Peak Testosterone Forum

General Category => Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health => Topic started by: Zooka15 on March 23, 2015, 03:28:31 pm

Title: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Zooka15 on March 23, 2015, 03:28:31 pm
So I have been trt for a few years and have only been doing t-cyp. How many of you are using hcg or not? If you are how do you obtain?doc/over sea pharmacy. I mentioned to my doc before and he stated he knows it maintains fertility but since I had a vasectomy it was pointless. Just did not know if there was any benefit or if that question is still up in the air.

Thank
Shawn
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Hydranted on March 23, 2015, 03:42:53 pm
In my opinion, hCG should be part of every TRT protocol. 

It's benefits go beyond preservation of fertility.  HCG allows the testes to remain functional, something that is lost when using exogenous testosterone without hCG.  The testes have many roles, sperm production is only part of their job description.  The testes aid in the production of other hormones, so it's a no brainer for me to keep that going.

It will also prevent testicular atrophy/aching caused by exogenous testosterone.  Not everyone experiences the aches or discomfort, but those who do very much appreciate the job that hCG does to combat it.

I am on hCG which has been prescribed by my doctor, and I've only experienced positive effects from it.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Zooka15 on March 23, 2015, 03:46:39 pm
Was hcg given to you at start of treatment or something you had to convince

In my opinion, hCG should be part of every TRT protocol. 

It's benefits go beyond preservation of fertility.  HCG allows the testes to remain functional, something that is lost when using exogenous testosterone without hCG.  The testes have many roles, sperm production is only part of their job description.  The testes aid in the production of other hormones, so it's a no brainer for me to keep that going.

It will also prevent testicular atrophy/aching caused by exogenous testosterone.  Not everyone experiences the aches or discomfort, but those who do very much appreciate the job that hCG does to combat it.

I am on hCG which has been prescribed by my doctor, and I've only experienced positive effects from it.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: VinnAY on March 23, 2015, 03:52:28 pm
Talk to your Dr about organ failure and letting your testes shrivel up and die; HcG.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Hydranted on March 23, 2015, 04:05:54 pm
Was hcg given to you at start of treatment or something you had to convince

In my opinion, hCG should be part of every TRT protocol. 

It's benefits go beyond preservation of fertility.  HCG allows the testes to remain functional, something that is lost when using exogenous testosterone without hCG.  The testes have many roles, sperm production is only part of their job description.  The testes aid in the production of other hormones, so it's a no brainer for me to keep that going.

It will also prevent testicular atrophy/aching caused by exogenous testosterone.  Not everyone experiences the aches or discomfort, but those who do very much appreciate the job that hCG does to combat it.

I am on hCG which has been prescribed by my doctor, and I've only experienced positive effects from it.


It was prescribed at the same time that I began testosterone replacement.  My doctor was the one who recommended that I use hCG.  He works with a TRT clinic though, which makes him much more likely to be educated on its benefits and open to it's use.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: SteveT on March 23, 2015, 04:32:21 pm
If it's just about saving your testicle size - consider topical iodine (not the stuff from the store)  I have been on and off HcG several times and just feel better off it.  May be that is raises E to high in me.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Kierkegaard on March 23, 2015, 04:36:01 pm
Adding to Hydranted's great post, HCG also keeps your LH going, which keeps your P450scc enzyme going, which means more pregnenolone, progesterone, and (most importantly) cortisol, which affects stress management.  Without HCG and just T you're more likely to lower your cortisol too much proportionate to how high your T dose is.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: SteveT on March 23, 2015, 04:51:02 pm
K - sort of following your protocol - I am injecting 22mg Monday, Wednesday, Friday SubQ in belly and shoulder.  Don't have any new numbers to share but am feeling great.  My cortisol was likely too high especially at night.  I used Seriphos Phosphorylated Serine to reset my cortisol timing and now I don't get yanked out of bed at 3:00am.

