Peak Testosterone Forum

General Category => Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health => Topic started by: RC15 on September 21, 2012, 07:23:30 am

Title: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on September 21, 2012, 07:23:30 am
Issue: sub clinical testosterone levels that GP and Endo do not believe to be a problem

Test Results:
03/29/2006
TSH .5 uIU/ml

07/12/2011 (20 years old)
Total T - 310 ng/dl
TSH 1.797 uIU/ml

08/01/2011
Total T- 432 ng/dl
LH 6.2 mIU/ml
FSH 4.7 mIu/ml
Prolactin 11.9 ng/ml

09/17/2012 (21 years old)
Total T- 364 ng/dl
TSH 1.991 uIU/ml

THis site is an eye opener. I can relate to every low T story, but yet i am so young. I am not going to list all of my symptoms because i have them all. all i can say is my life has become complete HELL, I literally feel like i am dead inside. I have totally reclused from the population. I am a senior in college at a major University and actually a pretty good looking guy and have attractive women who are into me. I hate to admit it but i havent been laid in 3 years  although i have had some failed attempts, so i guess i can count that for what its worth, i lived by myself junior year in a shit hole apt and didnt care, i dont use facebook, the list goes on. i dont even know what ive become, and the weird thing is that through it all i havent cared one bit. Also i can relate to the not looking like you have low T deal, i am into lifting and i am more muscular than most of my peers nothing crazy but in better shape and more muscular than most i am just baffled. i dont eat processed garbage, never drink/smoke/ or do anything that could have done this to me.  No use of steroids or any thing just some natty test boosters like all the rest of guys my age.

I was reading up on the stress induced secondary hypo condition that you have been talking about and think that really could apply to me. I have been a big worrier my whole life for some reason.

Peak T, help me out... Guide me please. I know my life can be turned around because i am still so young. I want to THRIVE.
My biggest obstacle is my GP and endo dont want to admit it because i am "normal" and fall into that BS lab range of 240 - 900. Enough bitching , i just want to fix this and start living. I really feel for the members on this board who suffered with this into their adulthood's i literally couldn't do it.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: SED on September 21, 2012, 10:43:52 am
Quick question: do you have morning erections?
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on September 21, 2012, 11:11:00 am
Never, i also never experience those random erections or sexual thoughts throughout the day like I would in high school
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: SED on September 21, 2012, 12:36:59 pm
Never, i also never experience those random erections or sexual thoughts throughout the day like I would in high school
I think it is low T related. But stressing yourself and feeling like your dead inside will do more harm to you. I know, because I'm in the same situation, even worser
than you. Try to think positive (it is hard, I know that also), it will help. You're a young man with a healthy lifestyle so you don't have any vascular problems.
My advice: relax and go and find a good doctor. I'm sure you will be fine in a short period of time.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: PeakT on September 21, 2012, 02:48:42 pm
Just got a sec here, because I have to take my son to school.

First of all, I am going to say the obvious:  it is NOT normal to have no libido and no morning erections at your age.  You must work and work on all of this until you get it solved.

However, the good news is that it's pretty likely most of your problem will be helped by increasing your testosterone.  Of course, only you and your doctor can decide how or if to do that, but at least you know there is an open door there.

You should read this thread about a young guy - not as young as you - that had VERY low testosterone and was dramatically helped:

https://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=513.0

Also, I highly advise laying off the testosterone boosters until you figure out what is going on with you.

Also, what do your doctors say?  Sounds like they haven't found anything wrong except the low testosterone, right?

And only consume undenatured wheys:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Whey_Excitotoxins_Glutamic_Acid
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Whey_Undenatured

One last question:  are you overweight?  How are you eating right now?
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on September 21, 2012, 03:46:42 pm
My doctor just does not seem concerned even after conveying all of my symptoms. I have pretty much self diagnosed myself, researched this topic heavily for a while now, and gotten my labs done. My parents are starting to realize this is actually a problem and see that it makes sense for me and they feel absolutely horrible and are willing to do anything. I had a panic attack last night, i feel so cold right now like i always do (hands/ feet/ penis) (TSH??), along with constant underarm sweating, feel like i have no test running through my body. My parents came to my college town and picked me up early this morning and my father is literally willing to get me Testosterone in the meantime while waiting to get back in with my doctors.  I would go in to the ER but were afraid they might think this is all in my head, because they really don't seem to understand hormone deficiencies and how this stuff can happen from low T, Its not this depression BS that they want to diagnose everyone as having. My symptoms are literally that bad right now and have just been so bad the last week once i realized that i actually am facing the problem of Low Test which in turn makes it even worse, i had the feeling i was suffering from this since my first blood test over a year ago, but now i know that i am for sure.

