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General Category => Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health => Topic started by: feelgood on January 14, 2013, 04:20:23 pm

Title: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: feelgood on January 14, 2013, 04:20:23 pm
Hi guys - Would appreciate thoughts on my bloods. From Dec 2-Jan 2, i took 1,500 IU HCG mono 3X a week. Had my blood drawn Jan 2. Then i went down to 500 IU 3X a week, through today. I had been on clomid prior, which raised my T from around 220/250 to around low 500s. But my free T never got above "low/out of range."

went to my urologist today and here are the results, as it reads on the printout he gave me:

Total testosterone: 874 ng/dl (300-1000)
Free testosterone: 1.32 ng/dL (0.95-4.30)
SHBG: 32 nmol/L (10-50)
Estradiol: 74.4 pg/ml (20.0-75.0)

So, nice bump on the overall T. Wish the free T would pop up more, but that seems to be a stubborn thing for me. The thing that will probably jump out to most of you is the estrodial. After reading on here and elsewhere, it seems so high. The doctor glossed over it/wasn't concerned at all. I asked whether this is the "sensitive assay" test and he didn't really answer or seem to know. I asked about arimidex, and he says he doesn't like to prescribe it, as it can really lower bone density in his opinion, and he said in my case, he wouldn't prescribe it, as on my initial visit back in March, i came in a bit low on bone density.

So, what are your thoughts? Any ideas on lowering that somehow another way? I told him i lowered my HCG dose to 500 IU 3X a week, and he thought it was fine, but that i might be "under dosing" myself at that amount. He didn't buy off on any "leydig cell densensitization" argument.  I will go back in, in 2 months to see my bloods on that new protocol. Perhaps i'll have to lose some points on overall T in order to have that estrodial maybe come down a bit.

Ok, now the more important part - how do i feel. Overall, i guess i feel pretty great. No real depression, no anxiety really, no nipple sensitivity or anything that would suggest too high an estrodial count. Erection quality decent, not a ton of morning wood, libido is ok, hit or miss i guess. I think i feel a bit better now, than when on clomid.

So, that's it. He's done well by me, fixing my varicocele via surgery and thereby helping my fertility chances (we're trying to have a baby) and getting my overall T up by being proactive on things like clomid and HCG. Just sort of wondering if he's right in blowing off the estrodial thing (he did ask me if i had the normal symptoms like man boobs, etc and i said "no"). But at the end of the day, he knows more than me, obviously. And i need to concentrate on the fact that overall i do feel good. I just feel like my erections/libido could be better. Who knows.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: feelgood on January 14, 2013, 06:39:03 pm
good timing as i just noticed Peak put a blog post up on this topic on the main site. Bad part: none of them sound promising. The DIM stuff does, but maybe i should wait 2 months before i do anything and see how my estrodial does on this dropped dosage (500IU 3 x week).
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: PeakT on January 14, 2013, 06:56:59 pm
If you feel good, that's great.  But I have to post this for some discussion points with your doctor once again:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2010/may2010_Why-Estrogen-Balance-is-Critical-to-Aging-Men_01.htm

"Of concern to us 14 years ago were reports showing that excess estrogen contributes to the development of atherosclerosis.8,9 Human clinical studies conducted more than a decade later confirmed our suspicions. Men with even slightly elevated estrogen levels doubled their risk of stroke and had far higher incidences of coronary artery disease.10-12 Our early observations also revealed that men presenting with benign prostate enlargement or prostate cancer had higher blood estrogen levels (and often low free testosterone blood levels).13-16"

Now, admittedly, these studies were not on men on HRT or HCG therapy.  But I just can't imagine anyone arguing that high estrdiol levels are going to be good for you.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: feelgood on January 15, 2013, 03:29:26 pm
thanks Peak...yes i'm going to have this as a print out - at least i think.

I mean, it's a little frustrating. I've asked about this, really have not gotten a sufficient answer, so unsure of what do next. I mean, i sort of hate walking in there with a print out, calling him out as being "out of touch." it's a delicate thing. He's a fairly nice guy, and i do ask a lot of questions, and i wonder what he thinks. I'm always saying "well i read this, or that...." and i wonder if he's just thinking in his head  "oh great, another internet guy getting overloaded with information, etc etc"

I think i'm not going to do really any harder core e2 inhibitor trys, as i want to see if lowering my HCG dose helps, while not sliding me back into the 400s or whatever. For once, i think i want to be disciplined and try one approach at a time to see what is effective and what is not.

