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General Category => Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health => Topic started by: 53chevy on January 26, 2021, 06:11:31 am

Title: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on January 26, 2021, 06:11:31 am
This is more of a rant than anything else but allow me to take you on my 6 year long journey thru hell with trt.

6 years ago I ended up having low T which I'm pretty sure was the result of taking dhea for several months (which actually helped me by the way) then quitting it cold turkey. The first 3 months being on TRT was like magic. I literally felt like I was 18 again. I lost 25 lbs not even trying, had a hint of a six pack, had energy like crazy, horny like a teenager and my dick would stand straight up if the wind blew. But sadly that came to an abrupt halt just 3 months into it and I have felt like complete garbage ever since.

This is what trt has done to my body so far, besides the usual feeling like a complete pile of shit that has laid out in the sun, dried out, been trampled on then sucked up by a lawnmower and shot across the yard. It started with high BP around 150/100. Mind you my BP was ALWAYS 120/70 no matter what until trt came along. That started 3 months into it, possibly sooner but this is when the nurse first checked it the day I went in for a shot and told her trt was no longer working. I started having depression and extreme anger at this point.

It took two months to get in to see an endocrinologist which ended up being a huge waste of time. He took me off of trt for 2 months to check my LH and FSH levels. At the end of that two months they were high......well duh. My brain was screaming at my balls to make T but they wouldn't cooperate. My T was a whooping 370 2 months off of T. By this time I had already gained all of the weight that I had lost plus some, I had zero energy, zero ambition, zero libido and had no interest in anything. I'm still at that point right now 6 years later. I finally talked the endo into letting me do the shots myself (he wasn't even going to put me back on T even with a T level of 370) and started doing them every other day and the anger and depression subsided. This was due to high E. If my e gets above 30 it gets very very bad for me in multiple ways.


About a month into being back on T I started having severe heart palpitations, they just showed up out of the blue one day. I'm talking about all day long, 24/7 my heart felt like it would pound out of my chest. After a meal it would get even worse. For 2 hours after a meal my heart rate would be 120+ while I was kicked backed in the recliner and would pound even harder. I dealt with this for probably 2+ years then all of the sudden it fixed itself. I never did figure out what caused it. I still have minor palps from time to time but nothing like it use to be. About this same time my feet started burning like the pits of hell 24/7. You talk about misery, that will cause it. I was to the point that I thought I had become a bad diabetic so I started keeping a check on my sugar level. Guess what? It was just fine. Fasting glucose was just a tad high and after a meal I never saw it go above 140 so yeah, no diabetes wasn't causing it. Several months later, just like with the heart palpitations, the burning feet just disappeared. I have no clue.

After I got fed up with the endo because he was a complete moron I started doing my own labs and noticed that my sodium had jumped 6-8 numbers from pre trt levels, my CO2 had dropped 6-8 numbers and my potassium had went up. So I began a 3 year long journey on researching kidneys and acidosis trying multiple things along the way to get my kidneys back to normal. Nothing helped. I pee maybe twice a day now and I retain water like a woman on her period. I wake up every morning with my hands and feet swollen so bad that some times I can barely close my fist. Gee, I wonder why my BP is so much higher? I'll get back to the kidneys in a minute.

Somewhere along the way I started feeling extremely bloated 24/7 to the point where if I eat just a sandwich I feel like I have eaten a huge Thanksgiving meal. It is absolutely miserable. By the way, I have no appetite anymore. I eat because I know I have to. I use to love food but now I crave nothing. I eat a small breakfast and then supper later at night and my stomach never growls and I don't crave food but I always feel completely full. Misery.

What's next? Let's see, as I mentioned I get no enjoyment from anything, I don't want to do anything and if I could sleep 24/7 I would. I have to force myself to do my daily chores much less work on any hobbies. I don't enjoy them anymore which is the complete opposite of what I use to be. I was always planning, thinking about or working on some project, I lived for my projects and hobbies. I couldn't care less about any of them now. Oh yeah, almost forgot, I haven't had sex since I've been on TRT, that's 6 years, and you know what? I don't care. I have absolutely no desire for a woman and that is the weirdest feeling considering I use to be horny 24/7, literally.

We can't forget the fact that I had to give blood every 2 months because trt caused my hematocrit and hemoglobin to go high. I was actually told by one doctor that trt doesn't cause that.  ;D That's weird because every time I've come off trt they both would drop back to normal.

Oh I forgot another thing, I developed a thyroid nodule that was discovered 3 months into trt by the idiot endo. That's about the only thing he accomplished was finding that. My thyroid levels are where they were pre trt but the nodule is big enough that the otolaryngologist says that it's over the size that he would normally remove BOTH sides of my thyroid. I said unless you can prove it's cancerous HELL NO. I've got enough trouble with what trt has done to my body much less having to regulate thyroid along with it.

A year and a half ago I discovered that I have "sleep apnea". Now this is where things get interesting. I live alone so I have no one to tell me if I actually quit breathing so I set up a camera and recorded myself sleeping for about 2 months. I would also wear a pulse oximeter that records, I would look at the data and see where my o2 would drop, then I'd go to the video and see if I had in fact quit breathing. Nope, didn't quit breathing, no snoring, no struggling to breathe either. Here's what's going on with that, for whatever reason I have become an extremely shallow breather. My o2 levels whilst awake and moving are usually 95-97. If I sit down it will drop to 92-94. When I lay down, not even about to go to sleep, it will drop to 90, sometimes 89 and that's when I'm wide awake. While I'm sleeping it will hover around 91-92 but then dip into the 80's ever so often. Ever since I discovered this I've paid attention to my breathing and I breathe very very shallow most of the time. I can take a "normal" breath and my o2 jumps to 99+. I have a theory about this and here it is, remember my CO2 has dropped 6-8 numbers? Well from what I have gathered from research is that CO2 levels control your breathing rate. If your co2 is high you will breath more rapidly and deeper trying to blow off the co2. So I figure since my co2 is low I am breathing less and shallower therefore I have "sleep apnea", but not from obstruction. I also have a touch of central sleep apnea because sometimes as I am falling asleep I wake up and take a huge breath because I am just not even attempting to breathe. Never before have I ever had that happen until trt. Ain't it wonderful???

Did I mention my eyesight? Part of that could be my age, I am 47, but I do know that when I'm on T it gets a lot worse. Driving at night I see three road signs instead of one and looking at my phone for more than ten minutes makes my left eye watery and they both start getting goop in them and I have to lay the phone down for awhile.

Next, about 14 months ago I decided I was done with trt so I quit the t shots altogether. About 5 days later out of the blue just like with the heart palps and burning feet I all of the sudden acquired asthma. I'm not talking about an asthma attack every once in awhile. This stays with me all day and all night. It feels like I have an elephant sitting on my chest or somebody has me in a bear hug all of the time. I thought maybe low T was causing it so I got back on T a few months later and stayed on it for 2-3 months with no change to the asthma. I still have it severely to this day. Primatene mist inhalers do nothing, albuterol inhalers do nothing. The only relief I get is from mucinex nasal spray with oxymetazoline in it (yes a nasal spray will make my asthma vanish for a few hours and it feels wonderful) or a double dose of diphenhydramine and sometimes nyquil. Of course those two knock me out so I don't actually get to enjoy being able to breathe for very long. I usually will fight the sleepiness until I can't take it anymore just so I can enjoy the relief for just a little while.

This leads me to the next thing that has happened. My nose stays stopped up quite a bit now. I have had to become a mouth breather because of it. Allergy meds do absolutely nothing for this either. The only relief I get from that is with the mucinex nasal spray I mentioned earlier. Mind you, I've had allergies for 20 years but my nose NEVER stopped up from them, NEVER. The worst that would happen would be sinus pressure around my eyes and forehead and antihistamines would take care of that. They do nothing now. That reminds me, it seems like no meds at all have any affect on me. It's like all of my receptors are dead and nothing works on me with the exception of mucinex and diphenhydramine helping my breathing. But here's what sucks, if I use the mucinex for more than a couple of days the rebound effect from it is unbearable so I try to only use it when I must have some relief from the asthma. I hope the asthma goes away on its own just like the heart palps and burning feet did but I'm doubting it will. My father died from a lung disease a year ago, he lasted 2.5 years with it, so yeah I'm a wee bit worried about my lungs right now. It's like all of the sudden my body is overflowing with histamine. I've done some reading on this but my mind just won't let me focus on things anymore.

The sheer fatigue that I feel every single day just wears me down. I have no strength, no physical stamina at all and I hurt all over all of the time. My memory is non existent now and my mind is a jumbled mess most of the time now. I use to have a memory like an elephant and could reason and think with the best of them. Now sometimes I feel like just your average everyday moron because I can't even think half the time.

This is my latest theory on while I feel like a big pile of shit. Like I said earlier I've studied on the kidneys for several years thinking the acidosis was causing most if not all of my trouble and it could be but nothing I have tried has fixed it. In all of my reading on the kidneys dopamine was never mentioned. Well I started researching dopamine a few months ago and guess what I discovered? Dopamine plays a huge role in sodium excretion. In fact, dopamine affects a lot of different things in the body. Anyway, here's the theory, if my dopamine is low or receptors are dead for whatever reason then the low dopa is causing me to retain sodium, hence my sodium level jumping up. This in turn causes my aldosterone to be low, did I mention my aldosterone is non existent? From what I've read sodium levels can directly affect aldosterone so if my sodium jumps up then my aldosterone drops. Aldosterone basically supercharges the kidneys to get rid of acids in the urine. If my aldo is low then I'm not getting rid of acids which will in turn cause low co2 (which is mostly bicarb on a lab test which helps buffer acids) and low co2 equals acidosis, Acidosis wreaks havoc on lots of things in the body. I don't know f any of this is actually what's happening but it's all I have to go on right now.

Low dopamine can also cause asthma. We also know what low dopamine does for energy, stamina, libido, drive, ambition etc, in other words all the crappiness I'm feeling right now.

I'm sure I've left out some small things but you get the point and that point is trt has wreaked havoc on my body and I'm afraid it's not done yet. I'm at a dead end road now because I have no clue what to do next. If dopamine or dopamine receptors are my issue then I'm probably screwed for life. If you are new here I beg of you to try everything possible before going on trt, go down every avenue, exhaust every option before you start playing with hormones because it can ruin your entire life. If this is how I have to live for the rest of my life then i don't think I'm going to make it much longer. I would give up everything I own if I could back up and never take that first shot of T and try everything else first. It is wreaking havoc on my body and I'm not even a resemblance of the man I once was.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: cujet on January 26, 2021, 07:25:46 pm
Your journey is not unlike mine. There is a lot about TRT that is not commonly known, side effects and so on. This site is about the most comprehensive TRT site around, with regard to subject matter, research articles and links.

I've had my share of health issues, and quite simply it's easy to blame some of them on TRT, but truth be told, they are what brought about my very low T in the first place. If I were healthy, I'd still have high natural T levels.

It's wonderful to have a "higher is better" attitude, and in some ways maybe it is. Muscles, stamina, libido all improve with high levels in the short term. But I can't tolerate that. I must be below 800.

Furthermore, any hormone replacement can suppress other hormones. I now have to take prednisone, just to function. Is that because of TRT, or is it because of Thyroid replacement, or is is because I'm falling apart? Attempts to stop TRT, minimize thyroid use and get off pred result in near death experiences, that truly don't seem survivable.

