Peak Testosterone Forum

General Category => Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health => Topic started by: TimeZones on December 21, 2014, 09:47:32 pm

Title: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: TimeZones on December 21, 2014, 09:47:32 pm
So, I quit cialis and viagra cold turkey in early August 2014; it's now late December 2014.

ED started 5 years ago. I was on as much as 20 mg cialis every other day for about 3 years.

After quitting ED meds, I've slowly found what supplements and foods aggravate ED.

In brief, here's what I've found to help my ED:
1. Avoiding oils and fats
2. Avoiding processed foods
3. Eating a completely plant based diet with limited fatty fish sporadically (3 times per week) and ~6 egg whites per day
4. Juicing (celery, spring mix, spinach, kale, chard, beets, any/all types of vegetables)
5. Powerful antioxidants temporarily lessen ED, and then make it worse (e.g. tart cherry extract, pycnogenol)
6. Lots of water/staying hydrated
7. No processed carbohydrates

I have experimented with garlic and vitamin C, but in general, L-citrulline is the best supplement along with plenty of WALKING (2 hours per day). Cacao and ginseng are good, too.

Otherwise, I can somewhat consistently get a decent erection that requires effort/persistence to stay erect, but they fade fast. Still, I have been using daytime erection quality and nighttime erection presence as a gauge for what works and what doesn't.

Again, the BIG THINGS you want to AVOID are:
FATS (saturated, cholesterol-rich, omega 6's)
STAYING SEDENTARY
BAD DIET (anything that isn't whole foods and plant based IS POISON)

The BIG THINGS you want TO DO are:
WALK (at least an hour per day)
JUICE (beets, celery, greens, ginger, etc)
EAT HEALTHY (plant based, low/no fat, unprocessed, moderate/low carb)

I may transition to 2.5 mg of cialis per day at some point to see what happens as PeakT and many others do. But for now, I'm maintaining a decent personal sex life without meds for the first time in 5 years.

I also see a lot of people using garlic on here. You can try raw garlic, but kyolic aged garlic extract seems to be better in some ways. Cayenne pepper is good, too.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on December 22, 2014, 12:43:17 am
Hey, you da Man!  I really appreciate the post.  Yeah, I have not been able to get off of Cialis.  But your post gives me post, so thanks for the story.

You know very interesting about the exercise.  I have noticed this makes an incredible difference.  But I am going to ask a question that I am sure others are wondering:

"How in the heck do you find two hours per day to walk?"

and

"How do you make it productive or do you?"

I have my own answer to the last question, but I'd love to hear from you.  Just today I walked for an hour and 10 minutes and I usually get about 15,000 steps per day, so I'm reasonably active.  But I'd like to figure out how to do what you are doing.

Also, are you totally a raw foods guy? 

And one last thing:  sounds like we are going down very similar pathways.  The only thing is that I am still too sendentary from having two jobs requiring me to stare into a computer screen.  I am able to exercise 50-60 minutes per day day, though, rain or shine.  Maybe if I do that last step I can get off of the those bad boys. 

I am trying a temporary experiment with Korean Ginseng.  I had the same experience as you where with Pomegranate and anti-inflammatories:  they seem like might have a rebound.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: TimeZones on December 22, 2014, 03:59:53 am
Hey, you da Man!  I really appreciate the post.  Yeah, I have not been able to get off of Cialis.  But your post gives me post, so thanks for the story.

You know very interesting about the exercise.  I have noticed this makes an incredible difference.  But I am going to ask a question that I am sure others are wondering:

"How in the heck do you find two hours per day to walk?"

and

"How do you make it productive or do you?"

I have my own answer to the last question, but I'd love to hear from you.  Just today I walked for an hour and 10 minutes and I usually get about 15,000 steps per day, so I'm reasonably active.  But I'd like to figure out how to do what you are doing.

Also, are you totally a raw foods guy? 

And one last thing:  sounds like we are going down very similar pathways.  The only thing is that I am still too sendentary from having two jobs requiring me to stare into a computer screen.  I am able to exercise 50-60 minutes per day day, though, rain or shine.  Maybe if I do that last step I can get off of the those bad boys. 

