500 IU of HCG Monotherapy three times a week?  For increasing fertility and testosterone at the same time hopefully.
Title: Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
Post by: PeakT on January 03, 2018, 05:10:12 pm
Is 25 mg of Clomid three times a week equivalent to 500 IU of HCG Monotherapy three times a week?  For increasing fertility and testosterone at the same time hopefully.

Hmmm.  A lot of guys on Clomid will get large increases in testosterone, i.e. 700+.  My impression is that this is less common with HCG Mono guys.  What I mean is that, if you get them over 700, their estradiol is usually very high.  What I am getting at is that any comparison between the two should probably include estradiol as well.
Title: Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
Post by: Boxcar on January 03, 2018, 06:52:10 pm
It is probably going to depend on the person, because the two therapies are very different...

HCG is an LH replacement therapy.  When you start it, your body's own LH will go to zero.  Your testosterone level will then depend entirely on how efficiently your body makes testosterone, for a given dose of HCG.

With Clomid, your response will depend on both how much your body's natural LH is boosted by the drug, and by how efficiently your body produces testosterone based on that LH level.

Like Peak mentions, some guys will get a very big response from a very low dose of Clomid.  This seems to be less common with HCG.  In fact, since HCG shuts down your body's LH,  it is possible that a very low dose could LOWER your testosterone level (the same is true of TRT).  Clomid, on the other hand, should only cause testosterone to rise above your natural baseline. 
Title: Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
Post by: Dr. John Crisler on January 03, 2018, 07:43:34 pm
A major difference is HCG mimicks LH.

Clomiphene, OTOH, induce increases in both LH and FSH. It is the FSH which stimulates the Sertoli cells, which make the sperm.
Title: Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
Post by: Boxcar on January 03, 2018, 10:25:58 pm
A major difference is HCG mimicks LH.

Clomiphene, OTOH, induce increases in both LH and FSH. It is the FSH which stimulates the Sertoli cells, which make the sperm.

Does HCG lower FSH, like TRT?  And if so, does that potentially impair fertility for a guy on HCG monotherapy (vs clomid or no therapy)?
Title: Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
Post by: PeakT on January 04, 2018, 08:24:50 am
A major difference is HCG mimicks LH.

Clomiphene, OTOH, induce increases in both LH and FSH. It is the FSH which stimulates the Sertoli cells, which make the sperm.

Does HCG lower FSH, like TRT?  And if so, does that potentially impair fertility for a guy on HCG monotherapy (vs clomid or no therapy)?

I don't see how it could, at least on average, considering Dr. Lipshultz's findings that adding HCG will increase fertility.  The study is here:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/testosterone_fertility.aspx
Title: Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
Post by: Cataceous on January 04, 2018, 08:37:03 am
Does HCG lower FSH, like TRT?  And if so, does that potentially impair fertility for a guy on HCG monotherapy (vs clomid or no therapy)?

Yes and yes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3084535

Quote
To determine whether normal serum levels of FSH are necessary for the maintenance of quantitatively normal spermatogenesis, we first studied the effect on sperm production of selective FSH deficiency induced by chronic administration of hCG in normal men.

Quote
hCG administration alone resulted in partial suppression of the mean sperm concentration from 88 +/- 24 (+/-SEM) million/ml during the control period to 22 +/- 7 million/ml during the last 4 months of hCG treatment (P less than 0.001 compared to control values).
Title: Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
Post by: Oldbull on January 05, 2018, 03:39:06 pm
Doctors usually start with Hcg and then add Hmg if needed.
Title: Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
Post by: Dr Justin Saya, MD on January 05, 2018, 11:43:56 pm
A *very* generalized ranking of relative fertilities (with top being most fertile):

1. Clomid/SERM treatment
2(A). HCG + HMG (or lyophilized FSH)
2(B). Baseline no treatment (no HPTA suppression via TRT, AAS, HCG mono, etc) - assuming no significant degree of primary/secondary/tertiary dysfunction.
3(A). HCG monotherapy (does in fact result in HPTA suppression, especially at higher doses, but *may* move up to #2 in select cases of SECONDARY/TERTIARY hypogonadism)
3(B). TRT + HCG (as we know many men are still able to maintain adequate fertility to conceive)
4. TRT/AAS with no concurrent HCG.
Title: Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
Post by: Dr. John Crisler on January 06, 2018, 05:57:54 pm
A *very* generalized ranking of relative fertilities (with top being most fertile):

1. Clomid/SERM treatment
2(A). HCG + HMG (or lyophilized FSH)
2(B). Baseline no treatment (no HPTA suppression via TRT, AAS, HCG mono, etc) - assuming no significant degree of primary/secondary/tertiary dysfunction.
3(A). HCG monotherapy (does in fact result in HPTA suppression, especially at higher doses, but *may* move up to #2 in select cases of SECONDARY/TERTIARY hypogonadism)
3(B). TRT + HCG (as we know many men are still able to maintain adequate fertility to conceive)
4. TRT/AAS with no concurrent HCG.
That's a great post.
Title: Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
Post by: Cataceous on January 07, 2018, 07:53:57 am
...
That's a great post.

Indeed, it's one to bookmark.