Peak Testosterone Forum

General Category => Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health => Topic started by: Kierkegaard on January 11, 2015, 11:47:49 pm

Title: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: Kierkegaard on January 11, 2015, 11:47:49 pm
Dr. Mark Gordon is one of the heavyweights in TRT; he's a good friend of Dr. Crisler, and also the guy who invented the phrase "interventional endocrinology" to replace "antiaging medicine".  Turns out both of these guys are moving against the standard 100 mg per week injections.  Gordon said he averages about 60-80 mg per week, usually in divided doses, for his patients to reach good levels, and he doesn't use an AI for this reason (although he does use up to 160 mg per day of Zinc balanced with copper as an alternative to arimidex when needed), also because of health concerns with arimidex.  The following is a quote from Gordon (taken from another forum because the original link to this quote is broken):

Quote
First off why would anyone need an estrogen blocker? Not rhetorical but, I can't hear your answer. So here is my take on this whole issue of testosterone replacement . If you replace or supplement the body with the amount of testosterone that it makes you don't run into needing estrogen blockers EBs. A number of studies from as far back as 1963 (in my collection) show that healthy solid males between the age of 25-35 produce from 4.1-10mg of T a day. That is about 60mg a week (median). So why would you need more?

I believe that the medical world has relied on the bodybuilding world for directions in how to abuse our bodies with super physiological doses of T. In 15 years with over 10,000 patient cycles (3 months) I've never used EBs to recover from E2 overload in a male. Also, Zinc blocks conversion of T to E2 by competitive inhibition of magnesium at the estradiol synthetase enzyme that we call Aromatase. So if you perform comprehensive assessments of your patients before starting hormones then add the Zn.

More than 80% of my population use 60-40mg [typo?  80 mg?] of T a week. I have some very physically active males...who use 40mg twice a week. A rare 100mg a week. I am in shock at the number of traditional physicians that start a patient on 200-300mg a week and automatically use an EB. I am even more perplexed over those of us who trained in interventional endocrinology and use excessive amounts. If we are to promote ourselves as safe alternatives to traditional medicine should we not provide that to our patients? All the best. M L Gordon. Watch for my new Medical Tidbits coming exclusively to the Anti-Aging Space.

All this is both interesting and perplexing.  I don't know if Dr. Gordon does subcutaneous injections, but since I've started them I've noticed my levels get too high (with T and E2) on two different occasions, even though I was only injecting around 77 mg per week.  So it's looking like, at least since going subq, Dr. Gordon's advice is likely spot on for me -- I've been injecting too much all along, causing my estrogen to get too high, and should be aiming for 60 mg a week (which is what I'm trying now, third time's a charm).  It's also perplexing in that there are plenty of guys whose bloodwork shows that 100 mg or less per week clearly isn't enough.  Dr. Gordon (and Crisler) also believe in supplementing pregnenolone and other hormones preceding testosterone.

On a related note, it's interesting how all the studies on subcutaneous injections use 50-60 mg per week, such as the following:

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/lgbt.2014.0018?journalCode=lgbt (average 46.4 mg per week for average T level of 521 ng/dl)

https://endo.confex.com/endo/2013endo/webprogram/Paper9064.html (50-60 mg per week for average T level of 608 ng/dl)

Maybe we're all injecting too much?
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: VinnAY on January 11, 2015, 11:59:55 pm
Injecting only what you need to survive, which is some poetic license but that's how I read it, I think, is rather short-sighted. I am though, totally in the camp for less to no Anastrozole and that it shouldn't be viewed as a necessity to any TRT protocol. I for one am on what most would call the upper limit of weekly TRT but I'm also a gym rat and enjoy being >1k TT, with my Dr's concurrence. I would not however, go above this dosing. I'm much more concerned now with E2 management after having been too low and caught up in this "must take 1mg Anastrozole per week" that seems standard.
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: PeakT on January 12, 2015, 12:28:05 am
You have to watch your hematocrit and hemoglobin if you go on the high side witb trt.  Try his is a decades long thing and it could predispose one to stroke, etc.
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: VinnAY on January 12, 2015, 01:29:29 am
Even the Doc's that don't know what they're doing on Test replacement they at least run CBC which gives you the RBC, Hematocrit, etc
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: Regulus on January 12, 2015, 12:36:10 pm
Hold the phone.

I'm not 100% clear on the math here. 

100 mg of testosterone CYPIONATE… Is that really the same as 100 mg of testosterone?

My understanding (which may be completely incorrect) is that the ester is approximately 30% of test cyp.