I am trying a temporary experiment with Korean Ginseng.  I had the same experience as you where with Pomegranate and anti-inflammatories:  they seem like might have a rebound.

Thanks for the good words. All I can say is that while the last 4-5 months haven't been a great time, I've learned a lot about how my body reacts to foods, activities, and lifestyle changes now that I'm not under the illusion that PDE5i's (viagra, cialis, etc) will cure everything; I used to think that taking PDE5i's would -- and should -- cure ED while buttering up foods, adding olive oil to everything I ate because "it's a healthy oil," having saturated fats (e.g. cheese, animal products), etc etc then wondering why 10+ mg of cialis wouldn't work. Now, I see that my diet is more linked to my ED than anything else.

As far as walking goes, I've always been into exercise and have found a way for it one way or another. My productivity might suffer in the short term, but when I orient my day the right way, things eventually work out.

I'm not into raw foods so much as I avoid anything processed or artificial. I eat minimal sodium, no preservatives, colors, dyes, or bleached products. The only thing I eat out of a bag are frozen, pre-cooked black beans and corn.

And you know what's funny? The diet I'm on now is exactly what Jack LaLanne and Dr. Esselstyn (google "Forks Over Knives") preached/have been preaching for years. I only found out that my diet mirrored Jack's after googling the name on my juicer (it's a Jack LaLanne brand juicer). Anyhow, moderate fish, 5-6 egg whites per day, and plants with more plants and pounds more juiced vegetables is the way to go. Meat is garbage.

Anyhow, being stuck with cialis is lousy. Believe me, I know. Since I haven't been seeing anybody in the last year, I have no idea whether I'd be up for being completely unassisted.

Thanks for hosting this site, by the way. As far as I know, it's the most informative compendium of knowledge and research on ED and men's health on the internet.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on December 22, 2014, 01:20:56 pm
Well, great story TimeZones.  Look if the erections and blood pressure are in good shape, then the changes you have made are going to make a huge difference to your long term health needless to say.

One caution:  make sure you test your post-prandial blood sugar.  When you eat even a medium amount of carbs at a meal, you want to do that.  It is very unlikely with all your exercising that that is an issue, but I would just double check.  You can get the testing stuff at Walmart for dirt cheap.

And, yes, it's very interesting, but very few guys will do what you do above.  I have always found that to be the case, though, that I simply could not handle fat. 

Quick q's for you:

1.  How old are you?  (I don't think you said that.)

2.  Are you going to get an IMT or Heart Scan done?

3.  Do you consume any nuts or seeds?

And it's nice to see someone with a very similar to story to my own.  Well, I haven't got off the Cialis yet, totally, but I think you know what I mean.  A low fat, whole foods diet is what got me back into the game (coupled with HRT).
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: HouKN98 on December 22, 2014, 08:12:00 pm
And another quick question:

Since you eat 5-6 egg whites a day, do you buy ~4 dozen eggs every week?  or do you use egg substitutes?
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: TimeZones on December 22, 2014, 09:47:33 pm
Well, great story TimeZones.  Look if the erections and blood pressure are in good shape, then the changes you have made are going to make a huge difference to your long term health needless to say.

One caution:  make sure you test your post-prandial blood sugar.  When you eat even a medium amount of carbs at a meal, you want to do that.  It is very unlikely with all your exercising that that is an issue, but I would just double check.  You can get the testing stuff at Walmart for dirt cheap.

And, yes, it's very interesting, but very few guys will do what you do above.  I have always found that to be the case, though, that I simply could not handle fat. 

Quick q's for you:

1.  How old are you?  (I don't think you said that.)

2.  Are you going to get an IMT or Heart Scan done?

3.  Do you consume any nuts or seeds?

And it's nice to see someone with a very similar to story to my own.  Well, I haven't got off the Cialis yet, totally, but I think you know what I mean.  A low fat, whole foods diet is what got me back into the game (coupled with HRT).

Thanks for the info. I'll look into testing my post-prandial blood sugar soon.