At least for now, i don't have really weird symptoms. I get the sense the e2 might be holding me back on morning wood, nocturnals, etc but SO FAR any way it doesn't seem to be crippling me. So i'll hold out for 2 months i guess.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: PeakT on January 15, 2013, 04:27:54 pm
thanks Peak...yes i'm going to have this as a print out - at least i think.

I mean, it's a little frustrating. I've asked about this, really have not gotten a sufficient answer, so unsure of what do next. I mean, i sort of hate walking in there with a print out, calling him out as being "out of touch." it's a delicate thing. He's a fairly nice guy, and i do ask a lot of questions, and i wonder what he thinks. I'm always saying "well i read this, or that...." and i wonder if he's just thinking in his head  "oh great, another internet guy getting overloaded with information, etc etc"

I think i'm not going to do really any harder core e2 inhibitor trys, as i want to see if lowering my HCG dose helps, while not sliding me back into the 400s or whatever. For once, i think i want to be disciplined and try one approach at a time to see what is effective and what is not.

At least for now, i don't have really weird symptoms. I get the sense the e2 might be holding me back on morning wood, nocturnals, etc but SO FAR any way it doesn't seem to be crippling me. So i'll hold out for 2 months i guess.

Did you read PRSArtists' and anonymous' commentary on what estradiol control did for them?  It was the final ingredient that made all the difference in the world.  What I'm getting at is that I suspect your doctor just hasn't tried E2 control and so doesn't know what a big impact it can have for some men.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: JackAndy on January 16, 2013, 12:06:51 pm
HCG really causes more E2 than injecting oils for the same serum levels. I can't imagine taking HCG at those doses without it. Your doctor's concern in the decrease if bone density is reasonable, but too much estrogen will also cause a decrease in bone density (in a different area) because then testosterone will drop too low. There is a balance which is important.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: feelgood on January 16, 2013, 03:53:18 pm
thanks for the comments...and i still don't get my lab's (Quest) ranges for e2 (the 20.0-75.0 pg/ml). It's so different than all the others i see on here or other boards. It makes it hard to put it in context for me.

either way, i feel like i should get a second opinion from another doctor on the e2. He is simply saying it's not a big deal, and so many of his patients have it really much higher.... My searches are coming up empty though for another doc. I know if i go to a run of the mill uro or endo, they won't get it. So it's hard to find another "men's health" specific place around here.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: Prsartist on January 16, 2013, 04:16:56 pm
OMG,  this post scares the crap outta me!
E2 of 78 should not be passed over!

Everyone is different, but I could NOT get an erection with
My E2 levels above 30!  I had struggled with this for the past 6 months, and I'm on a pretty high
Dose of arimidex .75mg EOD.

If your noticing lack of morning wood, and your continuing the same
Treatment dose and schedule?  That # will only get higher.  Sooner or later your lack of morning wood
Could turn into "lack of ANY wood"! 
Even my Dr. Would treat an E2 level of 78!  This really isn't OK to be that high!

And it's not just erections as peak posted above,  there are ALOT of other problems
Associated with high E2,  and none of them you really want to deal with!

Good grief,  it still upsets me to this day that Dr's still do this!!!
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: Prsartist on January 16, 2013, 04:37:07 pm
thanks Peak...yes i'm going to have this as a print out - at least i think.

I mean, it's a little frustrating. I've asked about this, really have not gotten a sufficient answer, so unsure of what do next. I mean, i sort of hate walking in there with a print out, calling him out as being "out of touch." it's a delicate thing. He's a fairly nice guy, and i do ask a lot of questions, and i wonder what he thinks. I'm always saying "well i read this, or that...." and i wonder if he's just thinking in his head  "oh great, another internet guy getting overloaded with information, etc etc"

I think i'm not going to do really any harder core e2 inhibitor trys, as i want to see if lowering my HCG dose helps, while not sliding me back into the 400s or whatever. For once, i think i want to be disciplined and try one approach at a time to see what is effective and what is not.

At least for now, i don't have really weird symptoms. I get the sense the e2 might be holding me back on morning wood, nocturnals, etc but SO FAR any way it doesn't seem to be crippling me. So i'll hold out for 2 months i guess.