Sounds like you have inflammatory issues going on. I do too. My best results come from keeping TRT at 450, and absolutely below 800. Taking enough thyroid hormone to suppress TSH just below 1, and to take prednisone to offset low cortisol. Remember, cortisol is anti inflammatory.

The lower TRT levels result in good strength, even with my severe fatigue. They also result in normal red blood cell counts. Unlike when I use more.

EDIT: Also, I cycle on and off TRT. I used to do it at 6 month intervals, but lately, it's better if I do it every month. 4 weeks on, one week off. Works amazingly well for me. Also, I'm using compounded creme.

Advil helps me too.



Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: ghce on January 26, 2021, 09:58:55 pm
Truly awful symptoms but also very familiar to me but thankfully not that extreme.

I too have been on TRT for 6 years but have broken up my protocols with other regimes such as T cream, Clomid and Oral T protocols and at times even coming completely off T though for me I know that I am definitely better on it than off it.

I do hope you can work out what the cause is and if not at least find some sort of regime that is less physically and mentally debilitating.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: cujet on January 26, 2021, 11:45:54 pm
Thyroid issues can cause a pounding heart. In fact, that's a huge factor. It's good to know thyroid levels vary markedly in healthy people. As I'm sure you know, the thyroid is a responsive gland, with a negative feedback system. It controls metabolism, directly and instantly. Some potential clues: You have a nodule, you feel crummy, you have a racing heart. Test for thyroid levels on a day you feel well and you will likely get a normal result. Test for thyroid levels on a day you feel terrible and I'll bet labs will be out of range.

When my thyroid failed, my heart went into severe AFIB. I was hospitalized and treated for classic AFIB, a treatment that did not work and the hospital spent days trying. Digoxin did eventually get the rate down, but the missing and skipped beats remained. What solved the problem was being put on Synthroid, about 2 months after the hospitalization.

My thyroid levels dropped to nothing. AFIB was the result. The very same can happen with a sudden burst of thyroid hormone. Rubbing your thyroid can cause this.

Inflammation and SALT can cause a pounding heart. To blame it on TRT may have some merit. As TRT can worsen fluid retention. A diuretic is in order if you retain fluid.

Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on January 27, 2021, 04:12:57 am
Like I said at the beginning, taking dhea is what caused me to have to go on trt. If I would have never taken it or at least kept taking it I probably would still be a normal human at this point. I was in damn near perfect health before TRT, on no medications at all. I was full of life, sky high libido, ambition, drive, very goal driven etc etc, now there's nothing. I'm zombie like. I have close to 60 labs that I have gotten over the last 6 years not including the ones 5 doctors have had done. I know my body very well and I know what it has been doing for 6 years. Despite having a thyroid nodule my thyroid numbers have been damn near perfect the entire time and have not fluctuated hardly any from my pre trt levels. I had NONE of these problems until trt came along. When you start messing with one hormone you're dang near guaranteed to screw up other systems in the body. When trt causes your balls to almost COMPLETELY disappear,yes mine were the size of an m and m, then yes it can and will wreak havoc on other things in your body also. It shouldn't be called trt, it should be called hrt because you're almost guaranteed to have to work on other hormones because of it. I just hope and pray that one day I will figure out what trt has screwed up and figure out what my body needs and I can be normal again.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on January 27, 2021, 03:57:49 pm
With so many things interconnected, it's hard to divide and conquer. Nonetheless, maybe you can start chipping away at the issues. You mention dopamine and drive. That's a good place to start, because gains there will help you to keep going. Initially I added tyrosine to my supplements to help with motivation and mood. Any effects from it are pretty subtle. More recently I've included a combination of selegiline and phenethylamine (PEA). There is a synergistic relationship, and the combination has been shown to have antidepressant qualities. Selegiline is also interesting because it may be counteracting a negative effect of aging, the increase in MAO-B. MAO-B metabolizes some neurotransmitters, including dopamine. I'm currently using 2.5 mg selegiline with 100 mg PEA daily.

Further reading:
https://www.juicedmuscle.com/jmblog/content/selegiline-hcl
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selegiline
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenethylamine
http://www.balancingbrainchemistry.co.uk/peter-smith/102/Phenylethylamine-Deficient-Depression/Phenylethylamine-Deficient-Depression.html
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on January 28, 2021, 02:05:28 am
I've tried several different supplements that supposedly raise dopamine levels and none had any effect. I believe that my dopamine receptors have been reduced or deadened or somehow something else is occupying them. Like I said I'm at the end of a dead end road right now. I've been reading on histamine right now hoping to get some relief from what seems to be a histamine overload. Histamine can affect dopamine and 1000 other things. You are correct that everything is so intertwined and it's hard to single out one specific thing. I will always hold out that my issues are due to trt completely screwing up the entire system. It might very well be only one component that is out of whack but finding it is worse than looking for a needle in 1000 haystacks.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: doin it on January 28, 2021, 03:29:19 am

Cat,

Your Selegiline link,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selegiline

does provide s LOT of interesting info. A few severe interactions The thing that bothered me most was:

"At typical clinical doses used for Parkinson's disese, selegiline is a selective and *irreversible* inhibitor of monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B), increasing levels of dopamine in the brain."
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on January 28, 2021, 03:49:47 am
OK here's something interesting. I was reading on histamine and came across an article aimed at women that said estrogen dominance can cause histamine intolerance or overload. We know that estrogen dominance doesn't necessarily mean high e but it can also mean low progesterone, they have to be balanced with each other. I grabbed my bottle of prog cream (I experimented with prog a few years back) and slathered one pump, which is 25 mg of prog, on mine thighs and I'll be damned 10 minutes later and my asthma disappeared. This was an hour or so ago and the asthma is still gone. Every once in awhile I'll get a couple of days of relief where the asthma seems to disappear but it always comes back so I'm not getting my hopes up just yet. I'll keep using the prog cream and report back in a few days. All I can say right now is this feels absolutely wonderful to be able to breathe!
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on January 28, 2021, 07:01:22 am
Selegiline as an irreversible inhibitor of MAO-B is analogous to exemestane (Aromasin) as an aromatase inhibitor; in both cases the affected enzyme is effectively eliminated. But also in both cases, when the medication is stopped the enzyme levels are eventually replenished. In contrast, a reversible inhibitor such anastrozole just temporarily ties up the enzyme, and effectively releases it when the medication is discontinued.

It seems that younger individuals are discouraged from messing with selegiline, but MAO-B levels do rise in us older folks, to our detriment. "The normal activity of MAO-B creates reactive oxygen species, which directly damage cells.[13] MAO-B levels have been found to increase with age, suggesting a role in natural age related cognitive decline and the increased likelihood of developing neurological diseases later in life.[14] More active polymorphisms of the MAO-B gene have been linked to negative emotionality, and suspected as an underlying factor in depression.[15] Activity of MAO-B has also been shown to play a role in stress-induced cardiac damage."[R (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_B#Roles_in_disease_and_aging)]

That's interesting about the progesterone. I have of late been encouraging anyone with low levels to try to normalize them.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on January 29, 2021, 07:49:39 am
I guess the prog cream was a cruel coincidence because the asthma was unbearable today. I had to take a couple of snorts of the mucinex nasal spray this evening because it got so bad. Just like clockwork in a few minutes the asthma was gone and it's been gone for about 8 hours now. I dread the rebound that's coming but it was worth it at the time. I'm going to look into the things Cat mentioned. I've seen Mao mentioned quite a bit so I'm going to study on that too. Some times I just want to give up and wither away but I just can't, it's not an option.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: seppuku on January 29, 2021, 11:25:22 am
Fwiw, here's my thoughts - so you were once a guy feeling great, but you took dhea, stopped it for some reason, and the stopping it made you feel bad. You go on trt (what was your test level before starting?). Trt makes you feel great, then 3 months later you crash. It's here where i get confused - you stick st it for 6 years, feeling like crap through all of it.  Why didn't you just quit it somewhere around the 1 year period?  At one point, an endo took you off and 2 months later your testosterone level was 370 ng/dl - so basically, NOT hypogonadal.  Ok, so it wasn't an ideal level, but for referrence, my last test came back at 12.1 nmol/l (340 ng/dl).  I'd like to feel a bit younger, but i have enough energy to work 9hr shifts as a maintenance man, libido's good, work out still.  You got your 370ng/dl only 2 months after coming off - that's a fantastic result at that time frame. I bet if you'd have just waited a few months you might have been double that, maybe more.  In your shoes, with the unsatisfactory results you've had from years of trt, i'd just come off and see what i could do naturally.  Full recovery could take over a year, but what have you got to lose, you already feel crap.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on January 29, 2021, 10:41:22 pm
Ah yes, you're the "if you're within the range then there's nothing wrong with you" type. Seems as tho you're skeptical of my story and you come across as a smug know it all so I'll keep this short. My T was 327 when I was put on T. That level was checked around 2 pm meaning it was probably high 300s in the mornings when most T is checked. But wait, that's within the range so I should have felt great, right? I had been off dhea for 2 or 3 months when that T level was checked meaning the damage was done already. Let me tell you something I haven't told a whole lot of people. When low T first hit me I had a depression I didn't know could exist. I literally had my pistol in my hand one night and damn near blew my brains out because I was so depressed, and had no damn clue why I was depressed. I had never had suicidal thoughts ever before. Then lo and behold trt fixed that depression just like magic. Does that sound like T in the 300s is good for me? Just because all you need is a small amount doesn't mean that works for everybody else. Maybe you have heard of people regaining their natural T levels after being on trt for awhile but I haven't. Why do you think so many bodybuilders go on trt after awhile? They can't recover anymore even with with pct meaning the damage is done. But basically what you're saying is anybody on this forum that had their T drop then went on trt and they feel like crap should just get off T, get their natural levels back and the world will be wonderful again. If I would have only known it was that easy! Why do you think I had to go on trt to begin with? Because my balls quit working! So my balls don't work yet I should quit trt to get my natural levels back that dropped because my balls quit working? Alrighty then. And if you'll reread my first post you'll see that I've been off trt for 14 months. At the 8 month mark I went back on trt for a bit but checked my T levels before I went back on and guess where they were? In the 300s. Do you really think it's as easy as getting off T and getting my natural levels back and everything will be wonderful again??? Wow.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: cujet on January 30, 2021, 01:07:21 pm
My T was 327 when I was put on T. That level was checked around 2 pm meaning it was probably high 300s in the mornings when most T is checked. But wait, that's within the range so I should have felt great, right? 

T in the low 300's is too low. I'm not at all surprised by your story, please know "I get it".

I never get depressed, but I have near "nil" T due to illness. I know my low T symptoms and one of them is a stunning lack of confidence. So much so, I'm a pilot that is afraid to fly when T levels are low. I start worrying about a failing wing spar or some other stupid catastrophic mechanical failure. Like an old lady....

53, I'd simply suggest that properly administered TRT is not the crux of the issues. A contributing factor when T levels are driven too high, for sure. I've been doing this a long time, and while a data point of one, I do know my T levels must be over 450 and below 800. I also know that I must cycle. The off cycle is long enough to get LH up to the point where my testicles hurt, then I'm back on. It's not a wild ride, In fact, I simply get horny when T levels are dropping.