Fat is definitely responsible for aggravation of ED; especially oils of all types.

About your questions, answers are as follows:
1. Age: 33
2. IMT/Heart Scan: Not planned. I will post results if I have any after an upcoming, more in depth physical.
3. Nut/Seed consumption: yes. I eat chia seeds and peanuts from time to time, but avoid other nuts that have been reported to help ED (walnuts and pistachios).

And to the other poster that asked about egg whites, I buy bags of hard boiled eggs from Trader Joes for $3/bag of 6. I avoid packaged egg white liquid after being less than impressed by 4 brands I experimented with.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: DdR on December 23, 2014, 04:04:04 pm
I also see a lot of people using garlic on here. Do not use raw garlic. Use kyolic aged garlic extract and cayenne extract with ester C if you're going to go that route.


Why?  I've only noticed a difference with real garlic.  If I eat it regularly (I don't now that I'm engaged), I would lose fat and kill any type of cold forming. 

Have you tried pomegranates yet?

You were on Cialis starting at the age of 28?  Do you mind sharing why?  It appears that you were in good shape for being a cyclist all those years. 
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: roadglide on December 23, 2014, 05:25:34 pm
I didn't know they sell eggs already boiled.  Is it the whites only?  Organic grass fed?

I was wonder why not fresh garlic either?
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: RM on December 24, 2014, 05:39:41 am
TimeZones, in what time did you feel improvements after you stopped consuming oil or even avocados or walnuts?
I always thought some oil or avocados should help with testosterone , inflammation and cardiovascular system overall.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on December 24, 2014, 07:43:54 am
TimeZones, in what time did you feel improvements after you stopped consuming oil or even avocados or walnuts?
I always thought some oil or avocados should help with testosterone , inflammation and cardiovascular system overall.

Here is the counterargument:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/803568

"Dr. Black: What about the Mediterranean diet? What do we know about that?

Dr. Vogel: That is a very hot topic right now. The PREDIMED study[3] from Barcelona included 7500 patients and showed about a 30% reduction in cardiovascular events with a Mediterranean diet. Of interest, I think they wanted to prove that it was the olive oil that was beneficial, but they got the same results whether participants consumed high amounts of olive oil or high amounts of mixed nuts. So they did not show what I think they intended to show.

We have looked at olive oil.[4] We found that olive oil may be not as bad as lard, but it does depress endothelial function, and that is because it also has high saturated fat."

Also, see this:

https://www.pritikin.com/your-health/healthy-living/eating-right/1103-whats-wrong-with-olive-oil.html#.VJpuGF4ALI
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: TimeZones on December 24, 2014, 04:23:43 pm
Just google jack lalanne's diet, dr esselstyn caldwell's research on circulation following fatty food intake and atherosclerosis/arterial/venous plaque removal, etc and you'll see that endothelial function is tied to low fat intake, plant based diets, and staying active.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: RM on December 24, 2014, 05:22:51 pm
PeakT, TimeZones,
I just wish I have read this earlier. Damn! This is how otherwise very healthy diet and lifestyle changes and all that discipline it requires could be ruined by one single product - olive oil. And honestly I do not even like olive oil. I just though it was supposed to help and not harm.

PeakT, thanks for the links, very convincing.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: RM on December 24, 2014, 06:02:55 pm
I only hope this does not apply to Flaxseed oil and Omega 3 oil.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on December 24, 2014, 06:51:20 pm
I only hope this does not apply to Flaxseed oil and Omega 3 oil.

Flaxseed is anti-atherosclerotic per many studies.  See this link:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Flaxseed_Benefits

And megadosing fish oil is a strategy of Dr. Davis to reverse plaque. 