I want to naturally raise my Aldosterone if you have any suggestions.  I have hearing loss that's quite likely related to low Aldosterone.  I've had 3 urine and one blood test - all were low.  Started to work with the Wright Clinic in Washington over the Aldosterone issue but got scared off by what I consider poor handling.  Want to find a way to naturally raise Aldosterone myself...
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: PeakT on March 23, 2015, 05:01:05 pm
Talk to your Dr about organ failure and letting your testes shrivel up and die; HcG.

Yes, although HCG does not do anything for the pituitary. 
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: euphorixx1 on March 23, 2015, 05:10:57 pm
K - sort of following your protocol - I am injecting 22mg Monday, Wednesday, Friday SubQ in belly and shoulder.  Don't have any new numbers to share but am feeling great.  My cortisol was likely too high especially at night.  I used Seriphos Phosphorylated Serine to reset my cortisol timing and now I don't get yanked out of bed at 3:00am.

I want to naturally raise my Aldosterone if you have any suggestions.  I have hearing loss that's quite likely related to low Aldosterone.  I've had 3 urine and one blood test - all were low.  Started to work with the Wright Clinic in Washington over the Aldosterone issue but got scared off by what I consider poor handling.  Want to find a way to naturally raise Aldosterone myself...

how did you use seriphos phosphorylated serine, I am wondering if I have high cortisol.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Zooka15 on March 23, 2015, 05:16:51 pm
If it's just about saving your testicle size - consider topical iodine (not the stuff from the store)  I have been on and off HcG several times and just feel better off it.  May be that is raises E to high in me.
How does the iodine help? Also it seems to me most are using HCG, what does this cost a month? as I am sure my insurance will not cover it, it was hard to get them to cover tcyp
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Kierkegaard on March 23, 2015, 05:27:51 pm
K - sort of following your protocol - I am injecting 22mg Monday, Wednesday, Friday SubQ in belly and shoulder.  Don't have any new numbers to share but am feeling great.  My cortisol was likely too high especially at night.  I used Seriphos Phosphorylated Serine to reset my cortisol timing and now I don't get yanked out of bed at 3:00am.

I want to naturally raise my Aldosterone if you have any suggestions.  I have hearing loss that's quite likely related to low Aldosterone.  I've had 3 urine and one blood test - all were low.  Started to work with the Wright Clinic in Washington over the Aldosterone issue but got scared off by what I consider poor handling.  Want to find a way to naturally raise Aldosterone myself...

Good to hear on feeling great!  Very interesting how you used serine; was that something you picked up on your own or did your doc recommend it?

Let me get specific here and break this down: you started HCG and noticed higher cortisol, then went on serine and started feeling better (better sleep)? 

Also, any chance if your aldosterone reduced any before and while on HCG?  I ask because it's possible that because HCG kicks up cortisol (as it should, and as testosterone alone tends not to do as well), you might be downregulating aldosterone because cortisol is higher.  Higher cortisol --> lower ACTH --> lower aldosterone.  You might try lowering your HCG dose???  Not sure on what to say on that one (because I'm still learning on the cortisol thing). 

ETA: also, do you notice low blood pressure?  (Lower aldosterone means less water retention --> lower blood pressure usually.)
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: factor5a on March 23, 2015, 05:32:48 pm
sblavesc

I was on TRT  for about 3 years with only testoserone and never had a good Free Test level(always on the ow level) until I learned about HCG and then I started having nice numbers for FRee test.

I don't find any other explanation for that other than the use of HCG.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Zooka15 on March 23, 2015, 05:46:18 pm
sblavesc

I was on TRT  for about 3 years with only testoserone and never had a good Free Test level(always on the ow level) until I learned about HCG and then I started having nice numbers for FRee test.

I don't find any other explanation for that other than the use of HCG.