I haven't had BF levels measured ever, but i have outline of abdominals so I'm thinking I'm around 14% - 15%,  I'm 6'1" 190lbs was leaner literally a few months ago with no change in diet or energy expenditure. Its as if I've had these symptoms for a long time now but in literally the last 3 weeks they have hit me even harder. I was never overweight, puberty took me forever though and just always seemed to be the "late bloomer", had gyno during puberty (maybe not full blown but definitely had the painful lumps), but never again since i was like 14  or 15. I was really skinny at the beginning of HS and then grew in height but never really filled out until i started lifting and eating. I don't have any other medical conditions. Diet right now includes a lot of chicken, eggs, veggies, 1% Milk, Muscle Milk, Low fat cottage cheese, Walnuts, Coachs Oats, Albacore tuna, . I eat out at places like Chipolte and Noodles & Company, but i don't snack on garbage chips and processed food. I consider myself pretty knowledgable in regards to nutrition and do not feel as if that is a contributing factor.

Where do you suggest i go from here help wise? Clearly HMO's are not cutting it for issues like this.I know it is absolutely imperative that we get to the root cause but at the same time i feel like i need some exogenous test for relief. With school and everything i cannot feel this way for another few weeks while waiting in limbo.

Thanks again for your insight, i really believe this forum and your website will change my life forever.
 
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: PeakT on September 21, 2012, 04:51:05 pm
Do not worry any more about someone thinking it is all in your head.  Again, the only thing you should be able to think about at your age is females.  It should require great discipline NOT to think about it.  That's how most men are and this is a huge sign that something is wrong.  Morning erections should be common as I mentioned.  Furthermore, you should have some trouble with not getting erect in public when aroused, etc.

I don't know how to tell you to handle this with your insurance, but you must find a way to find a more knowledgeable doc.  You need someone who can give you good advise on how to handle this with regards to fertility issues as well.  I urge you to read through the threads on this forum:  many of them have been started by young guys with low testosterone and you can see how different docs handled it.

Also, notice that you are on the high end of the prolactin range.  This will only make things worse.

Did you know that you are hypogonadal by LabCorp's standards now?  And your testosterone is about half of the average for your age - actually less.   

I would definitely lay off the Muscle Milk.  I am pretty sure that that is a standard whey which will be packed with excitotoxins:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Monosodium_Glutamate_Excitoxins
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on September 22, 2012, 03:26:18 am
Ok thank you for your input, it has been very valuable to me. I will seek outside help.


Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: PeakT on September 22, 2012, 02:54:57 pm
Ok thank you for your input, it has been very valuable to me. I will seek outside help.

Let us know how it goes if you get a chance...
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: anonymous11 on September 22, 2012, 06:00:47 pm
Hey RC15, I am 33 and my T levels went from 230 to 700 to 270 and now at 72 spread throughout the last 12 months. I used Androgel the last 12 months and it worsened me. I got to the point where my head feels heavy and foggy. When your T gets that low, there is a serious problem. I finally got a second opinion from a new doc and she prescribed me 200mg Testosterone Cypionate for weekly self injections. I will tell you this, the night after I took it, I had a nightime and morning erection for the first time in a long time. Let me cut to the chase, don't waist your time with Androgel and enhancing supplements. The shot made me feel great and now I feel better running and motivated to go to the gym.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on September 23, 2012, 12:04:31 am
Thanks for sharing your story.

So heres where i am going from here:
I am going to self administer Testosterone and HCG and possibly Arimidex to my self while waiting to either 1) see Dr. Crisler in MI or 2) Convince my Doctor to work with Dr. Crisler like it says can be done on Dr. Crisler's website, so i don't have to make the trip out there.

I know it may be best to not self administer in the meantime but i Have to feel better i am dead set on doing it.

Can anybody provide with with an exact protocol to get my T level's in the 900-1000 range, and fairly stable. I am not afraid to inject 2 times a week... I know there is a lot of information regarding Self administered TRT on the web but a lot of it is very conflicting, can anybody chime in with some experience??

Thank You
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: PeakT on September 23, 2012, 12:40:53 am

I know it may be best to not self administer in the meantime but i Have to feel better i am dead set on doing it.


Keep this to yourself.  Self-administering medications isn't something I encourage as I think you can tell.  It's better to patiently find a good doc than to take the law into your own hands.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on September 23, 2012, 04:08:11 am
Yes your right, I know this.