I have other health issues and am currently taking prednisone. I don't seem to be able to function without it. (on T or not). And, yes, the prednisone helps the inflammatory nature of my autoimmune disease. It also helps my intestinal issues and massive swelling, it also replaces my very low cortisol, and helps me breathe.



All of us are different, and balancing hormones is not a simple or easy thing. But I'm 100% convinced that it's possible when levels are kept balanced and within reason.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: seppuku on January 30, 2021, 08:23:20 pm
Ah yes, you're the "if you're within the range then there's nothing wrong with you" type. Seems as tho you're skeptical of my story and you come across as a smug know it all so I'll keep this short. My T was 327 when I was put on T. That level was checked around 2 pm meaning it was probably high 300s in the mornings when most T is checked. But wait, that's within the range so I should have felt great, right? I had been off dhea for 2 or 3 months when that T level was checked meaning the damage was done already. Let me tell you something I haven't told a whole lot of people. When low T first hit me I had a depression I didn't know could exist. I literally had my pistol in my hand one night and damn near blew my brains out because I was so depressed, and had no damn clue why I was depressed. I had never had suicidal thoughts ever before. Then lo and behold trt fixed that depression just like magic. Does that sound like T in the 300s is good for me? Just because all you need is a small amount doesn't mean that works for everybody else. Maybe you have heard of people regaining their natural T levels after being on trt for awhile but I haven't. Why do you think so many bodybuilders go on trt after awhile? They can't recover anymore even with with pct meaning the damage is done. But basically what you're saying is anybody on this forum that had their T drop then went on trt and they feel like crap should just get off T, get their natural levels back and the world will be wonderful again. If I would have only known it was that easy! Why do you think I had to go on trt to begin with? Because my balls quit working! So my balls don't work yet I should quit trt to get my natural levels back that dropped because my balls quit working? Alrighty then. And if you'll reread my first post you'll see that I've been off trt for 14 months. At the 8 month mark I went back on trt for a bit but checked my T levels before I went back on and guess where they were? In the 300s. Do you really think it's as easy as getting off T and getting my natural levels back and everything will be wonderful again??? Wow.


Well, that put me straight didn't it, lol!!  Ok, i take it all back.  You're right - you should have gone ahead and used that gun.  But you didn't so alternatively, go f**k yourself.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on January 31, 2021, 01:52:41 am
Cujet, I've had my T levels anywhere from my new normal of 300s to as high as 1600 and everywhere in between and didn't feel a bit different at any level. The only time I feel an actual difference is when my E is high, above 30. The anger and depression from E above 30 is not a pretty sight at all. Other than that nothing I've tried changes the way I feel emotionally as far as drive, energy, libido etc, and trust me I've tried a lot. It is funny that you mention cycling and when your T is dropping you get horny. I don't get horny but I have noticed that when I get off T I do feel a little more energy for a few weeks. I've even tried test prop because it's a faster acting T just to see if it would mimmick the daily up and down of natural T production.

I've checked my cortisol many times over the last 6 years and every time it has been fine. I've gotten labs on just about anything I could think of and like I said the only thing consistently out of whack or had a big change are my kidney affiliated labs. I spent probably 2 years focused on nothing but kidneys trying to get my co2 level back up with no luck. Now that I've discovered that dopamine plays a big role in sodium excretion I'm focusing on that. I've read many threads thru the years that claim trt can desensitize dopamine receptors. I have no clue if that's actually true but it seems like if you got off trt for awhile they would sensitize again, doesn't seem to be my case tho.

On a seperate note, got your own plane? What you got? My father got his pilots license several years back and started building an RV6A. We got the wings done and he was starting on the fuselage when depression hit him hard and he had to go on paxil. He ended up selling it due to not being able to get a medical to fly because of the paxil. He then got a sport pilot license and bought a Titan Tornado. He passed away last january and the plane will be sold as soon as I pull it out and clean it up and get it running.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on January 31, 2021, 01:54:28 am



Well, that put me straight didn't it, lol!!  Ok, i take it all back.  You're right - you should have gone ahead and used that gun.  But you didn't so alternatively, go f**k yourself.

And that's exactly the response I would expect from a know it all prick.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on January 31, 2021, 01:58:29 am
Cataceous, I've started reading on MAO inhibitors and also things like wellbutrin. What I've read so far seems like the MAO inhibitors are kinda dangerous. I'm curious as to why you would want to use those instead of something like wellbutrin.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on January 31, 2021, 02:56:46 am
Cataceous, I've started reading on MAO inhibitors and also things like wellbutrin. What I've read so far seems like the MAO inhibitors are kinda dangerous. I'm curious as to why you would want to use those instead of something like wellbutrin.

As per the above references, one wants to reduce the activity of MAO-B and its negative effects. In the case of selegiline, as long as the dose is low it maintains specificity for MAO-B and has less propensity to cause problems. Here's another detailed article: https://www.futurescience.com/deprenyl.html

Quote
According to Dr. Knoll, deprenyl has "proved to be a safe drug in man.  Neither hypertensive reactions nor the need for special dietary care were ever encountered during long-term (2-8 years) daily administration of the drug."  Knoll said that the lethal dose of the drug is more than 1000 times its effective daily dose.  Knoll called this safety margin "remarkable."
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on January 31, 2021, 06:35:52 am
I'll read that. Are you having any success with it?
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on January 31, 2021, 12:35:18 pm
I'd say so. The effects aren't so dramatic that I can readily dismiss a placebo effect, but I think I've experienced improved mood and motivation. I'm equally or more interested in the anti-aging potential of the drug. Genetic testing suggests a somewhat increased disposition to late-onset Alzheimer's. I'd like to do what I can to counteract that propensity.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on February 26, 2021, 08:30:38 am
So a month ago I decided to go back on T at my usual dose of 15 mg per day and give it one more try to see if it would help with the asthma. 2-3 weeks in I saw a very small improvement with the asthma along with gaining about 8 lbs, most likely due to water retention. That's how badly my body retains water due to whatever the hell T has done to me. A week ago I decided to up my dose to 20 mg per day and it appears that the asthma is now gone. I don't understand my body anymore. I've quit T more than once and never developed asthma until this last time I quit. And why now do I need a bigger dose to get rid of the asthma? On the downside, my severe joint and body pain is back with a vengeance. It is debilitating to the point that if I do ANYTHING physical I will have to just quit and go lay down for awhile just to get some relief from the pain. This is the main reason I quit T the last time. So I can either be off T and have the worst asthma known to man 24/7 but be able to do things even tho I'm out of breath all of the time or I can be on T with no asthma and have pain so bad that I'm merely existing at times. I decided to go on wellbutrin instead of an MAOI so I've got some coming to see if it helps any at all with the multitude of things that are wrong with me. I'll report back after being on wellbutrin for awhile.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on February 26, 2021, 03:22:52 pm
Would you describe the "severe joint and body pain" as possibly a product of hypersensitivity? That is, do you feel as though normal aches and pains are being amplified to an absurd level, even "creating" pain that would otherwise be imperceptible?
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on February 27, 2021, 03:45:23 am
Do you mean is it amplifying existing pain? Yes it does seem to do that some. I've noticed my low back pain is worse and I hurt my ankle a few weeks ago (fell off a skid steer whilst working on it) and it seems to be hurting worse with no unusual activity to cause more pain. The pain I'm talking about is my entire body will hurt and ache from head to toe to the point that I have to go lay down for a little while. I dealt with that for a few years before I quit T this last time and within days of qutting it seemed to get better.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on February 27, 2021, 12:58:49 pm
I asked because I have at times felt like I had something similar going on—the perception of pain being much greater than what's justified, to the point of debilitation. It hasn't been an issue in the last year or so, which coincides with my efforts to normalize levels of hormones in addition to testosterone, such as progesterone. If there's causality involved then I might point to statements like this one: "Hormones play a complex role in how the brain interprets sensations of pain from its neurotransmitters."1 (https://www.healthyandnaturalworld.com/high-progesterone-symptoms/)
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: cujet on February 27, 2021, 11:51:20 pm
53, I've read that some drugs cause hypersensitivity to pain. Opioid-induced hyperalgesia is one term for what happens to those on long term opiods. I believe it! I have a friend on O for pain, and when she breaks a nail short she emits a blood-curdling scream, followed by outright writhing in pain for an hour or so. It hurts me to see that, because it's as real as anything.

Causes. Hyperalgesia is induced by platelet-activating factor (PAF) which comes about in an inflammatory or an allergic response. This seems to occur via immune cells interacting with the peripheral nervous system and releasing pain-producing chemicals (cytokines and chemokines). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperalgesia

Reading up on it, Platypus Venom is know for this. Too weird.

I have my own set of issues, but strangely enough, pain is not one of them. I generally don't hurt at all,,,, yet. However, I've injured myself enough times to know just how much I hate pain.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on February 28, 2021, 04:16:10 am
Funny you mention allergic repsonse because I believe high histamine was causing the asthma and my nose being stopped up all the time so I guess it's possible it's causing the whole body pain. I can tell you this, the first three months I was on T and it was actually working I had no pain whatsoever. It was glorious. I've had low back issues since I was 18 and I felt so great during those 3 months that I built an in ground swimming pool myself and never got tired nor had my back hurt.

I might have spoke too soon about the asthma because it's back pretty bad today after being gone for the last week or so. I'm trying to think if I forgot a T dose in the last few days but I don't think I did.

Cat, do neurotransmitters play a role in pain perception? I've read that dopamine can act like a pain reliever of sorts. They think it might play a role in fibromyalgia.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 01, 2021, 12:09:11 pm
Cat, do neurotransmitters play a role in pain perception? ...

Absolutely. Take a look at this article: https://sanescohealth.com/blog/pain-and-neurotransmitter-imbalance/

"Serotonin is intricately involved in modulating pain signaling processes. [18] Serotonin may have an inhibitory effect on pain perception;"
"GABA may enhance pain facilitation and decrease the perception of pain."
"Dopamine pathways influence and enhance pain processing and modulation, working to help relieve pain."
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 03, 2021, 06:53:18 am
Well here's something crazy to ponder. I thought that a higher T dose was helping with the asthma and I thought wrong as I mentioned earlier. The asthma has been absolutely terrible for the last 3 days after it almost completely went away for a week or so. Also I've mentioned earlier that diphenhydramine will make the asthma completely disappear but it also knocks me out so I can only take it at night.

I don't even remember how I got off on this subject but I read that caffeine can raise dopamine levels. I think I have low dopamine and it's creating havoc in my body. I've also read that low dopamine can cause asthma, among a multitude of other things that can cause it.

I quit drinking caffeinated drinks about 17 years ago when I found out that it was causing my heart to skip beats. I decided to get a coke and drink it tonight just to see what happened. I figured my heart would start skipping beats again but it didn't. About an hour, maybe less, after drinking it guess what happened? My asthma almost completely disappeared. And 4 hours later it's still gone.

So I started reading on asthma and caffeine and lo and behold doctors are studying it because it seems to help asthma. I've just started reading on this so I'm not completely sure on why it helps but it seems caffeine raises epinephrine and epinephrine is what's in primatene mist. Primatene does very little to help me but maybe that's because it's not enough. I don't know.