So, on that side of the equation, you should be good as far as I know.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: RM on December 24, 2014, 07:16:46 pm
PeakT, y the first thing i just fournd in google is this.
A new study was recently published showing that 3g/d of fish oil in patients with metabolic syndrome increased LDL levels and insulin resistance. :o
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20694407
Why is everything so contraictory when it comes to science?
Quote

Metabolic syndrome (MS) is a cluster of factors which favors the development of cardiovascular diseases. Previous studies have shown that polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) can improve some of these factors. This study aimed to evaluate the effect of fish oil on glucose and lipid profiles, oxidative stress and total antioxidant capacity (TRAP) in patients with MS.
SUBJECTS AND METHODS:

We conducted a clinical trial in 40 patients with the MS (20 controls and 20 patients receiving 3 g/day of PUFAs).
SUBJECTS AND RESULTS:


The group that received treatment showed a significant decrease in levels of triglycerides and increased in TRAP, but they had a significant increase in LDL, glucose and insulin resistance.
CONCLUSION:

We conclude that intake of fish oil resulted in decreased levels of triglycerides and increased the TRAP of patients with MS; however, increased LDL levels and insulin resistance, were observed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8911273

  Once read an article saying that  Fish oil is highly vulnerable to oxidative damage and should be accompanied by taking antioxidants.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: Tfan on December 24, 2014, 08:31:11 pm
PeakT, y the first thing i just fournd in google is this.
A new study was recently published showing that 3g/d of fish oil in patients with metabolic syndrome increased LDL levels and insulin resistance. :o
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20694407
Why is everything so contraictory when it comes to science?
Quote

Metabolic syndrome (MS) is a cluster of factors which favors the development of cardiovascular diseases. Previous studies have shown that polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) can improve some of these factors. This study aimed to evaluate the effect of fish oil on glucose and lipid profiles, oxidative stress and total antioxidant capacity (TRAP) in patients with MS.
SUBJECTS AND METHODS:

We conducted a clinical trial in 40 patients with the MS (20 controls and 20 patients receiving 3 g/day of PUFAs).
SUBJECTS AND RESULTS:


The group that received treatment showed a significant decrease in levels of triglycerides and increased in TRAP, but they had a significant increase in LDL, glucose and insulin resistance.
CONCLUSION:

We conclude that intake of fish oil resulted in decreased levels of triglycerides and increased the TRAP of patients with MS; however, increased LDL levels and insulin resistance, were observed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8911273

  Once read an article saying that  Fish oil is highly vulnerable to oxidative damage and should be accompanied by taking antioxidants.

... and it is a 2010 study!!! Wonder what is in it and how they did it. My experience trying to reproduce HDL increase and LDL decrease using protocols in studies is dismal. I OFTEN get opposite results and my learning is nothing different from what we ve experienced a number of times here on this forum... what may work for a group of men may not work for others. It is such a complex system of variables.

Fish oil is well known for increasing HDL and some men respond extremely well to it for this purpose. Just recently we learned Clarence Bass increasing his HDL to an amaing 86 level and he attributes it to his increase in fish intake. He does not say anything about his LDL though.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on December 24, 2014, 09:25:15 pm
It is complex and HDL is particularly complex.  It turns out that you can increase HDL but it can become "dysfunctional" and pro-oxidant and it does not transport like it is supposed to, etc. 

Dr. Gould has a fantastic discussion of it in the back of him book Heal Your Heart based on his clinical experience with regressing plaque.  Highly recommend reading that section - it answered a lot of questions for me.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: RM on December 28, 2014, 08:27:49 pm
 PeakT, do you have any information that avocados also negatively affect arterial plaque?
 After I read the thread I excluded any oil completely from my diet. But I haven't found any info on  negative effects of avocados yet.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on December 28, 2014, 09:01:39 pm
PeakT, do you have any information that avocados also negatively effect arterial plaque?
 After I read the thread I excluded any oil completely from my diet. But I haven't found any info on  negative effects of avocados yet.

Avacado oil has a similar profile to olive oil and so comments on olive oil probably apply.