I will update periodically on how things are going..
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: anonymous11 on September 23, 2012, 02:28:12 pm
RC15, I am not an expert in any way. All I know is the 200mg weekly injections work well. I would make sure you are in a good doctor's hands who can check your blood periodically and talk about any possible side effects. I do not think you have to change the dosage to twice a week. I asked a similar question in the forum called "Testosterone forever". Check that forum out and add your concerns.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: PeakT on September 23, 2012, 03:36:12 pm
Yes your right, I know this.

I will update periodically on how things are going..

Btw, my sympathies are with you.  I know the anxiety of low testosterone.  It's miserable and no one really understands.   You just want to solve it and you want to solve it right now.  But, if you can, try to be patient.  Here in the U.S., I don't see a good reason not to work within the system...
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: anonymous11 on September 23, 2012, 07:17:15 pm
I will never go back to the urologist that prescribed me Androgel for the week. She told me that her goal was getting me to a wopping 250 score. Makes me mad everytime I think about it. So I got that 2nd opinion and made a right decision. It might take 3,4 or 5 opinions to reach the right one but the key is what Peak T said, "use the system". When you get prescribed, you will get the real deal....The outside black market world can be contaminated with chemicals and misc. stuff to fill the bottle. Keep searching for the right doctor.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on September 23, 2012, 09:30:05 pm
Can anybody chime in on the reluctance of Doctors in general to acknowledge this as a real problem??

I mean i can understand the stigma around "steroids", but are doctors informed by the Government to do whatever possible to avoid hormone replacement??

It just makes me angry that i have basically done my endo/gp's job for them and feel that they have straight up lied to me, or are they truly this naive, i mean they did make it through medical school so you would expect the highest competance...

Also an update, i have requested that my doctor work with Dr. Crisler, the supposed leading Dr. in this area, so i should hear back tomorrow... Also i have found a mens health clinic that will consider treating me in the meantime, its up to the directors discretion and should hear back from that clinic within the next few days.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: PeakT on September 23, 2012, 10:34:23 pm
They seem to be operating on knowledge from about 15 years ago from what I can tell. 

Most of them have the fear that they may be triggering prostate cancer.  So far the studies have not born that out, but keep in mind, it's best to play it safe and lean yourself out, i.e. get your abs showing so that estrogen is minimized.  And you know me:  I think a true Low Fat Diet is the best protection against prostate cancer:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/prostate

Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: anonymous11 on September 23, 2012, 10:41:37 pm
Eating right with lots of vegis and fruits, running and weight training are crucial to feeling better. We cannot expect miracles in shots and pills. In addition, make sure you reduce all stress by working out.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on September 24, 2012, 12:42:04 am
Trust me training and Diet are on point and have been for a long time. I feel like  i am some sort of freak case. This has not come about by leading a sedentary lifestyle. Played Basketball, Football, and baseball my entire life. Have weight trained and dieted all through college and drank less alcohol than anybody at my College of 30,000 kids.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: PeakT on September 24, 2012, 02:43:42 am
Trust me training and Diet are on point and have been for a long time. I feel like  i am some sort of freak case. This has not come about by leading a sedentary lifestyle. Played Basketball, Football, and baseball my entire life. Have weight trained and dieted all through college and drank less alcohol than anybody at my College of 30,000 kids.

Understood.  Sorry to write all that then, but most guys need to hear it...
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on September 24, 2012, 04:17:14 am
No worries, your completely correct.

I have been doing a little more digging and i think Varicocele (varicose veins of the testicles) may be contributing to my Low T problem. I don't so much have the soft mass associated with Varicocele, but over the last year or so i have had the dull aches in my testicles, my right testicle hangs lower than my left and always has ( varicocele most commonly affects the left testicle), and lower back pain that really acts up when my testicles start to ache. My only doubt about the Varicocele is that the location of the vein is right in the leftish- middle of my scrotum, not really that big, and not a "worm like" growth on the side of the scrotum like most commonly reported.

I am going to get a testicular ultrasound hopefully tomorrow.

Do you know anything about this condition?
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: Simeoni on September 24, 2012, 05:47:32 am
I tought id comment since I have similiar issues.

Been diagnosed with "low normal" T levels (417-470). I also read about varicoceles affecting T levels. Did a self diannose after that, and did in fact notice a bag of worms on my left testie. I got the varicocele confirmed in the ultrasound. Veins were dialiated from 3,6mm to 4,7mm. The guy who did the exam said that he has seen worse cases, but if it bothers me I might get it treated. At the moment I have to wait and see what my urologist says about that. Im not even sure if he wants to treat it. It would seem that mos docs dont really see a connection with the varicocele and low t levels.