So assuming this figure is correct, 100 mg of test cyp equates to 70 mg of testosterone.  Which would put the standard 100 mg dose pretty much right in line with the median natural production.
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: PeakT on January 12, 2015, 04:13:29 pm
I've scaled it down to 80 mg per week to see how I feel.  In my case, I'm worried I may go a little low with estradiol.  So we'll see...
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: Kierkegaard on January 12, 2015, 07:38:57 pm
Hold the phone.

I'm not 100% clear on the math here. 

100 mg of testosterone CYPIONATE… Is that really the same as 100 mg of testosterone?

My understanding (which may be completely incorrect) is that the ester is approximately 30% of test cyp.

So assuming this figure is correct, 100 mg of test cyp equates to 70 mg of testosterone.  Which would put the standard 100 mg dose pretty much right in line with the median natural production.

I've heard the same.  Unfortunately, I don't know for sure if Gordon is referring to testosterone injectibles or the 70% number you mention.  My guess is it's the former.  And 70 mg is at the top end of the range if guys max 10 mg a day.  The sticky with E2 stuff has a figure by Nelson Vergel and it has even lower ranges for natural testosterone production. 
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: Kierkegaard on January 12, 2015, 08:07:00 pm
I'm in a tricky situation since going subq.  I was feeling the best I've ever felt in my life while going literally 30mg E4D IM, but this lasted about two weeks before my numbers got a little low and I started feeling fatigued.  After this I got the okay from my doc to go subq, and started feeling very good but not quite the 100% I experienced at the end of my IM journey.  My guess is that I was injecting 10-20% too much subq at the time.  Another confound is that I ended up going too high with my numbers and started over with 33 mg E3D instead of 35 mg E3D, and again I gradually went too high, which is a little confusing: either my levels added up regardless of the 2 mg difference (because I was on 33 mg longer than 35 mg before I started having problems), or the few pounds I added have influenced my E2 conversion slightly, explaining the 2 mg difference.  Now I'm saying fuck it and injecting 24 mg E3D and sticking with it. Judging from my previous numbers, this should be put me at around 700 ng/dl total T, but we'll see. 
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: PeakT on January 12, 2015, 09:30:03 pm
I'm in a tricky situation since going subq.  I was feeling the best I've ever felt in my life while going literally 30mg E4D IM, but this lasted about two weeks before my numbers got a little low and I started feeling fatigued.  After this I got the okay from my doc to go subq, and started feeling very good but not quite the 100% I experienced at the end of my IM journey.  My guess is that I was injecting 10-20% too much subq at the time.  Another confound is that I ended up going too high with my numbers and started over with 33 mg E3D instead of 35 mg E3D, and again I gradually went too high, which is a little confusing: either my levels added up regardless of the 2 mg difference (because I was on 33 mg longer than 35 mg before I started having problems), or the few pounds I added have influenced my E2 conversion slightly, explaining the 2 mg difference.  Now I'm saying fuck it and injecting 24 mg E3D and sticking with it. Judging from my previous numbers, this should be put me at around 700 ng/dl total T, but we'll see.

Wow.  You win the award for lowest dosing I think...
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: euphorixx1 on January 13, 2015, 12:26:18 am
I would still love to know why when I was going subQ, i could get T levels of 615 and have E2 levels of 30+, but using the same dose(with HCG) intra muscular, my E2 never gets above 22... any thoughts on that?
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: Kierkegaard on January 13, 2015, 12:33:13 am
I would still love to know why when I was going subQ, i could get T levels of 615 and have E2 levels of 30+, but using the same dose(with HCG) intra muscular, my E2 never gets above 22... any thoughts on that?

What were your T levels on the same dose HCG?
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: euphorixx1 on January 13, 2015, 12:50:42 am
I would still love to know why when I was going subQ, i could get T levels of 615 and have E2 levels of 30+, but using the same dose(with HCG) intra muscular, my E2 never gets above 22... any thoughts on that?

What were your T levels on the same dose HCG?

When I switched to 120mg a week IM my T was 922, and E2 was 22.  When I switched to 60mge3.5d with 250HCG mixed in the same syringe, my T was about 850 and sensitive E2 was 15.
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: euphorixx1 on January 13, 2015, 12:51:27 am
I dont know why, but I convert my T to E2 with subQ, and I have over 5 blood tests that verify this.  Unless I am injecting SUBQ incorrectly, I don't understand it.
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: PeakT on January 13, 2015, 01:08:07 am
I dont know why, but I convert my T to E2 with subQ, and I have over 5 blood tests that verify this.  Unless I am injecting SUBQ incorrectly, I don't understand it.
You mean that you get more, proportionately, E2 when using subQ, right?

Well, the old concern was that injecting into fat where the aromatase is would lead to overly high estradiol levels.  That's not supposed to be an issue, but who knows?  Maybe with some guys this is an issue.
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: euphorixx1 on January 13, 2015, 01:12:15 am
Maybe so.
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: factor5a on January 13, 2015, 01:29:17 am
I'm on around 62 mgs of sustenon once a week and look my numbers. More than 100 I think is to much.

