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Messages - JonnyV

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1
It IS the Clomid completely.  I started gaining weight instantly when starting it.  After 3 weeks, I went off it for good as I could not take it anymore.  I then started trt and it did the same thing.  I finally decided I would rather have low t than be fat, so I went off all of it 2 months ago.  I am going to go the natural route of raising t, but I got to get all of this fat off my body first which is turning into a huge challenge.  I personally gained 16 pounds between Clomid and trt, and that was within 4 months.

Damn so you had a very similar experience. Are you sure it was fat and not muscle? And what natural methods are you using?

2
I put on some weight from Clomid. It's not just you. The good thing about weight is that time and work is all it takes to get rid of it.

Clomid is great for fertility, but it sucks for TRT. I was on it for almost a year. I went back to testosterone, and I feel pretty good.

My advice: drop the Clomid and move on to testosterone. Life is better on this side of the tracks.

Thanks for adding your datapoint. Did you lose the weight when you got on testosterone?

3
I totally agree with Joe Sixpack.

Clomid usually starts off making people feel wonderful but then, the E2 effect takes over and your estrodial levels go through the roof.

One of the main symptoms of high estradiol in a man is water retention.

So Clomid is "indirectly" causing your water retention, which is likely leading to weight gain.

My personal succes on Clomid was dropping to 12.5 eod after starting out as high as 50mg per day.

Clomid is a hard drug to maintain stable estrogen levels.  If it works, it works at a low dose.  Anastrozole and Clomid were the worst combination of my life and I never felt worse, after never feeling better for my first week on Clomid.  Within a few months, I switched to testosterone enanthate injections, much easier to manage and I never looked back.

In retrospect, I may have given more time to my 12.5mg eod regiment but I got impatient and wanted to feel good.

Thanks Chris, I appreciate the feedback and anectdotes. I am willing to start 12.5mg EOD for now. I will run it by my doctor to make sure he agrees. I hope a lot of this is water weight as you said and I can lose it fast.

I am considering moving to straight SubQ injections, I am sick of taking a drug and compromising my health, when I should just get the real thing.

4
I agree with you that a 50lb gain is likely not from diet alone.  I suspect that the estrogenic effects of Clomid have caused some of this and it is probably water retention.  I have heard Dr. Chrisler say that when he gets guys with estrogen issues controlled properly that they will lose scads of water weight in no time at all. 

If I were you, I'd try reducing the Clomid dose, taking 12.5mg every other day.  You may be able to retain the T levels but drop some of the estrogenic effects.  Alternately, what does your doc think about using more anastrazole?
Thanks for the reply and the confirmation that this can't just be diet. I feel like I am going crazy haha.

It might be estrogen - my estrogen was high for the first year while taking Clomid. The last two readings I got were around 15-16 (will look up the exact numbers later), so it's looking pretty low at the moment. I can always get retested though. Because of the low estrogen, my doctor advised not to take anastrazole or DIM.

I can try 12.5 Clomid every other day, I just worry that my T will drop significantly. Right now I am sitting between 500-600, so halving the dose might have a huge change. But it's something I can try.

5
Hey everyone,

Anyway, I started using Clomid in various doses in 2016 when I started to have low T problems. When I started using it, it was with Anastrazole and DIM, and my T shot up to 900 ng/dL from around 300. I felt really good, libido was awesome, energy good, really had no well-being negatives, except that I noticed that my weight was climbing up really fast. It was noticeable because my clothes stopped fitting and I had to buy new ones.

Luckily, I had a DEXA scan from before starting Clomid. In just 10 months, I had gained 25 lbs. About 8 lb were muscle and the rest fat. This is with minimal change in diet and low to moderate exercise, which was the same as before. After speaking with my doctor, we decided to try removing the anastrazole and DIM, and sticking with 12.5mg Clomid ED.

It's been almost 2 years since that change and I still have been gaining weight. I kept track via DEXA scans. From before I started Clomid to now, I have gained 50 lbs! 50 lbs! Now, my diet recently has not been good and I have only been at the gym 4-5 times a month, but these kinds of numbers are just insane. I tried for 2 years now to get my weight down but it has been an uphill battle. Like I said, my diet for the past year has not been great, but it also has not been very bad either. This sort of weight gain is outrageous and in my opinion very unlikely due to changes in behavior alone.

I don't want to blame Clomid completely, but I would think that a successful T replacement protocol would help on the body composition side as well, and not make things worse. I am not sure what to do now. Part of me wants to try injections. Has anyone else gone through the same thing with Clomid? It seemed like others had experienced similar things. Secondly, what do you think I should do regarding my protocol?

Here is a summary of all of my DEXA scans over the last 2 years: https://imgur.com/a/UpvcMGC

6
I agree with Cataceous, 25mg ED is the most I would do. I am doing 12.5mg ED right now and it's working pretty well.

7
Holy crap! This is unreal. I randomly logged into the site to see what was going on, and am genuinely saddened to hear this.

Peak played a huge part in fixing my health issues a couple of years ago. When I was going through my issues and posting here, Peak was always there to help and didn't ask for a thing in return. The guy was a true angel and I made sure to tell him in PMs how fond of him I was. Because of him, I found Defy and fixed many of my issues.