I have researched this condition quite a bit, and have come across with people who had their T levels increased after the surgery. Other thing is that the studies show an average increase around 150-250 ng/dl with T levels. If that is in fact true, this treatment should put a guy from 350-450, to a level that is considered normal. That being said, there always a chance that the operation wont do anything.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: werd200 on September 24, 2012, 11:10:38 am
If your free testosterone is between 100-250 Pg/ml you should be fine, same thing with your bioavailable testosterone if it lies in the 10-20 ng/dl range, those are what really count. Alas most labs never seem to test for free-testostosterone, which is stupid, because those and estradiol(E2) are what matters in finding hyponadism and androgenic decline, not neccesarily total testosterone. Just looking at my testosterone levels, one would think i'm hypogondic, however i'm not since my serum testosterone/SHBG quota is 1.5, and according to a calculator my free testosterone and bio-available should be just above average, however i still don't feel that way. This one problem with labs, they don't use the right tools to diagnose people, a simple SHBG+Albumin+serum testosterone level might give you an idea of your FAI, but not your free testosterone levels, which is what they should be looking at when evaluating these cases.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: PeakT on September 24, 2012, 01:39:40 pm
If your free testosterone is between 100-250 Pgml you should be fine, same thing with your bioavailable testosterone is 10-20 ng/dl, those are what really count. Alas most labs never seem to test for free-testostosterone, which is stupid, because those and estradiol(E2) are what matters in finding hyponadism and androgenic decline, not neccesarily total testosterone. Just looking at my testosterone levels, one would think i'm hypogondic, however i'm not since my serum testosterone/SHBG quota is 1.5, and according to a calculator my free testosterone and bio-available should be just above average, however i still don't feel that way. This one problem with labs, they don't use the right tools to diagnose people, a simple SHBG+Albumin+serum testosterone level might give you an idea of your FAI, but not your free testosterone levels, which is what they should be looking at when evaluating these cases.

Great posts werd.  I don't have much to add except to point out something that some guys reading this may not realize:  the body seems to really respond to the free testosterone-to-free estrogen ratio as this is what will actually shut down testosterone signaling (due usually to being significantly overweight).  I have not been able to verify/deny, though, that this is the primary signaling mechanism used though, but it definitely seems to play a role when it gets low enough.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: spiderman on September 24, 2012, 06:04:50 pm
Hi RC15...just thought I would add a couple of things before you jump on the HRT route...

Have you had your thyroid checked?

I have a small varicocele but that was not what triggered my low T symptoms...check my posts

I had a cold lifeless buddy at one stage because I think bloodflow and nerves were partially affected in my case.

Perhaps my T levels were quite low anyway due to lifestyle (although I train a lot) but feel they dropped like a stone due to the lack of sleep and anxiety and stress that was immediately created. I literally lost my hornyness overnight and was put in a hopeless situation.
I cant state how depressed I was, only then I got checked for T levels which came in about 370.

Even if I am at least twice your age and a few years, I feel my T levels should never have been that low and were dragged down due to my mind and body at the time.The anxiety and stress literally strip your T levels in the blink of an eye.

Now I have not been a lifestyle saint since those days but I have fought, reduced my sugar, changed my diet and have  taken various combos of vits ,supps and herbs...your body is also an amazing healer if you can get your head to switch off all the negative stuff (so hard when its all you wake up to every day!)

I now have my warm buddy back, I feel 95% healed and as hard as ever!..IMO my levels have been boosted enough purely on recommendations on the site and with experimenting myself with separate items to see what works.

Ok your levels are low for your age but don't write off trying all you can on the natural route first. All the NO boosters are a great start. L Citrulline, Arginine and Pycogenol are all fantastic to heat you up!!

I think at your age your body will respond even quicker.... Don't immediately think that going on HRT will solve all.

Just my 2 cents...good luck 
 
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on October 17, 2012, 04:39:57 am
Quick Update:

Testicular MRI came back, and everything was fine. Have yet to get a pituitary MRI but will be soon, and still trying to get at the root cause of my low T.

I have started a Test+HCG TRT protocol and it will be two weeks tomorrow from when i started. Libido and over all wellbeing are remarkably better. I really think im on the right track with this TRT thing, I'm having these thoughts that i haven't had since i was young, in a good way but its hard to explain. The only symptom that i haven't noticed any improvement at all is fatigue. So I'm currently waiting for my 24 hour saliva kit to get here so i can check out the adrenals.