Now I want to emphasize that, if you want some fat in your diet, the key thing to focus on is your numbers and then some sort of monitoring system to make sure it's working.  In other words, Dr. Davis would allow some olive oil and avocado oil in his plan but the key thing is that you are monitoring HDL, LDL, triglycerides, Lp(a), VLDL and the other key markers outlined in his book and others.  It's all about chemistry, eh?
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: brokenHeart on February 16, 2015, 04:36:17 am
Hey TimeZones,
It seems you have concluded that diet & exercise did it for you. So what was the original diagnosis if any? At 33 I doubt you had organic impotence unless you had been a couch potato for years, were you? (Isn't NO deficiency considered organic) Did you pull any blood tests before and after? May it was psychogenic and the good feelings and confidence caused by exercise, etc cured it?
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: dubidoo on May 03, 2015, 10:21:10 am
5. Powerful antioxidants temporarily lessen ED, and then make it worse (e.g. tart cherry extract, pycnogenol)

Can you tell a bit more about it? For example, how long before it started making it worse?
I'm about to receive my pycnogenol, this post makes me a little bit worried.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: factor5a on May 05, 2015, 03:10:55 pm
Well, great story TimeZones.  Look if the erections and blood pressure are in good shape, then the changes you have made are going to make a huge difference to your long term health needless to say.

One caution:  make sure you test your post-prandial blood sugar.  When you eat even a medium amount of carbs at a meal, you want to do that.  It is very unlikely with all your exercising that that is an issue, but I would just double check.  You can get the testing stuff at Walmart for dirt cheap.

And, yes, it's very interesting, but very few guys will do what you do above.  I have always found that to be the case, though, that I simply could not handle fat. 

Quick q's for you:

1.  How old are you?  (I don't think you said that.)

2.  Are you going to get an IMT or Heart Scan done?

3.  Do you consume any nuts or seeds?

And it's nice to see someone with a very similar to story to my own.  Well, I haven't got off the Cialis yet, totally, but I think you know what I mean.  A low fat, whole foods diet is what got me back into the game (coupled with HRT).

Peak,

Do you really think you can get off Cialis ?

I mean, Timezones is 20 years younger than you,that is a huge difference. I agree that diet and exercise can make a great difference but I don't think will do miracles and more if you are already on a high NO and low fat diet.

Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on May 05, 2015, 04:37:13 pm

Peak,

Do you really think you can get off Cialis ?

I mean, Timezones is 20 years younger than you,that is a huge difference. I agree that diet and exercise can make a great difference but I don't think will do miracles and more if you are already on a high NO and low fat diet.

I don't know.  However, I suspect that I have become dependent on them.  To be honest, I would need my wife to go on a vacation for about a month for me to try it out.  I would need to go off cold turkey I believe and let the enzyme activity reset.  It would be an ugly month, but would be worth the try.  In the meantime, I am stuck on them as after about five or six days, morning erections greatly diminish, etc.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: factor5a on May 05, 2015, 04:57:25 pm

Peak,

Do you really think you can get off Cialis ?

I mean, Timezones is 20 years younger than you,that is a huge difference. I agree that diet and exercise can make a great difference but I don't think will do miracles and more if you are already on a high NO and low fat diet.

I don't know.  However, I suspect that I have become dependent on them.  To be honest, I would need my wife to go on a vacation for about a month for me to try it out.  I would need to go off cold turkey I believe and let the enzyme activity reset.  It would be an ugly month, but would be worth the try.  In the meantime, I am stuck on them as after about five or six days, morning erections greatly diminish, etc.

 :D
You scared me at the begining of your parragraph, when you said about your wife !! But then I understood and made me remember a joke. I wish they are not prohibited in this forum. Anyway I'll take a chance.

This guy went to the doctor and told him he was having erection problems ,so the doctor told him , "no problem, take this blue pill half an our before you have sex and you will be ok "
The guy left and the doctor never saw him again until they ran across in the street one day,so the doctor ask him " Hey I never saw you again, did you try the pill I gave you that day?" the patient said " No, I didn't because my wife went out that day and he left me alone in the house with the girl we have that help us with the cleaning of the house."  the doctor said " And why didn't you try the pill with this girl ?"  Patient said, "No, with her I don't need the pill "  ;D


Anyway, I don't think you will have a problem with that daily dose, and you know what ? We need to live life, I prefer to die 10 years earlier but after enyoing the pleasures of life than trying to live "healthy" always. I hope I'm  clear.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on May 05, 2015, 05:44:59 pm

Peak,

Do you really think you can get off Cialis ?