Did your doc provide, also if so how did you go about the conversation? On a side note how long does hcg last once mixed I see varying weeks on Google?
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: factor5a on March 23, 2015, 06:03:42 pm
sblavesc

I was on TRT  for about 3 years with only testoserone and never had a good Free Test level(always on the ow level) until I learned about HCG and then I started having nice numbers for FRee test.

I don't find any other explanation for that other than the use of HCG.

Did your doc provide, also if so how did you go about the conversation? On a side note how long does hcg last once mixed I see varying weeks on Google?

No

Here where I live, you can go to the pharmacy and buy whatever you want. ;D . I learned about adding HCG on the forums .I don't think many doctors know about this, unfortunately.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: timmy11 on March 23, 2015, 06:10:18 pm
Interesting!! I have been on just TRT for the past 7 months.  Is it too late to add HCG? My Dr. should be ok with it here in NY state. Thanks!
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Kierkegaard on March 23, 2015, 06:14:17 pm
Interesting!! I have been on just TRT for the past 7 months.  Is it too late to add HCG? My Dr. should be ok with it here in NY state. Thanks!

Shouldn't be.  LH stimulation should happen pretty quickly, however any sperm production issues will take months if they've been downregulated (as they should be). 
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Hydranted on March 23, 2015, 06:46:26 pm
sblavesc

I was on TRT  for about 3 years with only testoserone and never had a good Free Test level(always on the ow level) until I learned about HCG and then I started having nice numbers for FRee test.

I don't find any other explanation for that other than the use of HCG.

Did your doc provide, also if so how did you go about the conversation? On a side note how long does hcg last once mixed I see varying weeks on Google?


It depends on the manufacturer, but it's usually recommended to use it within 30-60 days after reconstitution.  It also needs to be refrigerated.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: factor5a on March 23, 2015, 06:50:00 pm
Interesting!! I have been on just TRT for the past 7 months.  Is it too late to add HCG? My Dr. should be ok with it here in NY state. Thanks!

Shouldn't be.  LH stimulation should happen pretty quickly, however any sperm production issues will take months if they've been downregulated (as they should be).

Agree
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: timmy11 on March 23, 2015, 06:53:27 pm
Interesting!! I have been on just TRT for the past 7 months.  Is it too late to add HCG? My Dr. should be ok with it here in NY state. Thanks!

Shouldn't be.  LH stimulation should happen pretty quickly, however any sperm production issues will take months if they've been downregulated (as they should be).

Agree
I am having deep sleep issues and insomnia. It is possibly related to an inner ear issue, but if I followed these threads correctly, it should keep normal production of accompanying hormones like progesterone and others and then keep cortisol in check.  I literally cannot fall asleep at night for the past 3-4 weeks. Relying on naps and just keep on moving.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Kierkegaard on March 23, 2015, 07:01:42 pm
Interesting!! I have been on just TRT for the past 7 months.  Is it too late to add HCG? My Dr. should be ok with it here in NY state. Thanks!

Shouldn't be.  LH stimulation should happen pretty quickly, however any sperm production issues will take months if they've been downregulated (as they should be).

Agree
I am having deep sleep issues and insomnia. It is possibly related to an inner ear issue, but if I followed these threads correctly, it should keep normal production of accompanying hormones like progesterone and others and then keep cortisol in check.  I literally cannot fall asleep at night for the past 3-4 weeks. Relying on naps and just keep on moving.

Yikes!  You might try your old method of IM shots to feel better for a while, then come back and investigate with labwork after going back subq. 
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: SteveT on March 23, 2015, 07:13:21 pm
I'm not sure my cortisol wasn't heading up before HcG - hard to say.  You know those things kind of sneak up on you.  I originally found Phosphatidyl serine (PS) (not to be confused with Seriphos Phosphorylated Serine)  PS was expensive and not very effective.  That lead me to Seriphos Phosphorylated Serine.  Google Seriphos Phosphorylated and Cortisol and you'll get a boatload of information.