Nice guy or not, the important thing to remember is he works for you!  You do not work for him!
There are very few Dr's with any knowledge or expierence with TRT, so finding a more knowledgeable
Dr certainly won't be an easy task!
It wasn't easy to convince my Dr that 30 was
Not a good # for me!!  But I basically told him that I know
What I'm talking about, (thanks to peak & this forum) you need to help me!
If I can hit an E2 of 22 and things arent ALOT better, then I would buy lunch
For his entire office!
Guess what???  I won't be buying lunch! After a few days on the higher dose
I already notice a world of difference!!!
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: feelgood on January 16, 2013, 04:47:41 pm
OMG,  this post scares the crap outta me!
E2 of 78 should not be passed over!

Everyone is different, but I could NOT get an erection with
My E2 levels above 30!  I had struggled with this for the past 6 months, and I'm on a pretty high
Dose of arimidex .75mg EOD.

If your noticing lack of morning wood, and your continuing the same
Treatment dose and schedule?  That # will only get higher.  Sooner or later your lack of morning wood
Could turn into "lack of ANY wood"! 
Even my Dr. Would treat an E2 level of 78!  This really isn't OK to be that high!

And it's not just erections as peak posted above,  there are ALOT of other problems
Associated with high E2,  and none of them you really want to deal with!

Good grief,  it still upsets me to this day that Dr's still do this!!!

i have dropped from 1500 IU 3x week to 500IU 3x a week of HCG mono. Will get tested again in march. I imagine this will bring my 874 TT level down some, but also the e2 as well. We'll see. I'm not going to press him too hard on the arimidex just yet. Honestly? i would really rather not add another medication to things if i don't have to. Obviously if i lose all erection capacity my thought would probably change on that, but so far that has not really happened.

Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: Prsartist on January 16, 2013, 05:24:19 pm
Yes total ED will change your opinion of the "nice guy" Dr.!
The important thing to remember is to change 1 thing att a time so you know how your body reacts.
HCG will raise E2 levels along with T levels. (I take it too)
Be sure to get checked as much as possible
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: feelgood on January 16, 2013, 06:16:02 pm
yeah, when i left him and went back to the front desk, the receptionist said "ok so we will see you in march." I had thought i would come back a little sooner than that.

Yes, i was hoping to finally try "one thing at a time"  but now i'm sort of panicking, and i'm not sure i'll be able resist at least trying DIM. But then i won't know if it was the lowered HCG dose or the DIM that helps e2 (if i'm helped at all)...

hmmm...what would you do?

And what protocol are you on? are you on HCG mono?
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: Prsartist on January 16, 2013, 09:13:38 pm
I'm only on 200 iu 2x a week, so I  really can't say what I would do.
I know that HCG doesnt help your E2 levels!
Dropping from 1500 to 500 will help lower it, but I doubt it will drop
You into the 20's where you need to be.

What is "DIM" ??
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: PeakT on January 16, 2013, 09:35:00 pm

What is "DIM" ??

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Natural_Estrogen_Blockers
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: Prsartist on January 16, 2013, 11:32:25 pm
Well, that does seem awfully. Complicated & time consuming!
I suppose if you've got the time and drive to expirement and monitor
Your intake that may help you out??

Seems like too much guesswork for me....
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: feelgood on January 17, 2013, 01:58:32 am
this is what someone said on another forum regarding my e2 result (the 74.6 pg/ml)...clarifies it in one sense, but on the other hand still just as confused. So in other words, the test i had was totally useless and maybe i don't have high e2?


"Unfortunately, that result is worthless.

From Quest, you need the Estradiol, Ultrasensitive test with a range of <=29.

If you aren't having symptoms of high E2 such as gyno, then I would not treat high E2 seeing as though you might not have an issue."
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: Prsartist on January 17, 2013, 01:44:23 pm
Personally I don't buy that.
I watched my E2 rise from from a baseline
Of 26 all the way up to 88.  5 months living with
Total ED makes me call BS on that!
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: PeakT on January 17, 2013, 04:30:40 pm
If you aren't having symptoms of high E2 such as gyno, then I would not treat high E2 seeing as though you might not have an issue."

This is a debatable assumption.  Are guys with low testosterone and few symptoms really safe from Metabolic Syndrome and Diabetes?  Well, I don't think anyone has looked at that specifically, but I don't think you can make that assumption.  You would need to monitor, imo, blood sugar and insulin control.  And if the man has low testosterone and no signs of blood sugar issues, then all may be well. 