This might just be another fluke but tomorrow when the asthma starts I'm going to drink another coke and see what happens. If the asthma disappears then I'll be buying coke in bulk until I figure all of this out. I know I know soft drinks are bad blah blah but at this point I'd lick a baboons ass if it would give me relief from this damn asthma.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 03, 2021, 12:27:50 pm
Of course if caffeine really proves to be an enduring treatment then you can always get it in tablet form and compound it into smaller doses. My experience with caffeine is that chronic administration provides different and poorer results than occasional isolated doses. But obviously millions of people see continuing benefits with daily use.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: cujet on March 04, 2021, 11:03:28 pm
My troubles are likely different than yours. The mitochondrial dysfunction really knocks me down. Interestingly, caffeine helps as do certain amino acids. I find that Amino Energy by ON is a huge help. Along with prednisone and an occasional rev erba sarm type product.

My point is that this stuff started before I turned 50, and over the years I've been able to find products that help immensely. In fact, I'm feeling well lately.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 12, 2021, 08:40:26 pm
Started the wellbutrin a week ago and last night I started feeling down. Today it's worse, heading toward depression. Other than that I feel nothing from it so far. I know it can take weeks but I've been reading reviews on it and most feel something within days. I feel nothing but depression setting in.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: charliebizz on March 13, 2021, 05:36:55 pm
Have you ever tried a different ester ?  T cyp gave me all sorts of wacky side effects. It crushed my cortisol. And I confirmed it with blood and saliva. I changed to enathate and it's been a much better experience.

I do myself always wonder about the long term sides of htpa shutdown.ive been feeling slightly more depressed and harder to enjoy myself. Only been on trt this time around for a year. (been on and off for 11 years). But it also could be situational. With covid restrictions and it being winter and being trapt in the house with a 1 and 3 year old lol
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: ghce on March 13, 2021, 10:15:25 pm
I do myself always wonder about the long term sides of htpa shutdown.ive been feeling slightly more depressed and harder to enjoy myself. Only been on trt this time around for a year. (been on and off for 11 years). But it also could be situational. With covid restrictions and it being winter and being trapt in the house with a 1 and 3 year old lol

OMG a 3 year old, I feel your pain!! same here ours was fine when she was 1 year old, only mildly crazy but now at 3 1/2 .......

You could be right about long term effects of TRT plenty of anecdotal examples of severe depression and suicide even with professionals who know this stuff.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: charliebizz on March 13, 2021, 10:33:27 pm
I do myself always wonder about the long term sides of htpa shutdown.ive been feeling slightly more depressed and harder to enjoy myself. Only been on trt this time around for a year. (been on and off for 11 years). But it also could be situational. With covid restrictions and it being winter and being trapt in the house with a 1 and 3 year old lol

OMG a 3 year old, I feel your pain!! same here ours was fine when she was 1 year old, only mildly crazy but now at 3 1/2 .......

You could be right about long term effects of TRT plenty of anecdotal examples of severe depression and suicide even with professionals who know this stuff.
I feel like you might be referring to Dr John. What's nuts is I was his patient when he passed. I freaked out and jumped right off trt. Now being back on I started questioning again and I even tried to get off for a few weeks. Usually I get off pretty easy not this time. So Im back on lol
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 13, 2021, 10:37:01 pm
I got so dizzy and drunk feeling after taking a wellbutrin this morning that I had to go lay down for awhile. And last night when I went to bed I would have this rush come over my body every few seconds. It would start in the middle and shoot out in all directions. Between that and a different body part jerking every few seconds I barely got any sleep. If this doesn't go away soon I'll be discontinuing wellbutrin.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: charliebizz on March 13, 2021, 11:04:50 pm
I got so dizzy and drunk feeling after taking a wellbutrin this morning that I had to go lay down for awhile. And last night when I went to bed I would have this rush come over my body every few seconds. It would start in the middle and shoot out in all directions. Between that and a different body part jerking every few seconds I barely got any sleep. If this doesn't go away soon I'll be discontinuing wellbutrin.
I had that happen a few years ago when I started low dose lexapro. I never call into work but I had too I couldn't even walk. It went away a few hours later and then I had a few vertigo episodes a couple months later. I was on a super low dose and getting off was a nightmare. I've been off like 8 months and still think I have some lingering effects.

Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 14, 2021, 08:42:24 am
And now my sense of taste is almost completely gone. I sure hope this drug kicks in soon.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 15, 2021, 06:58:07 pm
I think I know why I'm jerking at night when I'm trying to go to sleep. Wellbutrin seems to have caused me to have acquired full on central sleep apnea. I know I need to take a deep breath every time my body jerks and wakes me up. It was terrible last night. I might have to record myself falling asleep and see what it shows.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Osprey on March 18, 2021, 01:39:34 am
I think I know why I'm jerking at night when I'm trying to go to sleep. Wellbutrin seems to have caused me to have acquired full on central sleep apnea. I know I need to take a deep breath every time my body jerks and wakes me up. It was terrible last night. I might have to record myself falling asleep and see what it shows.

https://www.e-jsm.org/journal/view.php?number=91

"Sleep-onset central sleep apnea is not uncommon phenomenon, and is usually regarded as a normal sleep pattern."
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: charliebizz on March 18, 2021, 10:14:37 am
My troubles are likely different than yours. The mitochondrial dysfunction really knocks me down. Interestingly, caffeine helps as do certain amino acids. I find that Amino Energy by ON is a huge help. Along with prednisone and an occasional rev erba sarm type product.

My point is that this stuff started before I turned 50, and over the years I've been able to find products that help immensely. In fact, I'm feeling well lately.
would you say trt could have added to some of your issues. Or did all your current health issues start before trt ?
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 19, 2021, 01:02:59 am
My troubles are likely different than yours. The mitochondrial dysfunction really knocks me down. Interestingly, caffeine helps as do certain amino acids. I find that Amino Energy by ON is a huge help. Along with prednisone and an occasional rev erba sarm type product.

My point is that this stuff started before I turned 50, and over the years I've been able to find products that help immensely. In fact, I'm feeling well lately.
would you say trt could have added to some of your issues. Or did all your current health issues start before trt ?

I have no doubt in my mind that most if not all of my current troubles are due to trt. It has shut something down in my body. Whether it's dopamine or something else I don't know but I think this is why a lot of guys still have trouble after getting their T levels right. Trt shuts something down in our body which causes more trouble.

Seriously, I had nothing wrong with me before trt and a few months after I go on trt I start having one issue after the other.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 19, 2021, 02:02:43 am
.... Trt shuts something down in our body which causes more trouble.
...

I've been arguing this point for a while now, although definitive evidence is lacking.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: ghce on March 19, 2021, 02:13:21 am
.... Trt shuts something down in our body which causes more trouble.
...

I've been arguing this point for a while now, although definitive evidence is lacking.

I am in agreement with that but who knows what else trt shuts down or negatively modulates to our detriment, whilst it seems that medical knowledge is vast there probably is more unknown than known when it comes to these many varied feedback loops and all their interactions.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 19, 2021, 04:28:44 am
.... Trt shuts something down in our body which causes more trouble.
...

I've been arguing this point for a while now, although definitive evidence is lacking.

I've searched and searched for a connection to trt and I come up empty every time. I think it's because it just hasn't been studied enough yet.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 19, 2021, 11:34:28 am
...
I've searched and searched for a connection to trt and I come up empty every time. I think it's because it just hasn't been studied enough yet.

While there's certainly more going on, I found that normalizing progesterone, kisspeptin, GnRH, LH and FSH fixes the problems I've had that might reasonably be associated with TRT. It's unclear if this solution is widely applicable, and its complexity reduces its practicality. One other guy that I know of is trying this approach. It will be interesting to see what he reports.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 19, 2021, 05:14:16 pm
What are you doing for gnrh? Ive never even heard of kisspeptin. I'll have to read up on that.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 19, 2021, 07:04:40 pm
Some background on GnRH:
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/is-gnrh-suppression-hurting-us.20407/

Some background on kisspeptin:
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/kisspeptin-suppression-under-trt-can-it-affect-mood-and-libido.21374/

My trial with GnRH:
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/pituitary-restart-while-on-trt-promising-initial-results-with-gnrh-plus-enclomiphene.20864/
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 19, 2021, 09:47:21 pm
I'll have to read all of that again because my memory and absorption of facts is at an all time terrible right now but do you really think this is helping? I mean is it a definite change for the good or is it more like yeah I think this might be helping me? I have no problem with trying this regimen for awhile and see what happens.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 20, 2021, 01:34:26 am
I've had 7+ months of consistently good libido and sexual function. The last time I had such a good stretch was before I became hypogonadal, approaching a decade ago. I also have some semi-objective evidence of cognitive improvement. I perceive it as a definite change for the good—so much so that I happily endure multiple injections daily to continue the protocol.

The skeptic must note that this is one individual doing an unblinded test, and the evaluation is partly subjective. Even if we accept that I'm not fooling myself somehow, I can't say how likely it is that others will achieve the same success. I've argued that it's unlikely that I just stumbled onto a protocol that would usually require a lot of fine-tuning. This makes me hopeful that the general principle has a broad application: normalize testosterone and restore the suppressed hormones to reasonable levels and maybe good things will happen.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 20, 2021, 08:44:40 am
If you'll send me your exact regimen I'd be more than willing to try it out. Maybe I missed it but I don't see anywhere that states you're using kisspeptin. I've been reading on it tonight and it seems quite interesting.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 20, 2021, 03:09:30 pm
I put the protocol in a separate post: https://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=16143.0
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 20, 2021, 06:41:16 pm
Did you try kisspeptin at all? If so what were your results? To me it seems like kisspeptin would be the way to go because it's been proven to raise lh and fsh plus they think it plays a part in libido, mood and even metabolism. I know there's not a lot of info on it right now but I did come across a study that gives the dose they used and the lh and fsh results from each dose.

I do think you're on the right track with this. I've always thought that trt shuts down some vital component that we need to feel normal but I always came at it from the angle of balls being shutdown therefore they aren't producing something that we need.

I'm thinking about trying just kisspeptin first at different doses and see what happens. I've still got a lot of reading to do before I decide to try it tho.

Another thought that I've had, if kisspeptin, gnrh or something similar is what we're missing then it seems like if we quit trt then you would think there would be a window, even a small one, where our T is high enough and we're also producing grnh and we would feel better even if just for a little while. MYbe, maybe not but I do find this interesting.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 20, 2021, 09:38:14 pm
Kisspeptin is intriguing. It seemed to improve EQ and sensitivity in a dose-dependent way. It's also a possible candidate for monotherapy in cases where the HPTA dysfunction is upstream.

...
Another thought that I've had, if kisspeptin, gnrh or something similar is what we're missing then it seems like if we quit trt then you would think there would be a window, even a small one, where our T is high enough and we're also producing grnh and we would feel better even if just for a little while. MYbe, maybe not but I do find this interesting.

This is unlikely, as both androgens and estrogens are suppressive at the hypothalamus. Levels would need to fall pretty low to trigger production, and there is probably a startup lag from shutdown of at least days to weeks.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 21, 2021, 08:06:23 am
I don't understand why levels would need to fall pretty low to trigger production because that's not how it would normally be. T doesn't have to fall pretty low before we start producing more. Anyway, still reading on kisspeptin.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 21, 2021, 12:45:48 pm
The average healthy young guy has peak testosterone in the 600s ng/dL and troughs around 300-400. How many guys on TRT are running this low? Beyond that, because it doesn’t respond to negative HPTA feedback, exogenous testosterone appears more suppressive than endogenous testosterone. For example, put this average young guy on TRT at too low of a dose and you can probably get him into full HPTA suppression with serum T levels lower than his normal trough. This means it will take hypogonadal levels to end the suppression. Add in the significant time lag to restart native production and there’s no way you can have both decent residual testosterone from TRT and good natural production of the upstream hormones.