For nighttime waking take it 6 hours before - if you wake a 3am take at 9pm.  I would take 1 cap at 9pm and another around midnight if I happened to wakeup.  You only need to take it for about a month.  If it hasn't done the trick stay off it for a week and then start again.

Also found the iodine on the nuts trick on the internet.  Don't know why but it does seem to be working.  I use 5 drops of jcrows iodine every morning.  It may be that it brings blood to them.  I understand using a vibrator on them for 10 or 15 minutes every day will do the same - but not very convenient. 
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Kierkegaard on March 23, 2015, 07:24:19 pm
I'm not sure my cortisol wasn't heading up before HcG - hard to say.  You know those things kind of sneak up on you.  I originally found Phosphatidyl serine (PS) (not to be confused with Seriphos Phosphorylated Serine)  PS was expensive and not very effective.  That lead me to Seriphos Phosphorylated Serine.  Google Seriphos Phosphorylated and Cortisol and you'll get a boatload of information.

For nighttime waking take it 6 hours before - if you wake a 3am take at 9pm.  I would take 1 cap at 9pm and another around midnight if I happened to wakeup.  You only need to take it for about a month.  If it hasn't done the trick stay off it for a week and then start again.

Also found the iodine on the nuts trick on the internet.  Don't know why but it does seem to be working.  I use 5 drops of jcrows iodine every morning.  It may be that it brings blood to them.  I understand using a vibrator on them for 10 or 15 minutes every day will do the same - but not very convenient.

Will do, thanks. 
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: timmy11 on March 23, 2015, 07:29:22 pm
Interesting!! I have been on just TRT for the past 7 months.  Is it too late to add HCG? My Dr. should be ok with it here in NY state. Thanks!

Shouldn't be.  LH stimulation should happen pretty quickly, however any sperm production issues will take months if they've been downregulated (as they should be).

Agree
I am having deep sleep issues and insomnia. It is possibly related to an inner ear issue, but if I followed these threads correctly, it should keep normal production of accompanying hormones like progesterone and others and then keep cortisol in check.  I literally cannot fall asleep at night for the past 3-4 weeks. Relying on naps and just keep on moving.

Yikes!  You might try your old method of IM shots to feel better for a while, then come back and investigate with labwork after going back subq.
K, I have blood work being done for sure this Thursday. Just injected this morning. I need some numbers before I adjust!! Like we talked earlier, my insomnia possibly has 2 other causes. Antibiotics, and inner ear issue.  If I wasn't on TRT it would be a lot worse. I do have energy and optimism just limited!!
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Zooka15 on March 23, 2015, 07:57:54 pm
Any input from any other if they are using hcg or not. Or even if you started or stopped it. All this has me thinking so I made a appt with another doc just to get his thought, by chance has anyone had an experience with him?
http://www.ucl-stl.com/doctors/goldenberg.htm
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Osprey on March 23, 2015, 08:11:17 pm
I spent my first 2.5 years on TRT with no HCG. Had no luck convincing any of the docs I was seeing to prescribe it so I had to find and switch to a doc who does.

I've been trying it with T for a couple of months. I'm still trying to dial things in. I've felt some evidence that it may be having an effect but nothing definitive yet.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: jinNE on March 23, 2015, 08:54:18 pm
I did HCG before taking T and HCG had absolutely ZERO effect on my T levels. It was a waste of time - in my case - and I wish I had just gone to the T shots right away. Between the HCG, the gels, the pellets (nightmare), I lost close to a year of the good stuff - T injections! :)
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Kierkegaard on March 23, 2015, 08:57:51 pm
I did HCG before taking T and HCG had absolutely ZERO effect on my T levels. It was a waste of time - in my case - and I wish I had just gone to the T shots right away. Between the HCG, the gels, the pellets (nightmare), I lost close to a year of the good stuff - T injections! :)

Any chance you have primary (rather than secondary) hypogonadism?  Were your LH and FSH levels super high when you got bloodwork verifying your diagnosis?
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Zooka15 on March 23, 2015, 09:00:53 pm
I spent my first 2.5 years on TRT with no HCG. Had no luck convincing any of the docs I was seeing to prescribe it so I had to find and switch to a doc who does.