So I guess what I'm saying is that perhaps high E2 can be okay for some guys, but if I was going to try to live with high E2 for some reason, I would try to figure out a way to monitor all the standard stuff very closely:  glucose/insulin/inflammation/blood pressure.  Even then, you may not be safe as estrogen is very tied into brain chemistry and there's no way to monitor that at this time.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: anonymous11 on January 21, 2013, 06:31:29 am
PRArtist - Please read about my experience from my forum in the last couple pages. I hope this helps you:

https://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=513.120
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: Prsartist on January 21, 2013, 03:22:42 pm
Well I totally agree everyone is different!
And that some guys can function normally with higher e2 levels.
My question would then be are they functioning "optimally"?

I've read ( and from my personal exp.). That my body is very sensitive
To changes in E2!  Since starting with my higher than avg. arimidex dose
Thing are MUCH better!! I see the soldier saluting me EVERY morning!

Never saw the soldier when my E2 levels were 30!
Take that for what it's worth....
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: JustAskin on January 21, 2013, 04:55:56 pm
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21485&stc=1&d=1212097013

here is a chart you can plug in your SHGB and TT and get Free T. and see where you are.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: Prsartist on January 24, 2013, 11:52:46 am
PRArtist - Please read about my experience from my forum in the last couple pages. I hope this helps you:

https://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=513.120

I'm glad to see someone else taking as high a dose of arimidex
As I am!!
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: anonymous11 on January 27, 2013, 03:53:37 am
I still am taking .5 to 1 mg of Armidex daily. From what most said on here it is a high dose, however, I feel most functional on it so I go with what works for me. I believe everybody has different tolerance to medicine so I have not right to ever recommend something to other but from my personnel experience, 1 CC of T Cyp a week with this dosage of Armidex makes me feel like I am normal. I make sure to take vitamin D and calcium supplements to ensue to bone loss from the Armidex as I hear it's a bad side effect.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: JackAndy on January 27, 2013, 03:59:18 am
I make sure to take vitamin D and calcium supplements to ensue to bone loss from the Armidex as I hear it's a bad side effect.

The only side effect of Arimidex is low estrogen. It has no other effects. Estrogen does play a part in bone density, especially in your lower body, so if it gets too low, yes you can have a problem. But at that point you would also have dry joints, be irritable as hell, no libido... I think you'd notice those before you break a hip. Testosterone also affects bone density too. Both sex hormones have a lot of the same functions. That's why we need a balance. You can be a boy, a girl but if you have nothing... good luck.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: PeakT on January 27, 2013, 05:24:51 pm

The only side effect of Arimidex is low estrogen. It has no other effects.

I know why you say this.  When you browse through the steroid forums, all of the sides can be explained by this.  However, I think it's naive - and I'm not trying to be insulting here - to think that any pharmaceutical is without side effects long term.  I cannot think of one pharmaceutical that does not affect some other outside, unexpected system.  It also seems gentle on the liver.

Again, I remember when they told me that the old line antihistamines were fine and they turned out to affect memory. 

Let me ask this question:  if Arimidex binds to AI, can we say for sure it does not affect any other enzyme system? 

In addition, Arimidex does seem imo to produce sides in the brain.  Guys get weird mood and other changes.  Yes, this could be estrogen, but to me it seems a bit more than that. 

That's just my two cents...
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: anonymous11 on January 27, 2013, 07:44:31 pm
I am very interested to see my estrodiol readings next month on my third month of Armidex. I did something wild and spontaneous with my wife last night on our date night...I don't want to get personnel but it was a blast. Armidex on my third month about to start has been a miracle with my T-injections...Words still cannot describe the benefits. I tried many things natural and not so natural but this is the combo that works for me. I just want to know if and when can I stop Armidex. I do know that I naturally have a very low T score and need to take shots so I expect that the shots will be for a lifetime but what about the Armidex?
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: PeakT on January 27, 2013, 09:02:17 pm
I just want to know if and when can I stop Armidex. I do know that I naturally have a very low T score and need to take shots so I expect that the shots will be for a lifetime but what about the Armidex?

Again, I've heard that a majority of men can stop after about 6-12 months.  That's strictly based on "heresay" though.  Keep watching those E2 reads...
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: anonymous11 on January 27, 2013, 11:54:22 pm
Do you have any scientific evidence for men that states the leveling off after 6-12 months? This is a subject that I would like to see in a medical journal or documentation like that.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: PeakT on January 28, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Do you have any scientific evidence for men that states the leveling off after 6-12 months? This is a subject that I would like to see in a medical journal or documentation like that.