I mean, Timezones is 20 years younger than you,that is a huge difference. I agree that diet and exercise can make a great difference but I don't think will do miracles and more if you are already on a high NO and low fat diet.

I don't know.  However, I suspect that I have become dependent on them.  To be honest, I would need my wife to go on a vacation for about a month for me to try it out.  I would need to go off cold turkey I believe and let the enzyme activity reset.  It would be an ugly month, but would be worth the try.  In the meantime, I am stuck on them as after about five or six days, morning erections greatly diminish, etc.

 :D
You scared me at the begining of your parragraph, when you said about your wife !! But then I understood and made me remember a joke. I wish they are not prohibited in this forum. Anyway I'll take a chance.

This guy went to the doctor and told him he was having erection problems ,so the doctor told him , "no problem, take this blue pill half an our before you have sex and you will be ok "
The guy left and the doctor never saw him again until they ran across in the street one day,so the doctor ask him " Hey I never saw you again, did you try the pill I gave you that day?" the patient said " No, I didn't because my wife went out that day and he left me alone in the house with the girl we have that help us with the cleaning of the house."  the doctor said " And why didn't you try the pill with this girl ?"  Patient said, "No, with her I don't need the pill "  ;D


Anyway, I don't think you will have a problem with that daily dose, and you know what ? We need to live life, I prefer to die 10 years earlier but after enyoing the pleasures of life than trying to live "healthy" always. I hope I'm  clear.

Lol.  Pretty funny there guy!

Yeah and a perfect example of that is caloric restriction.  Yeah, it might add 10 years to your life, but I don't think it's worth it...
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: factor5a on May 05, 2015, 10:44:54 pm
 ;D
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: rainydays on May 07, 2015, 05:22:59 pm
Amazing how diversely different we all are.

I am just the opposite. I NEED healthy fats, or my drive and erections plummet to hell. I also need a few carbs for basic sanity.

But I have a mate that's just like you. Fats destroy him. Make him super pudgy and kill everything positive about him. He has to eat like a rabbit - everything in the garden - just to stay tip top.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on May 07, 2015, 06:12:43 pm
Amazing how diversely different we all are.

I am just the opposite. I NEED healthy fats, or my drive and erections plummet to hell. I also need a few carbs for basic sanity.

But I have a mate that's just like you. Fats destroy him. Make him super pudgy and kill everything positive about him. He has to eat like a rabbit - everything in the garden - just to stay tip top.

Well, wait, everyone needs fats.  I don't think any expert disagrees with that.  It's just how much fat we need.  For example, I consume 3-4 grams or even more of saturated fat per day.  And, as you know, I eat a lot of omega-3's.  Just want to clarify that.

But, yes, you're right:  I don't do well, for example, with several grams of saturated fat in one meal.  I try to keep saturated fat less than a gram per meal or snack.

Like I always say:  I don't really care how you eat as long as you are meeting your cardiovascular numbers and not increasing plaque.  Some guys can eat more fat and still have good LDL-P and apoB numbers for example.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: rainydays on May 08, 2015, 04:56:46 am
10-4. I should have clarified 'a lot of'. :)

Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: TimeZones on May 14, 2015, 02:35:46 am
5. Powerful antioxidants temporarily lessen ED, and then make it worse (e.g. tart cherry extract, pycnogenol)

Can you tell a bit more about it? For example, how long before it started making it worse?
I'm about to receive my pycnogenol, this post makes me a little bit worried.

I'm working on a master's thesis related to a receptor I believe plays a role in ED, and from my research, oxidation of receptor subunits affect its function; so, too many anti-oxidants may alter normal functions.

I wouldn't want to speculate any further than that as I don't know enough receptor function versus chemistry to speak definitively, but I am in the process of investigating it and will reply when I know more.