I've been trying it with T for a couple of months. I'm still trying to dial things in. I've felt some evidence that it may be having an effect but nothing definitive yet.

What effects are you feeling it is having? How did you find a doc just by chance?
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: PeakT on March 23, 2015, 09:07:22 pm
I did HCG before taking T and HCG had absolutely ZERO effect on my T levels. It was a waste of time - in my case - and I wish I had just gone to the T shots right away. Between the HCG, the gels, the pellets (nightmare), I lost close to a year of the good stuff - T injections! :)

If so, then you're probably one of the few primary guys on here.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Zooka15 on March 23, 2015, 09:09:05 pm
Peak, what are your thoughts on HCG?
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Osprey on March 23, 2015, 09:24:48 pm
I spent my first 2.5 years on TRT with no HCG. Had no luck convincing any of the docs I was seeing to prescribe it so I had to find and switch to a doc who does.

I've been trying it with T for a couple of months. I'm still trying to dial things in. I've felt some evidence that it may be having an effect but nothing definitive yet.

What effects are you feeling it is having? How did you find a doc just by chance?

There has been a few hours on 2 separate days in the past 2 months where my libido was not zero. I would say on a scale of 1-10, where 10 is what it was at 19 years old, it was a 1 or 2.

As for a doc, I bit the bullet and traveled over 4 states to go see Dr. Shippen.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Kierkegaard on March 23, 2015, 09:26:30 pm
I spent my first 2.5 years on TRT with no HCG. Had no luck convincing any of the docs I was seeing to prescribe it so I had to find and switch to a doc who does.

I've been trying it with T for a couple of months. I'm still trying to dial things in. I've felt some evidence that it may be having an effect but nothing definitive yet.

What effects are you feeling it is having? How did you find a doc just by chance?

There has been a few hours on 2 separate days in the past 2 months where my libido was not zero. I would say on a scale of 1-10, where 10 is what it was at 19 years old, it was a 1 or 2.

As for a doc, I bit the bullet and traveled over 4 states to go see Dr. Shippen.

What was your impression of Shippen?  I've heard very good things.  He seems like a mentor type to Crisler, and that can't be a bad thing!
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Osprey on March 23, 2015, 10:03:02 pm
What was your impression of Shippen?  I've heard very good things.  He seems like a mentor type to Crisler, and that can't be a bad thing!

I'd say his reputation is well deserved. He is a really nice guy and very easy to talk to. Before seeing him I had to write a letter explaining my history and why I was coming to see him. My letter ended up being quite lengthy because I had already been to several TRT docs and tried several forms of treatment. In my 2 hour discussion with him it became apparent that he actually read, no, I would say studied, my letter because he actually referred back to comments that I had made in it. Most doctors I've seen don't look at my records until after they walk into the exam room.

The jury is still out as to whether he can actually help me or not, but I none of the other docs I've seen any idea what to do or try.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: SomeGuy on March 23, 2015, 10:49:57 pm
I spent my first 2.5 years on TRT with no HCG. Had no luck convincing any of the docs I was seeing to prescribe it so I had to find and switch to a doc who does.

I've been trying it with T for a couple of months. I'm still trying to dial things in. I've felt some evidence that it may be having an effect but nothing definitive yet.

Have you noticed any increase in testicle size since adding the HCG?
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Osprey on March 23, 2015, 11:37:59 pm
I spent my first 2.5 years on TRT with no HCG. Had no luck convincing any of the docs I was seeing to prescribe it so I had to find and switch to a doc who does.

I've been trying it with T for a couple of months. I'm still trying to dial things in. I've felt some evidence that it may be having an effect but nothing definitive yet.