Even with this low dose I have problems with my hemoglobin.

Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: Grad777 on January 13, 2015, 02:11:37 am
Hold the phone.

I'm not 100% clear on the math here. 

100 mg of testosterone CYPIONATE… Is that really the same as 100 mg of testosterone?

My understanding (which may be completely incorrect) is that the ester is approximately 30% of test cyp.

So assuming this figure is correct, 100 mg of test cyp equates to 70 mg of testosterone.  Which would put the standard 100 mg dose pretty much right in line with the median natural production.

You are correct
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: Okian on January 22, 2015, 02:32:06 pm
Hold the phone.

I'm not 100% clear on the math here. 

100 mg of testosterone CYPIONATE… Is that really the same as 100 mg of testosterone?

My understanding (which may be completely incorrect) is that the ester is approximately 30% of test cyp.

So assuming this figure is correct, 100 mg of test cyp equates to 70 mg of testosterone.  Which would put the standard 100 mg dose pretty much right in line with the median natural production.


'' 100mg of Cypionate yields ~ 68mg of actual testosterone. '' - http://www.defymedical.com/resources/health-articles/187-common-injectable-testosterone-esters (http://www.defymedical.com/resources/health-articles/187-common-injectable-testosterone-esters)
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: Okian on January 22, 2015, 02:36:22 pm
So what would you guys recommend to start with? (how much on first dose?)

I will be soon switch to injections, and I would like to do the 100 mg/week test cypionate protocol, 50 mg E3,5D . If am very low SHBG (6.95) - should I start lower ? 30mg ? 40mg ? Anyone with low SHBG and success on injections protocol ?
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: Kierkegaard on January 22, 2015, 03:16:59 pm
So what would you guys recommend to start with? (how much on first dose?)

I will be soon switch to injections, and I would like to do the 100 mg/week test cypionate protocol, 50 mg E3,5D . If am very low SHBG (6.95) - should I start lower ? 30mg ? 40mg ? Anyone with low SHBG and success on injections protocol ?

50mg every 3.5 days is a great starting protocol.  Just stay with that a few weeks, get retested and note your symptoms and make adjustments.  If you're low SHBG, then I'd consider subcutaneous injections, which massively drop the spike soon after injecting.  Actually, with SHBG that low, I'd consider injecting every other day (EOD) at whatever would equate to 100 mg per week for that injection day. 
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: VinnAY on January 22, 2015, 03:40:38 pm
So what would you guys recommend to start with? (how much on first dose?)

I will be soon switch to injections, and I would like to do the 100 mg/week test cypionate protocol, 50 mg E3,5D . If am very low SHBG (6.95) - should I start lower ? 30mg ? 40mg ? Anyone with low SHBG and success on injections protocol ?

50mg every 3.5 days is a great starting protocol.  Just stay with that a few weeks, get retested and note your symptoms and make adjustments.  If you're low SHBG, then I'd consider subcutaneous injections, which massively drop the spike soon after injecting.  Actually, with SHBG that low, I'd consider injecting every other day (EOD) at whatever would equate to 100 mg per week for that injection day.

I concure, that's very low SHBG and may necessitate EOD.
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: PeakT on January 22, 2015, 04:50:04 pm
I'm on around 62 mgs of sustenon once a week and look my numbers. More than 100 I think is to much.

Even with this low dose I have problems with my hemoglobin.

Do  you have trouble even if you donate blood?  If so, you don't want to push the hemoglobin limit imo - dangerous. 

Any chance you are hyperthyroid?  It can bump up RBC's a bit:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Ways_To_Lower_Hemoglobin

If you're eating a lot of red meat, that can bump up the number a bit.  The research isn't really conclusive though - see above.  Makes sense that eating a bunch of heme iron probably won't help matters though.
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: factor5a on January 22, 2015, 08:05:25 pm
I'm on around 62 mgs of sustenon once a week and look my numbers. More than 100 I think is to much.

Even with this low dose I have problems with my hemoglobin.

Do  you have trouble even if you donate blood?  If so, you don't want to push the hemoglobin limit imo - dangerous. 

Any chance you are hyperthyroid?  It can bump up RBC's a bit:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Ways_To_Lower_Hemoglobin

If you're eating a lot of red meat, that can bump up the number a bit.  The research isn't really conclusive though - see above.  Makes sense that eating a bunch of heme iron probably won't help matters though.