The closest thing to realizing this scenario would be a restart to natural production followed by use of Natesto. Nastesto is so short-acting that its HPTA suppression is mild.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 22, 2021, 01:05:02 am
It would depend on their dose and ester they're using as to how low their low is and how quickly it comes about. I need to look at some old labs because I remember when I first saw the idiot endo I rememeber he did labs and it had been 11 days since my last 200 mg shot and I think my T was in the 300s. I think he checked my lh and fsh at the same time. I'll have to find those labs because my curiosity is up.

I'm about to buy some kisspeptin and gnrh. Gotta decide if I want to try just kisspeptin first or go ahead with your regimen. Where are you getting your gonaderelin and enclomiphene?
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 22, 2021, 03:12:56 am
I get my enclomiphene via Defy Medical. My current batch is from Tailor Made Pharmacy, but it sounds like Empower will be the source in the future.

Gonadorelin can be obtained from Hallandale pharmacy with a prescription and otherwise as a research chemical from Peptide Sciences.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 23, 2021, 05:34:15 am
Got some stuff coming, should be here this week. I quit the wellbutrin 3 days ago, that shit ain't good for nothing. I still have no sense of taste, some lingering depression, still a wee bit dizzy feeling and still herk and jerk while I'm trying to fall asleep. I guess it's one of those things where if you need it it's great but if you don't it's awful. I'm going to wait until this bit of depression is gone before I start the other regimen, hopefully it'll be gone by the time I get my stuff.

Can you walk me thru the need for the enclomiphene? I've never used any serms before so I've never studied them.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 23, 2021, 12:28:59 pm
...
Can you walk me thru the need for the enclomiphene? I've never used any serms before so I've never studied them.

Estrogens act at the pituitary to reduce production of the gonadotropins, LH and FSH. This won't interfere with any independent benefits of GnRH, but if you're trying to get away from hCG and experience the separate benefits of making your own LH and FSH then a SERM such as enclomiphene is used to block the suppressive effects of estradiol at the pituitary. SERM use may be a balancing act: there's speculation that SERMs in excess could block the desirable effects of estradiol elsewhere in the brain. This is why I dropped my enclomiphene dose to 12.5 mg EOD even though the gonadotropin production may not be quite as good as with daily use.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: seppuku on March 23, 2021, 02:12:11 pm
...
Can you walk me thru the need for the enclomiphene? I've never used any serms before so I've never studied them.

Estrogens act at the pituitary to reduce production of the gonadotropins, LH and FSH. This won't interfere with any independent benefits of GnRH, but if you're trying to get away from hCG and experience the separate benefits of making your own LH and FSH then a SERM such as enclomiphene is used to block the suppressive effects of estradiol at the pituitary. SERM use may be a balancing act: there's speculation that SERMs in excess could block the desirable effects of estradiol elsewhere in the brain. This is why I dropped my enclomiphene dose to 12.5 mg EOD even though the gonadotropin production may not be quite as good as with daily use.

Hi Cataceous - i've been facinated lately reading here, and on Nelsons site about your trials and experimentation with regards to your own protocol. I hope people here appeciate what a fountain of knowledge you are and the advice you freely give out.  Quick question - have you found through adding on the enclomiphene to your trt that it's increased your LH /FSH levels?  I'm guessing if it has it wouldn't be by a huge amount due to the exogenous testosterone, but has it increased enough to have an effect on other things like your dhea levels, or testicular volume?  That to me seems like the holy grail of hormone replacement for men, avoiding, or at least reducing the suppression that occurs with trt.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 23, 2021, 03:41:40 pm
...
Hi Cataceous - i've been facinated lately reading here, and on Nelsons site about your trials and experimentation with regards to your own protocol. I hope people here appeciate what a fountain of knowledge you are and the advice you freely give out.  Quick question - have you found through adding on the enclomiphene to your trt that it's increased your LH /FSH levels?  I'm guessing if it has it wouldn't be by a huge amount due to the exogenous testosterone, but has it increased enough to have an effect on other things like your dhea levels, or testicular volume?  That to me seems like the holy grail of hormone replacement for men, avoiding, or at least reducing the suppression that occurs with trt.

You're one of the ones I was learning from originally, and I'm happy to be similarly sharing knowledge with others.

The combination of enclomiphene and GnRH can raise LH and FSH under TRT, and did in my case, as documented here (https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/pituitary-restart-while-on-trt-promising-initial-results-with-gnrh-plus-enclomiphene.20864/).
(https://www.excelmale.com/forum/attachments/screen-shot-2020-05-31-at-9-31-34-pm-png.9823/)

Enclomiphene by itself will generally not overcome the suppressive effects of TRT. This is because androgens are independently suppressive at the hypothalamus, blocking kisspeptin production, which in turn shuts down GnRH. Use of exogenous GnRH bypasses this problem. It's possible that use of exogenous kisspeptin would do the same.

Interestingly, the protocol does not seem to have noticeably affected progesterone or DHEA-S. I'm not sure why that is. But having even low-normal levels of both LH and FSH has improved testicular and ejaculate volumes considerably, more so than 1,000 IU hCG weekly. It also appears to retain or restore fertility. Endogenous contributions to testosterone are too small to discern. This isn't so surprising given that it was also true with hCG. I expect this will vary depending on the individual; some guys see substantial endogenous testosterone with very modest amounts of hCG.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: seppuku on March 23, 2021, 04:33:51 pm
...
Hi Cataceous - i've been facinated lately reading here, and on Nelsons site about your trials and experimentation with regards to your own protocol. I hope people here appeciate what a fountain of knowledge you are and the advice you freely give out.  Quick question - have you found through adding on the enclomiphene to your trt that it's increased your LH /FSH levels?  I'm guessing if it has it wouldn't be by a huge amount due to the exogenous testosterone, but has it increased enough to have an effect on other things like your dhea levels, or testicular volume?  That to me seems like the holy grail of hormone replacement for men, avoiding, or at least reducing the suppression that occurs with trt.

You're one of the ones I was learning from originally, and I'm happy to be similarly sharing knowledge with others.

The combination of enclomiphene and GnRH can raise LH and FSH under TRT, and did in my case, as documented here (https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/pituitary-restart-while-on-trt-promising-initial-results-with-gnrh-plus-enclomiphene.20864/).
(https://www.excelmale.com/forum/attachments/screen-shot-2020-05-31-at-9-31-34-pm-png.9823/)

Enclomiphene by itself will generally not overcome the suppressive effects of TRT. This is because androgens are independently suppressive at the hypothalamus, blocking kisspeptin production, which in turn shuts down GnRH. Use of exogenous GnRH bypasses this problem. It's possible that use of exogenous kisspeptin would do the same.

Interestingly, the protocol does not seem to have noticeably affected progesterone or DHEA-S. I'm not sure why that is. But having even low-normal levels of both LH and FSH has improved testicular and ejaculate volumes considerably, more so than 1,000 IU hCG weekly. It also appears to retain or restore fertility. Endogenous contributions to testosterone are too small to discern. This isn't so surprising given that it was also true with hCG. I expect this will vary depending on the individual; some guys see substantial endogenous testosterone with very modest amounts of hCG.

Wow, that's a fantastic finding, and a great result Cataceous - LH numbers well within "normal" results. I wonder if over time that will increase even more for you - i'll be definitely keeping tabs on your progress.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 24, 2021, 12:04:01 pm
LH and FSH stabilized around 2 mIU/mL, so they stayed on the low side for me. And with the reduction in enclomiphene they could be a little lower still. I haven't checked in a while; I'm due for lab work and am planning to see where they stand. In any case, the subjective results have remained very good.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 25, 2021, 05:41:40 pm
I don't expect this to help me any but I've got to try it. I still think my issue lies in whatever is causing my kidney numbers and co2 to be out of whack which is causing mild acidosis and it still could be low dopamine causing my issues also. I've been reading up on mao inhibitors and that will be my next experiment after the kisspeptin and gnrh.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: seppuku on March 26, 2021, 08:16:06 am
I don't expect this to help me any but I've got to try it. I still think my issue lies in whatever is causing my kidney numbers and co2 to be out of whack which is causing mild acidosis and it still could be low dopamine causing my issues also. I've been reading up on mao inhibitors and that will be my next experiment after the kisspeptin and gnrh.

Fingers crossed you wont bite my head off this time but if you haven't  already read this, then you might find it useful -
https://www.kidney.org/atoz/content/facts-about-metabolic-acidosis-and-chronic-kidney-disease
Taking small amounts of bicarb is thought to be healthy anyhow, i take it daily with my creatine
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 27, 2021, 01:32:08 am
I've already tried bicarb and any other thing I could think of to bring my co2 level up. Trust me when I say I studied kidneys for 2-3 years with no luck on changing anything.

Got the kisspeptin and gonadorelin today but I forgot to get any bac water. 🤦🏻‍♂️ I've got some but it's out of date. I don't know if bac water actually goes bad or not but I'm afraid to use it thinking it'll ruin the kisspeptin or gnrh.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 28, 2021, 02:30:42 am
I don't know how fast benzyl alcohol degrades. I doubt it would ruin the peptides, but it might not provide as much bacteriostatic protection.

What sort of protocol are you considering?
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 28, 2021, 06:47:25 pm
I'm thinking about starting with just kisspeptin first for a couple of days at 200 mcg every 2-3 hours. If I don't feel anything then add enclomiphene, not sure the dose yet. I only have 5 mg of kisspeptin so it's not gonna last but a few days. I'll run that out completely. If I feel nothing with that then start the gnrh at the same dose and frequency. If I feel nothing with that then I'm gonna say either this won't work for me or I'm still missing something else also. I'm still leaning toward dopamine but I have no clue really. I've got some seligiline on the way and will be reading up on it some more.

I have some questions for you, did you start the selegiline before or after you started the gnrh regimen? Do you watch what you eat carefully and have you had any BP episodes due to the seligiline? Did you get worse before better on the seligiline, or did it cause depression like the wellbutrin did me? Did I also read correctly that you said you felt something after the very first dose on gnrh?
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 28, 2021, 09:13:33 pm
Given that I've seen noticeable effects with both 5 and 10 mcg doses of kisspeptin (five times per day) I'd suggest starting much lower than 200 mcg. It's hard to predict what kind of reaction you'd have to such large amounts. Additionally, you are not going to restart your HPTA in just a few days, or probably even in a few weeks. And a good rule of thumb for hormonal adjustments is that after stabilization on a new protocol one should give it 2-3 months before evaluating the results. Perhaps a reasonable compromise is to try multiple small injections daily for as long as you can stand it, then switch to one somewhat larger one each day. Be again cautioned that little is known about chronic administration of supraphysiological doses.