Have you noticed any increase in testicle size since adding the HCG?

No, it does not seem like they've changed at all.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: timmy11 on March 23, 2015, 11:44:57 pm
What was your impression of Shippen?  I've heard very good things.  He seems like a mentor type to Crisler, and that can't be a bad thing!

I'd say his reputation is well deserved. He is a really nice guy and very easy to talk to. Before seeing him I had to write a letter explaining my history and why I was coming to see him. My letter ended up being quite lengthy because I had already been to several TRT docs and tried several forms of treatment. In my 2 hour discussion with him it became apparent that he actually read, no, I would say studied, my letter because he actually referred back to comments that I had made in it. Most doctors I've seen don't look at my records until after they walk into the exam room.

The jury is still out as to whether he can actually help me or not, but I none of the other docs I've seen any idea what to do or try.
If you don't mind me asking, how much does Dr. Shippen cost?
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: VinnAY on March 24, 2015, 12:31:30 am
I spent my first 2.5 years on TRT with no HCG. Had no luck convincing any of the docs I was seeing to prescribe it so I had to find and switch to a doc who does.

I've been trying it with T for a couple of months. I'm still trying to dial things in. I've felt some evidence that it may be having an effect but nothing definitive yet.

Have you noticed any increase in testicle size since adding the HCG?

I think I have noticed an increase, some, yes.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Osprey on March 24, 2015, 01:36:30 am
What was your impression of Shippen?  I've heard very good things.  He seems like a mentor type to Crisler, and that can't be a bad thing!

I'd say his reputation is well deserved. He is a really nice guy and very easy to talk to. Before seeing him I had to write a letter explaining my history and why I was coming to see him. My letter ended up being quite lengthy because I had already been to several TRT docs and tried several forms of treatment. In my 2 hour discussion with him it became apparent that he actually read, no, I would say studied, my letter because he actually referred back to comments that I had made in it. Most doctors I've seen don't look at my records until after they walk into the exam room.

The jury is still out as to whether he can actually help me or not, but I none of the other docs I've seen any idea what to do or try.
If you don't mind me asking, how much does Dr. Shippen cost?

$600 for the initial consult. $185 for follow ups. Labs are covered by my insurance.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: SomeGuy on March 24, 2015, 04:01:19 am
I spent my first 2.5 years on TRT with no HCG. Had no luck convincing any of the docs I was seeing to prescribe it so I had to find and switch to a doc who does.

I've been trying it with T for a couple of months. I'm still trying to dial things in. I've felt some evidence that it may be having an effect but nothing definitive yet.

Have you noticed any increase in testicle size since adding the HCG?

I think I have noticed an increase, some, yes.

Vinnay, how long were you on T without HCG before you started HCG? I'm trying to get a sense of how long a guy can be shut down and still bounce back.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Hydranted on March 24, 2015, 12:56:16 pm
I spent my first 2.5 years on TRT with no HCG. Had no luck convincing any of the docs I was seeing to prescribe it so I had to find and switch to a doc who does.

I've been trying it with T for a couple of months. I'm still trying to dial things in. I've felt some evidence that it may be having an effect but nothing definitive yet.

Have you noticed any increase in testicle size since adding the HCG?

I think I have noticed an increase, some, yes.

Vinnay, how long were you on T without HCG before you started HCG? I'm trying to get a sense of how long a guy can be shut down and still bounce back.


The testes will always (in the absence of some type of rare extenuating circumstance) be able to be restored to their original size.  It doesn't really matter how long you've been shut down, they'll bounce back with hCG.  It might take a couple of months, but it'll happen.  As long as the dose isn't too low there shouldn't be any issues.
Title: Re: HCG consensus and how to obtain
Post by: Zooka15 on March 25, 2015, 09:47:40 pm
Just wanted to bring this back up to the top to get others thoughts on HCG.