No.  Like I said, this is based on word of mouth.  However, it's important to note that it was really the steroid community that pioneered and promulgated and popularized testosterone usage.  Now I don't agree with steroids and going supraphysiological.  But we all owe them a debt whether we like it or not.  And where I am going with this:  word of mouth is all we have on many, many subjects at this point.  The research, unfortunately, just does not go where it should imo and endocrinological issues should be front and center if you ask me.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: anonymous11 on January 28, 2013, 01:52:14 am
I understand. This would be a great thesis for someone in doctorate school. I guess at this point the only way I will know is following the word of mouth from their community and see where it leads me. I will stop the Armidex anywhere from 6-12 months. I will take a before I stop estrodiol lab work then after a couple months then after 6 months. I will see if it barely comes up or if it comes up drastically from the T shots because of the conversion factor. I will be one more word of mouth to pass on the wisdom to you all for more verification. I still have a while to go but I will keep you informed.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: PeakT on January 28, 2013, 04:21:30 am
I will stop the Armidex anywhere from 6-12 months.

Talk to your doc.  My guess is that his protocol would be one of the following:

1)  Wait until you get a low E2 reading and then back off a bit on the dosage
2)  Back off a bit on the dosage and then a few weeks later take a reading to see how E2 turns out.

In other words, I'm not sure it's wise to quit cold turkey if that's what you are saying.  What's worse long term, Arimidex or high E2?  That will have to be decided upon by your own personal research and the doc if that is the situation that arises.  (You can also back down the E2 and some guys can lose weight - you're thin of course - as an alternative #3 and #4.)
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: JackAndy on January 28, 2013, 12:02:40 pm
It depends on your body if you can stop the Arimidex but I'd say it's doubtful that you can just stop taking it. The testosterone you're injecting has a higher tendency to aromatize than testosterone made by your body so even at the same serum levels, your estrogen will be higher. Natural T is secreted in cycles and pulses, it's different.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: PeakT on January 28, 2013, 02:53:25 pm
It depends on your body if you can stop the Arimidex but I'd say it's doubtful that you can just stop taking it. The testosterone you're injecting has a higher tendency to aromatize than testosterone made by your body so even at the same serum levels, your estrogen will be higher. Natural T is secreted in cycles and pulses, it's different.

What you're saying makes sense, but I've heard that men tend to stabilize and produce less estrogen on the same dose of testosterone.  This may be because they steadily lose fat due to the higher T or perhaps it is because the body truly normalizes and adjusts.  Don't know, but I've heard this is very common for men taking ample T. 
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: anonymous11 on January 29, 2013, 01:11:54 am
What JackAndy says is how I feel my levels will go down. If I was not taking T shots, then my guess it would balance after I stop 6-12 months later from initially starting Armidex. Taking T shot will change things. My gut feeling was I had higher than normal readings from the beginning and with T shot I am a really high converter to estrogen. If I need to T shots indefinitely then what happens if I am a high converter due to shots? Time will tell once the experimentation happens. I will wait to do this until my 12th month on Armidex.
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: PeakT on January 29, 2013, 03:39:10 am
What JackAndy says is how I feel my levels will go down. If I was not taking T shots, then my guess it would balance after I stop 6-12 months later from initially starting Armidex. Taking T shot will change things. My gut feeling was I had higher than normal readings from the beginning and with T shot I am a really high converter to estrogen. If I need to T shots indefinitely then what happens if I am a high converter due to shots? Time will tell once the experimentation happens. I will wait to do this until my 12th month on Armidex.

fyi:  What I am hearing has to do with men on HRT and on higher levels like you are. 
Title: Re: RESULTS of my first month on HCG mono at 1,500 IU 3x week
Post by: JackAndy on January 29, 2013, 05:02:35 am
My gut feeling was I had higher than normal readings from the beginning and with T shot I am a really high converter to estrogen. If I need to T shots indefinitely then what happens if I am a high converter due to shots? Time will tell once the experimentation happens. I will wait to do this until my 12th month on Armidex.

It also depends on your estrogen sensitivity. If you're asymptomatic, some doctors would say don't worry about it and only treat it if it becomes symptomatic. Typically though, there are symptoms that go with an elevated estrogen level and we want to get rid of those as soon as possible when they happen. But yeah you have to take shots and pills forever.