Here's how things went for me overall:
T=0, start GnRH and enclomiphene
T=2 months, start selegiline at 1.25 mg per day, small improvement in mood and motivation noted within a couple weeks
T=4 months, libido now consistently good after gradually improving over previous 4 months
T=5 months, start kisspeptin, within one month improvements noted in EQ and sensitivity
T=9 months, start phenethylamine at ~80 mg per day, modest increase in energy noted
T=12 months, increase the selegiline dose to 2.5 mg/day, within two weeks mood boosted to consistently good, motivation much improved

I'd been thinking the selegiline was not much of a factor in the return of libido, but with the timing I can't be sure about that; the variable wasn't isolated.

I have not modified my diet, nor have I had any blood pressure issues.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 29, 2021, 02:01:18 am
Returning to the subject of excessive pain sensitivity from a few pages back: I've been trying a different PEA these past few weeks. It is palmitoylethanolamide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmitoylethanolamide), as opposed to phenethylamine. While the results are not dramatic, they seem to be tangible; it feels as though overall pain sensitivity is damped down a bit, which is a welcome effect. Something to research further and consider.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 29, 2021, 07:13:46 am
I found a couple studies that used 1mcg per kg of weight in their study but I can't seem to find them now. I'll learn to bookmark stuff one of these days. But that might have been just a one time shot. I do recall the study saying they saw results rather quickly. I wanna say it doubled LH in a few hours and had about the same result on T. I'm not necessarily after making endogenous T right now, I'm after the supposed effects of kisspeptin. I don't buy into this it takes months to see results either. I've never taken any meds that took more than a few days to feel the effects whether good or bad. Hell, trt gave me massive morning wood 3 or 4 days after the first shot. By day 9 it was like there was never anything wrong with me. That damn wellbutrin brought depression on in a week's time. I need to find those studies again before I jump in feet first and make sure what their dose was and how frequent. I know one part of the study was a steady infusion of kisspeptin and I believe they saw a massive gain in LH and T. I might just try a once a day dose at first and see what happens. I've gotta find those studies again first.

So you're saying you didn't feel something after the first dose? I could have swore I read that somewhere? Looking at your time line it seems like the MAOI is what gave you most of your improvements.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 29, 2021, 08:00:40 am
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/96/8/E1228/2833644

Here's one of the studies. It was a range of IV bolus doses over weeks with the lowest dose being .01and highest being 3 mcg/kg. It appears they would do 90 minutes sessions of monitoring after the shot. The IV infusion was 4mcg/kg per hour and it went on for several hours at that dose.

Anyway, I'm not done researching it yet so I've yet to decide the exact dose and frequency. What would be nice is to do like a 100-200 mcg dose in the morning, check LH and FSH an hour later then go back that afternoon and check it again just to see if it was still elevated from basically zero. It doesn't really matter tho if I feel nothing from it unless I was after keeping my balls alive and plumped up.

On the dopamine side, I was talking with a friend today and she was telling me she has been put on atomoxetine. She claims she already feels better in just a few days of being on it. She also inormed me that she use to be on wellbutrin back when we were "really good friends" and that explained why she couldn't get enough. 🤣 She was on brand name and the insurance company switched her to generic and she said it was like night and day difference so she quit it altogether. This gives me hope that maybe I can eventually find something to raise my dopamine levels and feel human again.

 I really don't think the kisspeptin nor gnrh is going to do me any good and here's why. For the first three months on trt I felt awesome, like a teenager. I would bet pretty heavy that my LH and FSH were shut down within days which means my kisspeptin and gnrh were shutdown also yet I felt great for a long time after that so that tells me that's not my issue if it took 3 months to start feeling like garbage. I do know my balls were basically non existent a couple months into it so that tells me I was in full shutdown yet still felt great.

I would like to link a drop in dopamone to trt  but I haven't been able to yet. Of course I've read these opinions that trt raises dopamine so high at first that it will cause down regulation of dopamine receptors but I need concrete evidence of that. It also seems like if you got off trt for a year like I did that dopamine receptors would up regulate again and trt would feel great for a few months again so I don't buy that explanation.

I'll do this experiment and then probably get back on raising dopamine somehow.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 29, 2021, 01:53:11 pm
You're recalling the statement I made about my first day on GnRH, when I had a brief flash of really good libido. While it's nice to get a promising hint like that, the reality is that it took months before I was sure I was seeing lasting improvements. Patience is essential.

The kisspeptin research was conducted on healthy individuals with functional HPTAs. It's not reasonable to expect the same results when starting from a state of hypothalamic and pituitary atrophy.

Anecdotally there can be quite a large time lag between an HPTA shutdown and the appearance of various negative effects. I had pretty good results on TRT for some years, but things gradually went downhill. I confirmed that this was in part due to prolactin creeping up. But simply pushing prolactin back down with cabergoline was not a complete solution. Instead, restoring the upstream hormones to realistic levels is what fixed things. I can't exclude a contribution by selegiline, but I still suspect it was negligible with respect to improvements in libido and sexual function.

Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 29, 2021, 05:39:51 pm
Yeah that's what I was referring to. I didn't have the time line you posted earlier so it appeared that you immediately felt results going by what you had posted.

I don't understand why it wouldn't be realistic. Just because you've been shut down doesn't mean the hypothalamus and pituitary are dead. Yes, it might take a little while for the balls to come back fully and produce T but I would think lh and fsh should bounce back almost immediately. That's not what I'm after anyway. As I said I'm after these feel good effects that kisspeptin is suppose to have on the brain and possibly some affects that lh and fsh might have, which I'm doubting will affect me as I stated.

I don't agree with your last statement at all but I do think that it is entirely subjective. If my balls basically disappear in a month then I'm pretty sure that's gonna have a negative effect right then and there. How can it be delayed if all the upstream hormones are gone and those hormones are what is supposedly making you feel better? If they're not there then they can't be doing their job therefore you will feel it. Like I said I just don't buy into this it takes months to feel the effects from this or that, unless you are taking a minute amount of said drug or supplement or such and such level gradual drops over a long period of time.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 29, 2021, 08:21:28 pm
The graph I posted above shows that I didn't get appreciable LH production until 40-50 days in. It's a marathon, not a sprint. My experience also tells me that the best results are obtained by imitating normal physiology as closely as we can. I don't see how taking very large amounts of kisspepin for a short period of time is going to be reflective of the results one would have with realistic doses over a long period.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 30, 2021, 05:05:37 pm
And you were taking a very small dose in my opinion not to mention doing more than one thing at a time. That's what I was referring to. If it takes months to see any results then I'd say the dose is way too small. I mean yeah you might get there eventually but why waste all that time? Once you get there then OK back the dose off until you see things changing direction the other way. As you can see from the study at I believe the 100 or 200 mcg bolus lh and fsh jumped quite a bit and quickly. That's why I want to do labs like an hour after a dose and then several hours later to see if I'm still getting any effects. Why shoot up every few hours if you don't have to?

Do we even know how much kisspeptin the average body makes? I know where my lh and fsh are just a few weeks after being off T and they are both above range so I'd say mimicking that would be a good start. That's why I want to do labs along the way and see what's going on.

I don't see how taking a larger dose wouldn't give at least a glimpse of what it's going to do, within reason of course. I'm not talking about shooting up a whole bottle at once but I am leaning toward 100 - 200 mcg a day. I just dont think I could keep up with shots every two hours.

Like I said I don't buy into this taking months to see results or taking months or years to see ill effects from a shut down. It's never happened for me with anything. That's like saying I'm going to cut your balls off but you won't feel the effects for years or I'm going to take your thyroid out but you won't feel it for months or years. That's just not logical. Or like saying I could give you this much and get there quicker but were gonna do a 1/4 dose and take months to get there. That's just not logical.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on March 30, 2021, 05:07:04 pm
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, you seem quite knowledgeable but I just approach things differently than you apparently.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on March 31, 2021, 01:47:17 am
We can look at the research on testosterone to get an idea of the possible time spans involved when tinkering with the sex hormones:

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved

... This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects are attained.
...
Effects on sexual interest appear after 3 weeks plateauing at 6 weeks, with no further increments expected beyond. Changes in erections/ejaculations may require up to 6 months. Effects on quality of life manifest within 3–4 weeks, but maximum benefits take longer. Effects on depressive mood become detectable after 3–6 weeks with a maximum after 18–30 weeks. Effects on erythropoiesis are evident at 3 months, peaking at 9–12 months. Prostate-specific antigen and volume rise, marginally, plateauing at 12 months; further increase should be related to aging rather than therapy. Effects on lipids appear after 4 weeks, maximal after 6–12 months. Insulin sensitivity may improve within few days, but effects on glycemic control become evident only after 3–12 months. Changes in fat mass, lean body mass, and muscle strength occur within 12–16 weeks, stabilize at 6–12 months, but can marginally continue over years. Effects on inflammation occur within 3–12 weeks. Effects on bone are detectable already after 6 months while continuing at least for 3 years.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188848/

Taking excessive doses of testosterone is not going to make things go faster; it's just going to cause side effects, making it harder or impossible to wait for the better results to come.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on April 01, 2021, 03:14:24 am
It took 9 days after my first dose on trt to feel human again, and this was coming out of a MAJOR depression. It took 3 or 4 days to get morning wood like a teenager. Somewhere around the two month mark I had already dropped 25 lbs with no diet or exercise so you can see why I call that time line hogwash. It has never taken me more than a few days to a couple of weeks to feel the effects of anything. Besides that were not talking about trt and using a slow ester, we're talking about kisspeptin raising LH and FSH and going by that study the amount LH and FSH is raised is quite dose dependent up to a certain dose. I just don't see the need in dragging it out any further than necessary with a minute dose, it's just not logical.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on April 01, 2021, 12:20:05 pm
Certainly everyone is different. Nonetheless, in terms of dosing it's like the difference between a guy being on TRT at 75 mg TC per week or blasting at 500 mg per week. The effects are not going to be the same. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes you to have gonadotropin production. The results from Royal Medical Center suggest that at these high doses enclomiphene isn't needed. But it's questionable that the experience compares well to what would be expected with physiological levels.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on April 03, 2021, 10:47:47 pm
Is there a reason for enclomiphene over other serms? It seems enclomiphene is faked a lot with these resesrch peptide places.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on April 04, 2021, 02:12:28 am
Compared to tamoxifen, enclomiphene is better for HPTA stimulation and also may be safer with respect to side effects. I've seen those claims of fakery. It's unfortunate. I find it tenuous to rely on at most two pharmaceutical-grade suppliers of enclomiphene.

There are other SERMs, such as toremifene and raloxifene. But is seems as though they are less popular for this application.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on April 04, 2021, 04:06:53 pm
It looks like I'm going to go with tamoxifen. I don't want to waste time and money with a possible fake enclomiphene. I don't have the luxury of having a doctor that will even listen much less want to try things outside the box so I'm stuck with doctoring myself and finding the meds online.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on April 05, 2021, 01:44:54 am
Personally I couldn't tolerate tamoxifen. Even a mere 2.5 mg daily caused unrelenting GI discomfort. If I didn't have access to pharmaceutical-grade enclomiphene then I might be tempted to try Nootropic Source's offering. Some of their other products seem to have the claimed substances, though at what purity I don't know.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on April 05, 2021, 06:45:08 am
Somebody walk me thru this because I'm confused. A seem is used by bodybuilders as a pct meaning it causes the body to produce LH and FSH. It's also used a low T therapy by blocking e receptors and raising LH and FSH. So how do you know if your LH and FSH being raised is from the serm or from kisspeptin/gnrh? Does the high T level due to trt keep the pituitary from producing LH and FSH even if on a serm? In other words even with e receptors blocked it won't produce unless it is stimulated with kisspeptin or gnrh due to higher T levels from trt?
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on April 06, 2021, 02:16:27 am
That's close. It's the high testosterone at the hypothalamus that maintains suppression of the HPTA when a SERM is used with TRT. The pituitary is suppressed by estrogens and not androgens. When we introduce exogenous kisspeptin or GnRH we are bypassing the suppressed natural production at the hypothalamus and directly stimulating the pituitary. The SERM prevents higher estrogen from suppressing the pituitary's manufacture of LH and FSH.