If you're curious, oxidation causes calcium leak from this receptor, and calcium causes smooth muscle contraction and therefore no relaxation, so this would explain how oxidants/anti-oxidants play a role in ED development. I'm not sure where else anti-oxidants would exert their effects on the erectile function pathway/spectrum, but it would be worth researching things like "phosphodiesterase oxidation" to find out.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: TimeZones on May 14, 2015, 02:39:02 am
I've been tweaking my diet lately, too. A thing that helps me are having 1 can of wild caught salmon per day (from a BPA free can) and some other fats (coconut).

My diet is still heavily plant-based, but doing the above has helped out. I still think that a lot of fats are bad news, but I've been upping my fat intake to 20-30 grams per day without any serious ED problems.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: Tfan on May 14, 2015, 12:59:37 pm
I've been tweaking my diet lately, too. A thing that helps me are having 1 can of wild caught salmon per day (from a BPA free can) and some other fats (coconut).

My diet is still heavily plant-based, but doing the above has helped out. I still think that a lot of fats are bad news, but I've been upping my fat intake to 20-30 grams per day without any serious ED problems.

can you tell us how old you are and if your averge line bp?
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on May 14, 2015, 02:59:40 pm
I've been tweaking my diet lately, too. A thing that helps me are having 1 can of wild caught salmon per day (from a BPA free can) and some other fats (coconut).

My diet is still heavily plant-based, but doing the above has helped out. I still think that a lot of fats are bad news, but I've been upping my fat intake to 20-30 grams per day without any serious ED problems.

Hope all is going well for you!

20-30 total per day?  yeah, you wouldn't want to go below that.  You've got to make sure your bile drops, fat soluble vitamins and omega-3's are absorbed, etc.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: rainydays on May 15, 2015, 08:23:37 am
That is incredibly low, to me anyway.

Basic bodily functions and hormones rely on healthy fat intake. Fat that low will annihilate natural testosterone production.

For comparison a 5ft female, on a competition fitness/modelling diet, will take in 35-40g.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on May 15, 2015, 05:16:48 pm
That is incredibly low, to me anyway.

Basic bodily functions and hormones rely on healthy fat intake. Fat that low will annihilate natural testosterone production.

For comparison a 5ft female, on a competition fitness/modelling diet, will take in 35-40g.

First of all, let's say a man is on 2,500 calories per day and wants to go 10-15% fat.  Now some low fat folks are 15-20% (such as the Prikitin Edge advocates).  But let's say you're on the lower side and 10-15% fat.  In that case that guy would consume between 250-375 calories of fat per day which is 28-41 grams of fat if you do the math.

So the poster is actually spot on unless his caloric requirements are greater due to being young or an endurance athlete, etc.

Now let's go back to your assertion that low fat lowers testosterone dramatically.  The only study that I know of that looked at it found the following:

1.  Testosterone remained unchanged.

2.  Estradiol halved.

3.  The T/E2 ratio doubled.

You can see the study here:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Estrogen_Ratio

Furthermore, many of the healthiest cultures in the world consume fat levels in the 10-25% range and it is very hard to believe imo that they are low testosterone. 

So, as I always say, measure yourself before and after.  We're all different and so low fat may lower T in some guys - I certainly can't say for sure (especially if is poorly done).  But I see little evidence what you are saying here and, in fact, you may do a nice job of boosting your T/E2 ratio to a more health level.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: rainydays on May 17, 2015, 07:15:01 am
I thought you may link that one, as I have read it in the past  ;) Good read.

But as the diet and link suggests, as the fat content is dramatically lowered, complex carbohydrates are dramatically increased for that sustainability, which balances the macro-nutrient scale. And is, of course, completely acceptable.

I took Timezones' post to read, an entirely plant-based diet with no carbs and barely any fat. A recipe for disaster IMO, unless exogenous testosterone is being supplemented.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on May 17, 2015, 05:46:33 pm
I thought you may link that one, as I have read it in the past  ;) Good read.

But as the diet and link suggests, as the fat content is dramatically lowered, complex carbohydrates are dramatically increased for that sustainability, which balances the macro-nutrient scale. And is, of course, completely acceptable.

I took Timezones' post to read, an entirely plant-based diet with no carbs and barely any fat. A recipe for disaster IMO, unless exogenous testosterone is being supplemented.