Also i know TRT is not just an overnight fix and the best is yet to come

Some recent tests of relevance:
Igf - 1  250 ng/ml (83-344)
Estradiol 11.9 pg/ml (7.6-42.6)
Prolactin 11.9ng/ml

Current concerns that i think need to be addressed are the high prolactin value, chronic Low body temperature, always sweating from underarms and possible adrenal fatigue/insufficiency.

Here are my body temp readings taken from doctor visits. They are alarmingly low, and i guess my doctor never picked up on it. Idk if these temps could be from thyroid (latest TSH of 1.99, I managed to get a therapeutic trial of Armour Thyroid 1/2 grain to see if this helps, who knows I'm guessing the dosage is too low but currently on week 3). Im thinking these temps and persistent sweating could also be from adrenal fatigue which like i said i will be getting checked soon.

   Date                   Time       Temp  (F)
09/17/21012      11: 40 AM          95.2
06/11/2012      11: 20 AM            95.0
07/14/2011       2: 20 PM         95.5
07/12/2011       9: 30 AM         95.1
05/03/2010       2: 00 PM         95.5

Let me know what you guys think....
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: PeakT on October 17, 2012, 06:14:46 am
Okay, now you are getting somewhere.  Your estradiol, prolactin and TSH are all suspect.  It sounds like your doc is on top of things, so that's great.

Can't remember if I've given you this link?

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Do_Men_Need_Estrogen
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on October 17, 2012, 06:24:47 am
Do you think the Estradiol is too high? i was under the impression that my number was actually pretty decent.

What do you suggest for lowering prolactin? mine is high and i have had a long refractory period so that makes sense.
- the natural way... being high doses of B6 or does it require Rx drugs To lower?

Also i will check out that article.. Also do you have any input pertaining to adrenals?
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on October 17, 2012, 06:28:26 am
Also Im not trying to bragg but my doc is not responsible for any of this. I had to twist his arm to prescribe me Armour Thyroid, he of course insisted on syntheroid, and didn't even think my TSH was at all high. I really think He only did it because he knows i Have low Test but refuses to treat that.

As for the low T issue i am currently being treated by a Mens health clinic, while i am waiting to see the top Urologist in my state so that should be promising.
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: PeakT on October 17, 2012, 06:52:02 am
Check out the link I sent.  I think it could be too low, which can lead to many issues including potentiallyh osteopenia. 

Check out this link:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2010/may2010_Why-Estrogen-Balance-is-Critical-to-Aging-Men_01.htm

"The lowest estradiol group that suffered a 317% increased death rate had serum estradiol levels under 12.90 pg/mL."

You are very close to that.  You need a smart doc with some good experience who can help you with all of this...

With E2, you don't want to be too high or too low. 
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on October 17, 2012, 06:56:24 am
Ya i read that article and realized you were suggesting that it was too low. i will look into this aswell.

Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: PeakT on October 17, 2012, 04:22:07 pm
Ya i read that article and realized you were suggesting that it was too low. i will look into this aswell.

Great - let us know what you find out...
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: andylowt on October 22, 2012, 04:45:36 pm
Testosterone levels can vary considerably from individual to individual.  It is somewhat common for a young person (21 years of age) to have a low level of total testosterone reported at 310 ng/dl.  The reasons that individuals have low levels of testosterone are not clearly understood.  Basically, it has to do with the production of the testes of subnormal amounts of testosterone.  This can be a result of genetic factors, pituitary gland factors, medication interference and other interfering substances and factors.  The levels of 364, 432 are in the low range of normal.  It may not be a problem depending upon the degree of symptoms, fatigue, weakness, low libido, etc.

A trial dose of testosterone in a moderate amount may be beneficial to determine if this would be beneficial from a medical perspective.  I feel that without a trial dose and follow up blood tests to determine increased levels one cannot know for sure. 
Title: Re: 21 Years old. In need of serious advice/experience.
Post by: RC15 on October 26, 2012, 08:09:56 am
Peak T- I have finally found a good endo who is getting me straightened out with the T and E2

I addressed him with my prolactin concerns, its been tested at 11.9 , and 11.7, he didnt think it was an issue. Do you think i should further pursue this?

Are any of the non rx methods of lowering prolactin such as vitex, Vit B6, or Mucuna Pruriens actually effective?? Or are only rx drugs such as dostinex actually effective in reducing prolactin?

Also do you now anything about iodine deficiencies and how they relate to poor thyroid function and low body temps?? Is iodine deficiency really common now a days? How about supplementing with something like Iodoral?

Thanks