It's less clear why SERMs are effective in natural men. Somehow endogenous testosterone is not as suppressive at the hypothalamus as exogenous testosterone. This could in part be dose-related.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on April 06, 2021, 06:03:18 pm
So you have to have low e for this to work or does a serm only block e at the pituitary? I can't find the info I'm looking for when researching serms. I mostly just get places selling serms.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on April 07, 2021, 01:43:37 am
For this to work the pituitary must believe that estradiol is not high. SERMs block estradiol at both the pituitary and the hypothalamus.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on April 08, 2021, 06:43:57 am
What is considered high? My e is always right around 20. That's not high so technically i shouldn't need a serm but I bet I will which might cause low e. I've had low e before and that is no fun at all. I'm beginning to like this protocol less all the time.

By the way, I've been on 100mcg of kisspeptin only once a day for a week. My mood has improved, I'm more happy, not an old curmudgeon, and I seem to be more interested in a lot of projects I've been putting off for 6 years now. I do go thru phases where I will take an interest in projects for awhile but then fall back down to the low I'm usually at so time will time. I will try to get labs tomorrow or Friday to check LH and FSH.

 Heres something else weird, something is making me piss a lot more than normal. Because of whatever is going on with my kidneys I could go 6 or 7 hours after my first mornng piss before needing to go again. Now I might go 4 or 5 times during the day alone. Seems like I briefly read that kisspeptin had some kind of effect on the kidneys but I didn't go into it.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on April 08, 2021, 01:31:18 pm
What is considered high? My e is always right around 20. That's not high so technically i shouldn't need a serm but I bet I will which might cause low e. I've had low e before and that is no fun at all. I'm beginning to like this protocol less all the time.
...

A high level of estradiol in this context is something above the normal physiology of the individual. It's also not a binary situation. As estradiol rises the production of the gonadotropins is increasingly suppressed. And even so, the Royal Medical Center results seem to show that high levels of GnRH overcome the suppressive effects of estradiol at the pituitary. SERMs do not reduce estradiol. Instead they block estradiol at certain receptors, preventing some actions, but allowing others to proceed.

...
By the way, I've been on 100mcg of kisspeptin only once a day for a week. My mood has improved, I'm more happy, not an old curmudgeon, and I seem to be more interested in a lot of projects I've been putting off for 6 years now. I do go thru phases where I will take an interest in projects for awhile but then fall back down to the low I'm usually at so time will time. I will try to get labs tomorrow or Friday to check LH and FSH.

 Heres something else weird, something is making me piss a lot more than normal. Because of whatever is going on with my kidneys I could go 6 or 7 hours after my first mornng piss before needing to go again. Now I might go 4 or 5 times during the day alone. Seems like I briefly read that kisspeptin had some kind of effect on the kidneys but I didn't go into it.

Some of the kisspeptin research does mention mood improvements.

A casual reading of kisspeptin's role in kidney function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kisspeptin#Role_in_kidney_function) suggests a trend towards greater fluid retention. You wouldn't think this would result in more frequent urination, but maybe it's more complicated than that. It does mean that monitoring blood pressure is a good idea.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on April 10, 2021, 03:17:30 am
You're gonna have the same end result whether you're blocking production of e or blocking the receptor. I've felt that and it's no fun, extreme joint and muscle pain.

Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on April 10, 2021, 11:50:42 am
The "S" in SERM stands for "Selective". This means you can have quite different results depending on the type of estrogen receptor. Check out this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Tissue-specific_estrogenic_and_antiestrogenic_activity_of_SERMs
Every SERM listed is agonistic in bone. With SERMs you are not going to experience all the negative side effects of low estrogen. There are still valid concerns, of course. For example, enclomiphene is antagonistic of estrogen receptors at the hypothalamus and other areas of the brain. There is speculation that this could harm libido due to estrogen's important role therein. But it's not clear-cut. Anecdotally some guys, such as myself, maintain or increase libido while using this drug.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on April 24, 2021, 05:02:37 pm
I understand what the s stands for. You're still blocking estrogen in some areas and possibly raising it in others. Me and e do not get along at all so there's no telling what it would do to me. Doesn't matter because I've stopped everything. I just can't take the body and joint pain while on T. It's becoming unbearable, especially in the mornings. It's all I can do to get out of bed and put weight on my feet some times much less go about day to day business without my entire body hurting. I'm 48 but I literally feel and move like I'm 98. It's never been this bad before. I still believe my issue is dopamine and until I find something that I can take to raise it that doesn't actually cause depression then I'm going to stay on that trail. I'm still waiting on some selegiline that I bought over a month ago. My interest in projects is still up but I go thru phases of that for a few months then I hit bottom again for a few months and physically I'm at a new rock bottom right now. In the last couple of weeks I've started having hot flashes, I acquired vertigo for the first time in my life, the central sleep apnea has gotten a lot worse and I feel like a swollen hog ready for slaughter. Something is gonna have to give eventually whether good or bad.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: BHsb on April 24, 2021, 08:01:33 pm
53Chevy, your journey has been a very difficult one. I would recommend that you consider a few things:

First, sex hormones do not necessarily drive all aspect of the human experience. While DHEA and TRT can provide a positive lift in mood, energy, libido, etc. a number of other things can impact these things as well. Therefore, adding or subtracting one sex hormone or another may or may not be beneficial. Depression alone, with no sex hormone deficiency, can cause a lot of the horrible things you have experienced (low motivation, libido, weight gain, etc.).

Second, exogenous hormone replacement causes a number of downstream events that can impact how you feel. For example, with Testosterone Enanthate, trough levels gradually increase over time. By the time you reach a steady state your peak, trough and avg levels are different from where you started. Maybe you felt good in the beginning, but your physiology may not appreciate the higher levels a few months into treatment. Also, the longer high levels of testosterone linger, the more opportunity there is to convert it to estrogen and DHT. High or low levels of these can make you feel good or bad, too. So, now you are chasing multiple hormones.

My personal feeling is that less is more. I think it's common to feel that if substance X is good for you, then more of substance X is better. With TRT, I think the opposite can often be true. I am not the first to suggest that TRT is not the answer to all things related to mood, energy, libido, etc.

Lastly, you seem to have a (possibly justified) skeptical perception of doctors in general. I think you need a good primary care physician whom you trust that can address your electrolytes, apnea, palpitations, thyroid issues and mood. Human physiology is very complex and a good, competent physician who can quarterback your health and possibly consult with specialists where needed may do you a lot of good.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on April 30, 2021, 07:55:35 pm
Bhsb, I'm going to assume you didn't read the whole thread and possibly only read my last comment because the whole theme of this thread has been that trt screws up other systems in the body and the trick is finding out what exactly it screwed up. No I'm not depressed. You can feel like garbage and have multiple things wrong and not be depressed. It really gets on my nerves when people say "well you must be depressed". No, I'm not. And I will never trust a doctor 100% ever again after I've seen the incompetence and downright don't give a shit attitude by many of them.

I finally got the selegiline yesterday and started on it this morning. We'll see what happens.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: BHsb on May 01, 2021, 06:13:25 pm
Chevy, you are correct. I did not read the entire thread, as it is seven pages long. I would only reiterate my recommendation that it may not be in your best interest to be wary of ALL physicians. I am rooting for you. Please keep posting.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on May 22, 2021, 04:48:30 am
Been on selegiline at 2.5 mg a day for 3 weeks now and the only thing I feel is the insomnia it has caused. It sucks when you can only sleep 2 hours a night. Thank God that has started to go away this week. Other than that I feel absolutely nothing. It amazes me how quickly the bad stuff comes on with new meds but the good stuff takes weeks to months if it ever happens at all. I know yall think I'm impatient but literally everybody I talk to says it took about two weeks for them to feel the effects of their antidepressant or anxiety meds.

The wellbutrin has caused some long lasting effects. I've had heartburn maybe 5 times in my entire life but ever since I took wellbutrin I've had it every single day pretty much all day. Also, something has all of the sudden has caused both of my hands to go numb while I sleep. I literally mean all of the sudden. Why? I have no damn clue. Sometimes it turns into excruciating pain all the way up my arms. I still have hot flashes and have no clue where they are coming from but that didn't start until the wellbutrin. The one good thing is wellbutrin has help me quit smoking. I haven't touched one in over two months.

The body/joint pain is as intense as ever. I can literally do nothing all day and I hurt all over. The bullshit I've been going thru for 6 years now has made me so negative and cynical that I'm about ready to give up on everyhting.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on May 23, 2021, 12:02:06 pm
That's odd that you're getting numb hands while sleeping. Any change in sleeping position that might account for it?

Congrats on quiting smoking. A friend just lost his mom partly due to smoking-related lung cancer. It's not something you'd wish on anyone.

Regarding all that pain, let me again suggest a trial of palmitoylethanolamide for a few weeks. For me the difference has been pretty impressive.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on May 23, 2021, 06:20:06 pm
The only thing that's changed as far as my sleeping would be the insomnia. I personally think being swollen like a hog has something to do with the numbness. Yall can think I'm joking but when I say I'm retaining water and I'm bloated all over I seriously mean it's bad. My sister even noticed how swollen my hands were the other day and I hadn't said a word to her about it. I think the overall swelling could be putting pressure on nerves. The water retention seems to be getting worse. I wake up every morning now with even my forearms so tight and swollen and I have no clue what's causing this. I've tried numerous things and nothing will remedy it. Lasix has gotten to where it does very little. 40 mg would make me pee several times within the first 2-4 hours and at 80 mg I'd be pissing every 15 minutes. Now it barely makes me go. I'm swollen the worst in the morning and my BP was 14/85 this morning. I need to go get a cbc/cmp and see if my sodium level is even higher than it use to be.

I just read up on the side effects of selegiline again and noticed back and leg pain being listed. This might explain my sudden low back pain over the last few weeks. Now it has moved I to my hip which rarely ever happens. I might have to discontinue selegiline because the hip pain is starting to make walking painful and I can't have that but I'll give it a few more weeks first.

I'll have to read up on palmitoylethanolamide. I meant to the last time you mentioned it but completely forget about it.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: cujet on May 25, 2021, 12:47:02 am
Are you sure you don't have an autoimmune disease? Autoimmune diseases of any type are inflammatory in nature, and can cause all sorts of problems, depending on what gets attacked.