This  is one of those very understudied areas.  There are concerns with low fat diets - I have a page covering them - and some of the issues have not really been looked at extensively.  Some day maybe ...
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: FredrickJ on May 18, 2015, 03:01:27 am
TimeZone
Congrats man I've  been in your shoes man. One thing to add cayenne pepper (1 TBSP> per day)  This does magic for me. I just posted a similar story to yours this morning under Fredrick J.. Keep rockin' man!!
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: TimeZones on May 18, 2015, 03:17:31 am
TimeZone
Congrats man I've  been in your shoes man. One thing to add cayenne pepper (1 TBSP> per day)  This does magic for me. I just posted a similar story to yours this morning under Fredrick J.. Keep rockin' man!!

Thanks for the good words.

Cayenne seems like good stuff. I just took my third pill of cayenne pepper today with dinner; I suppose this dosing regiment would equate to about a 1/2 tablespoon per day. Cayenne really cuts down on stomach bloating, too. I want to experiment more with cayenne.

I've been tweaking my diet lately, too. A thing that helps me are having 1 can of wild caught salmon per day (from a BPA free can) and some other fats (coconut).

My diet is still heavily plant-based, but doing the above has helped out. I still think that a lot of fats are bad news, but I've been upping my fat intake to 20-30 grams per day without any serious ED problems.

Hope all is going well for you!

20-30 total per day?  yeah, you wouldn't want to go below that.  You've got to make sure your bile drops, fat soluble vitamins and omega-3's are absorbed, etc.

Thank you for the good words too, PeakT. Things have been going well. I didn't end up getting into the program I thought I would, by the way. But, I may have gotten in somewhere better due to some things I'll send via pm/email when I know definitively.

I hope that things have been going well for you, too.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on May 18, 2015, 05:18:29 am

Thank you for the good words too, PeakT. Things have been going well. I didn't end up getting into the program I thought I would, by the way. But, I may have gotten in somewhere better due to some things I'll send via pm/email when I know definitively.

I hope that things have been going well for you, too.

Gotcha.  Well, sorry to hear about that, but I know things will work out for you.  Yes, please keep me informed...
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: TimeZones on June 03, 2015, 01:11:26 am
So, about powerful anti-oxidants aggravating ED; nitric oxide is a free radical, and as a free radical, is an oxidant. That means nitric oxide's free electron can be donated to anti-oxidants, thereby preventing NO from activating its effectors to cause smooth muscle relaxation.

"Based on the results, we have suggested that the primary chemical process of the antioxidant reaction with NO can be characterised with the electron transfer from NO to the antioxidant" (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814611007254).

Mechanism of NO's modulation of smooth muscle:
NO acts through the stimulation of the soluble guanylate cyclase, which is a heterodimeric enzyme with subsequent formation of cyclic-GMP. Cyclic-GMP activates protein kinase G, which causes reuptake of Ca2+ and the opening of calcium-activated potassium channels. The fall in concentration of Ca2+ ensures that the myosin light-chain kinase (MLCK) can no longer phosphorylate the myosin molecule, thereby stopping the crossbridge cycle and leading to relaxation of the smooth muscle cell (Wikipedia).

This post is a review of nitric oxide vs anti-oxidants that is a work in progress; I'll be editing this post as I develop more info.
Title: Re: How I Got Off of the PDE5 Inhibitors
Post by: PeakT on June 03, 2015, 04:37:18 am
So, about powerful anti-oxidants aggravating ED; nitric oxide is a free radical, and as a free radical, is an oxidant. That means nitric oxide's free electron can be donated to anti-oxidants, thereby preventing NO from activating its effectors to cause smooth muscle relaxation.

"Based on the results, we have suggested that the primary chemical process of the antioxidant reaction with NO can be characterised with the electron transfer from NO to the antioxidant" (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814611007254).

This post is a review of nitric oxide vs anti-oxidants that is a work in progress; I'll be editing this post as I develop more info.

So am I reading that right?  First of all, soy boost nitric oxide a little.  And then the genistein scavenges after itself more powerfully than glutathione?  Isn't that ideal?