No Peak, I don't eat a lot of red meat. I eat once a week. If I donate blood obviously my numbers come down, but for me be below 17.5 I have to take out blood every two months. My number without HRT is around 16.8, also I live in Mexico city and we are around 7000 feet above sea level. That counts also.
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: PeakT on January 22, 2015, 10:19:23 pm

No Peak, I don't eat a lot of red meat. I eat once a week. If I donate blood obviously my numbers come down, but for me be below 17.5 I have to take out blood every two months. My number without HRT is around 16.8, also I live in Mexico city and we are around 7000 feet above sea level. That counts also.

Noted.  Everyone tells me I have to visit Mexico City btw.  Well, except for the earthquakes!
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: factor5a on January 23, 2015, 07:31:48 pm
You are welcome, amigo. ;D
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: davcir on January 23, 2015, 10:48:25 pm
Using Zinc balanced with copper may have its own pitfalls .

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=5763.msg47984#msg47984

This is interesting i remember seeing a video of Chrysler saying he " took a little extra " ( T) because he was a hyper excreter ( whatever that is  :))
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: PeakT on January 23, 2015, 10:56:53 pm
Using Zinc balanced with copper may have its own pitfalls .

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=5763.msg47984#msg47984

This is interesting i remember seeing a video of Chrysler saying he " took a little extra " ( T) because he was a hyper excreter ( whatever that is  :))

You have to super careful with copper imo.

Glad to see you back davcir!  I thought I'd scared you off...
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: JAZ0000 on July 19, 2017, 05:35:20 pm
Hey guys. I realize this is an old thread. It's extremely interesting though. My question is. Seeing test is mixed with an ester, for example 100mgs if test cyp has about 70 mgs of actual testosterone. How has the doctor calculated 40-60 mgs a week?
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: PeakT on July 19, 2017, 11:37:18 pm
Using Zinc balanced with copper may have its own pitfalls .

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=5763.msg47984#msg47984

This is interesting i remember seeing a video of Chrysler saying he " took a little extra " ( T) because he was a hyper excreter ( whatever that is  :))

It effectively means that your testosterone has a short half life.
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: Kierkegaard on July 21, 2017, 10:41:44 am
Hey guys. I realize this is an old thread. It's extremely interesting though. My question is. Seeing test is mixed with an ester, for example 100mgs if test cyp has about 70 mgs of actual testosterone. How has the doctor calculated 40-60 mgs a week?

By using the "on the label" amount, not the amount after fillers and ester has been subtracted.  Gordon is pushing to *mimic* natural testosterone levels to be close to that of the average healthy young male -- so levels around 700-800 ng/dl total T.  This is why he injects less. 
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: PeakT on July 23, 2017, 07:15:21 pm
Hey guys. I realize this is an old thread. It's extremely interesting though. My question is. Seeing test is mixed with an ester, for example 100mgs if test cyp has about 70 mgs of actual testosterone. How has the doctor calculated 40-60 mgs a week?

By using the "on the label" amount, not the amount after fillers and ester has been subtracted.  Gordon is pushing to *mimic* natural testosterone levels to be close to that of the average healthy young male -- so levels around 700-800 ng/dl total T.  This is why he injects less.

Yeah, we don't get a lot of healthy, young males posting on here  :o but, when they do, it is usually in that range.  How often have natural guys posted with testosterone > 1000 ng/dl?  Very infrequent from what I remember...
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: ChrisCanada on July 23, 2017, 07:56:07 pm
- Initially my doc had me on 100mg every 2 weeks with 3x 500iu HCG weekly.  Worked great and I started to become normal for the first time in my adult life.

- Effects faded away, but did notice my estrogen had risen to the hide side of normal.

- Stopped 100 mg and started doing 50mg. Didn't feel much better. Doc upped me to 150mg every 2 weeks .

- Felt better at 75mg a week with HCG but then was told my hematocrit was on "the high side of normal.. " (the past two draws over 6-months)

- Scaled back to 60-65mg a week without HCG and muscles got bigger but sex drive dead and tiredness.

- Restarted HCG just over a week ago. I've noticed in the past that I do not feel good on TRT without HCG.

- Will get new bloodwork tomorrow. I am afraid of high RBC which is why I scaled back.  On thing for sure, when TRT works my erections are much better and energy level is almost supernatural (well, that's how I feel and I do a lot of physical activities...")

Right now I am worried because I am feeling tired again and having erectile dysfunction.  Will be paying close attention to my estrogen levels and RBC.

I should also say for the sake of the thread, that I have had high tesosterone numbers on 50-70 mg per week. Sometimes, out of range high. So I am baffled yet intrigued by those who take much more. I am curious how they feel and wonder if that is what I need; the only other issue I can think of right now is that my E2 is not right. If not, why did it stop working as it initially did last year?
Title: Re: Injecting < 100 mg Per Week
Post by: electrify on July 24, 2017, 12:04:03 am
Even with doing like 25 mg e3d and 100 iu of HCG every other day my levels have gotten up to 700-800.