In my case, I can't take it anymore. I need to get back on pred. The anti RNP antibodies attack every cell in me.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on May 26, 2021, 07:03:46 am
I'm not sure of anything and have no clue what's wrong with me. I've been in bed for a day and a half due to my lower back going out and I dropped my drill and stuck the drill bit thru my foot. Actually my back went out while bent over doctoring my foot. I'm taking muscle relaxers so in this time I've been knocked out and not eating or drinking much at all. I'm amazed at how skinny my fingers and toes feel and my biceps and forearms aren't all pumped up and tight right now due to the fact of very little sodium or water intake. This makes me believe even more that there's something going on with my kidneys and I'm pretty damn sure it's caused by TRT. I retain damn near every bit of sodium and water I put in my body. If I find out what's causing that then I'd bet everything I own that will lead me to whatever is causing everything else. If I could just get a damn doctor to listen to me and have actual diagnostic skills. I'm a mechanic by trade and hobby and troubleshooting is 75% of the job. Most doctors can't troubleshoot beyond giving drugs for the usual reasons.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on May 26, 2021, 11:51:40 am
Sounds like it's time for some comprehensive lab work. If you can't get a doctor to cooperate then you might just need to buy your own directly, if you're in a state that permits it.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on May 26, 2021, 06:49:50 pm
I've been doing my own lab work for years. The only thing consistently out of whack is low CO2 and my sodium level jumping up from pre trt levels. I've checked numerous things, hormones, vitamin and mineral levels etc and that's the only thing out of whack. But according to a certain doctor that's due to hyperventilation while getting blood drawn and he didn't discuss it any further even tho it's been going on for years. If I can figure out what ails my kidneys then I believe that will solve the whole puzzle.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Mr.L on May 26, 2021, 10:17:07 pm
I am truly not trying to be a dick but How can you be sure that TRT actually caused the problem? Perhaps there was something there before you started it. The symptoms you describe do not sound like a side effect of TRT except the bloat, that can be caused by E2. I am super sensitive to any changes in my E2 levels high or low and even just a shift, within in normal range cause me problems. Have you ever had an MRI? What does your diet look like? Also, how's your gut health? It is possible that you are being exposed to an environmental toxin as well. Where in the country do you live? I know exposure to chemicals associated with factory farms/livestock can wreak some havoc on your health. Finally, you mentioned sleep apnea; are you using a CPAP? I didn't read through the entire thread so I apologize if you have already answered these question.     
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Mr.L on May 26, 2021, 10:22:51 pm
I forgot to mention that I had a lot of the same symptoms when I was younger. I lived in an old Victorian home, it was beautiful and I loved it but there was mold in it. My boys were sick all the time as well. We moved out of that house into a fairly new home and w/in 8 months my boys and I felt great. It was like night and day. Now I ended up feeling like shit again but that was because my T got too low and starting TRT was the best decision I ever made.   
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on May 27, 2021, 08:29:32 am
How can I be sure? Common sense is how. I had nothing wrong with me pre trt and three months later after starting trt everything hits me like a ton of bricks. You can't just shut down the cascade of hormones and not expect things to go haywire.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Mr.L on May 27, 2021, 11:34:49 pm
How can I be sure? Common sense is how. I had nothing wrong with me pre trt and three months later after starting trt everything hits me like a ton of bricks. You can't just shut down the cascade of hormones and not expect things to go haywire.

I understand that you are frustrated; my comment wasn't intended to upset you further. I apologize. However, TRT works for a lot of guys and a lot of your symptoms don't really fit what would be considered a side effect of TRT. I was only offering some insight as I did have a lot of those same symptoms before I started TRT. There is obviously something going on with your health and it isn't outside the realm of possibility that the manifestation of your symptoms starting after TRT was a coincidence. I feel that ruling out that possibility may be folly. Don't you think you should at least consider that it may not be TRT that caused your problems? Obviously it is you choice but sometimes we get so attached to an idea that we close our minds and are blinded to what may be helpful. I am sorry that you are feeling so miserable and I wish there was more that I could do for you. I know what it is like to feel terrible all of the time, to feel hopeless and like no one will listen. I truly hope you find your answers Chevy   
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on May 29, 2021, 04:26:27 pm
I'm not upset with you or anybody else. I'm EXTREMELY frustrated and aggravated. I've been like this for 6 damn years now and it has made me very cynical. No doctor will listen and there seems to be no end to this in sight. I feel like I have lost my 40s entirely due to this. No I do not believe this is just a coincidence and no I haven't focused on just the trt angle but I do believe trt caused this. Ive been at this for 6 years now and I've went thru every system I can think of that might affect me like this. I had zero of these symptoms before trt and trt is the only thing that changed. Every one of my symptoms can be connected to a hormone of some kind being out of whack. No energy, no motivation, no libido, joint pain, memory issues etc. The problem is these symptoms overlap with so many different problems and other than the kidney/water retention issues being the only thing that stands out on labs pre vs post trt that it's gonna be hard to figure out what it is. I focused on just the kidneys for 2 damn years and improved nothing during those 2 years. Like I said you can't just start replacing one hormone and not expect there to be a cascade of side effects eventually. Yes some do great with it and some it never helps. I'm working on the dopamine angle right now because there are some people who believe dopamine takes a hit after awhile when trt is involved and dopamine is the only thing left that might explain the kidney issues.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: BHsb on June 05, 2021, 12:04:26 pm
I am going to respectfully agree with some on this thread that are suggesting that TRT may not be at the root of all your issues. As I mentioned before, I have not read the entire thread (it's long), but I think you mentioned fluid retention, concerns about your kidneys and lasix. I also read previously that you are very leery of the medical establishment. I may be wrong, but this would suggest to me that you are possibly self treating with lasix to address your swelling? Forgive me if I misinterpreted the fact pattern. But, if you are in fact self treating with lasix, you can really insult your kidneys and even cause kidney failure.

Could it be possible that TRT triggered something unpleasant years ago, but all the subsequent interventions (medications, supplements, etc) have caused a complex cascade of problems?

Numbness in both hands can caused by a LOT of things. Common things are common. Most commonly, cubital tunnel or carpal tunnel cause hand numbness. But, this would usually involve only certain fingers/parts of the hand. If it is the entire hand, perhaps it is a peripheral neuropathy (which in turn can be caused by a million underlying entities).

You are frustrated and upset. I wish someone here could suggest a magic bullet to solve your issues. But, (and this is only my humble opinion) I think you would be better off expending your energy on finding the right physician than chasing all your symptoms yourself. I would start with an internist. The right internist will know when a condition is better evaluated by a specialist and refer you appropriately. 
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: cujet on June 06, 2021, 02:28:07 am
I'm not sure of anything and have no clue what's wrong with me. I've been in bed for a day and a half due to my lower back going out


and I dropped my drill and stuck the drill bit thru my foot. 

I've had a hell of a time getting treatment for RNP antibodies (it's like lupus) and it destroys life itself. I don't know that you have autoimmune issues, but getting a blood test for them is not a big deal. Getting treatment is near impossible unless you are dying.

Owwwwwwww!
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on June 07, 2021, 03:00:03 am
I never said that trt was the root of all my issues but I have no doubt that it is the cause of most of my issues. You focusing on lasix and hand numbness is odd to me considering all my other symptoms but I highly doubt 40 mg of lasix will cause kidney damage. I would say that a BP of 150/90 every day all day would do lots more and quicker damage to those tiny little blood vessels in the kidneys than lasix would. Sure if you take an insane amount it'll cause dehydration among other things but ODing on any meds will cause problems. And no my self treating with supplements and other things are not triggering anything. When you spend a year at a time taking basically nothing and still feel like garbage then those supps and drugs are not the cause. TRT has shut down something in my body. I can't understand why that is such a strange concept to some when we already know for a fact that it suppresses and shuts down certain systems. Cat seems to be a prime example of that and I'm glad that he figured his out. And you damn well better believe I have zero faith in doctors when it comes to diagnosing something other than the most common issues. When you have them ignore symptoms, call you a liar or flat out lie to you it's kinda hard to trust them. One doctor, who is or at least use to be on this forum and is supposedly a top dog in TRT, ignored my low CO2, said it was from hyperventilating even tho I actually breathe quite slow and shallow, and told me trt doesn't cause high hematocrit and hemoglobin. Yeah buddy. Needless to say I haven't wasted any more time on him. I'm no dummy by any stretch and I will not be treated as such. I know my body very well because I've been living in it for 48 years. It's kind of odd how I basically had one symptom then get on trt and start having multiples symptoms pop up all at once.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: cujet on June 11, 2021, 07:38:34 pm
How can I be sure? Common sense is how. I had nothing wrong with me pre trt and three months later after starting trt everything hits me like a ton of bricks. You can't just shut down the cascade of hormones and not expect things to go haywire.

People have been removing testicles from animals and people alike for thousands of years, with no obvious health defects related, other than a propensity to gain weight. Testosterone is absolutely helpful when at proper levels, but when not abused, it's proper use is "probably" not a catalyst for an entire host of health issues. I make little to none naturally, and when using it correctly, it is a help. It's not a cure for anything. Furthermore, I can function just fine with levels from 25 ng/dl to 1200 ng/dl. Interestingly, I just got tested and T levels spiked to over 1200 due to a new application method (using a transdermal carrier). I just makes me horny and sleep fewer hours when levels are high.



Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on June 12, 2021, 11:48:46 am
...
People have been removing testicles from animals and people alike for thousands of years, with no obvious health defects related, other than a propensity to gain weight. ...

I think it's a little more complicated. This is largely true when the castration is done before sexual maturity, though it neglects known problems such as "osteoporosis, failure of closure of the epiphyses, reactive pituitary hyperplasia, shrinkage of the prostate, and development of gynecomastia".[R (https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/84/12/4324/2864451)] I can't find the reference at the moment, but I did read a discussion on the difficulties encountered with later castration. I'd argue that many of us who developed hypogonadism later in life have first-hand experience with the symptoms.
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: Cataceous on June 12, 2021, 12:36:02 pm
Found a reference. Referred to in this post (https://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=9451.msg82928#msg82928).

Quote
... Further, as will be examined later, it seems that orchiectomies performed at early ages have many positive effects on health, whereas orchiectomies performed later in life have fewer positive effects, and may even negatively affect some aspects of health.
[R (http://lesswrong.com/lw/lm4/effects_of_castration_on_the_life_expectancy_of/)]
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on June 14, 2021, 05:42:15 pm
How can I be sure? Common sense is how. I had nothing wrong with me pre trt and three months later after starting trt everything hits me like a ton of bricks. You can't just shut down the cascade of hormones and not expect things to go haywire.

People have been removing testicles from animals and people alike for thousands of years, with no obvious health defects related, other than a propensity to gain weight. Testosterone is absolutely helpful when at proper levels, but when not abused, it's proper use is "probably" not a catalyst for an entire host of health issues. I make little to none naturally, and when using it correctly, it is a help. It's not a cure for anything. Furthermore, I can function just fine with levels from 25 ng/dl to 1200 ng/dl. Interestingly, I just got tested and T levels spiked to over 1200 due to a new application method (using a transdermal carrier). I just makes me horny and sleep fewer hours when levels are high.

What's crazy is you are actually serious with this. If you function just fine without trt then why are you on it? Why should anybody bother with trt if we can all function just fine without it. It's a known medical fact that low T causes all kinds of issues and it's becoming more clear that trt can cause a host of issues also. Like I said cat is a prime example of that. Wow, I've never seen a trt forum be against trt before. Lol
Title: Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
Post by: 53chevy on June 14, 2021, 05:45:17 pm
I develop low T due to dhea use. I get on trt and feel great for three months then all of the sudden that all goes away but it's only coincidence that it happened at the same time I went on trt?? Seriously?? Wowee.