Nelson, please let his family know that he helped me and countless other guys get through some of the hardest parts of their lives. May he rest in peace and I hope his son has a speedy recovery.

8

Hey, good to hear from you again but wish it was under better circumstances...

Hey, some guys feel better on TRT, some on Clomid - it's really hard to predict.  So going to TRT + HCG may work great for you - hard to say

Question for you, though, on the Clomid:  if you felt pretty good on the Clomid/Anastrazole/DIM but gained weight, then I would necessarily throw that out.  There are quite a few things that explain the weight gain:  higher estradiol that you thought;  consuming more calories than you thought; a slowdown of the thyroid. 

Another question:  have you done your due diligence and pulled LH, prolactin, DHT, DHEA-S, progesterone and a 3 point cortisol?

And now I want to say the most important thing:  do NOT stop until you figure out what is causing that insulin resistance.  This is very likely why you don't feel good.  I will say say that that falling HDL is a sign your LDL-P is going up which greatly increases your risk of adding plaque and then your problems are going to get exponentially worse as the months go by.  (Prediabetes drives into pattern B lipids - read about it - every guy should - if you have not.)

What helps insulin resistance?  How you eat; how much you eat; exercise; weight loss; increasing testosterone.  However, if you go too high with testosterone, you can drive down HDL. 

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_HDL.aspx

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Metabolic_Syndrome.aspx

Hey bud,

Thanks for the response. Here are some comments:

-After taking Clomid/Anastrazole/DIM is when I noticed my HDL drop a lot. So maybe starting that protocol again and being very stringent on diet/exercise could work, but I am worried about gaining even more weight. I would have to buy a whole new wardrobe lol. I have stopped in an attempt to see if my blood tests look better and I can lose weight again. I am worried that I will get headaches and/or anxiety again, but I know that getting back on Clomid will relieve those symptoms, so I am willing to give it a shot. What do you think?

-Estradiol stayed exactly the same on the sensitive test, but of course I know Clomid itself has estrogenic effects. Maybe it was a thyroid thing but my thyroid numbers looked decent. Latest IGF-1 looked fine at 151 ng/mL. LH was fine at 7.6 mIU/mL. DHT and DHEA-S looked good. Prolactin was a bit low at 3.9 ng/mL. 4 point cortisol looked fine.

Right now, I am off of everything and will see how that affects me. I'll also read your links, thanks Peak, you're the man!




9
Hey guys,

Long time no chat. I have been busy working but have been meaning to come back and update you guys. Here is a quick reminder of the events of the last year:

-Had super low T, decided to start Clomid/Anastrazole/DIM. T skyrocketed. Symptoms got a lot better but I gained a good amount of weight very quickly (between 25-30lbs) without heavy changes in exercises or diet. It was about 1/3 muscle and 2/3 fat as confirmed with DEXA scan.

-I switched to only Clomid, which has been fine (but not feeling as good as when I was on Clomid/Anastrazole/DIM). My weight has somewhat stabilized but losing weight is still an issue, despite using diets that in the past have made me lose weight.

-After getting blood tests, I seem to be somewhat insulin resistant. These results include high fasting insulin, low HDL, etc. Before any treatments I had an HDL of between 55-60, but now it is in the 30s. A lot of my blood tests are out of whack ever since starting treatment.

I am heavier than I have been in the last 7 years, my subjective feeling is just ok, and I am kind of just tired of feeding synthetic compounds into my body that give me relief from some symptoms but may be contributing to other issues. Every time I have tried to come off Clomid over the last few months, I will feel fine for a few days and then I will start to get headaches. I imagine this is some sort of withdrawal effect from my T lowering? I stopped this week on Monday, let's see what happens.

Anyway, I am not sure what to do. I am heavily considering T+HCG, and storing sperm as a back up plan in cases I have fertility issues. I am happy to elaborate on anything, i just wanted to not make this a monster post.

10
I don't have any input on this. Just curious if you guys have seen any studies that show the reduction in mortality by using statins (or even red rice yeast extract).

I am not a fan of statins and actually have a great warning page:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/statins.aspx
Nice write up!

11
DHT can be raised directly via transdermal DHT, or also pretty efficiently via transdermal testosterone. However, your number will presumably go up when you simply get your total testosterone back to the 700s ng/dL.

PeakT discusses low prolactin here: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Low_Prolactin.aspx
Thanks dude. I will discuss all of this with Dr. Saya.

12
I don't have any input on this. Just curious if you guys have seen any studies that show the reduction in mortality by using statins (or even red rice yeast extract).

13
I have been on several Clomid protocols in the past. I do not think it ever caused anxiety or depression, but I did have some unusual bouts of apathy. It also can mess with your libido.

As Peak said, get tested and post your numbers here. We are here to help - hang in there!

14

Ouch!  Sorry to see those numbers.  A few comments:

--The low DHT can mean low libido as I'm sure you know.  Of course, it will ramp up if you get your testosterone back up.

--I have never heard of CDG getting in the way of Clomid.  If it does, it would be through some kind of an indirect route as far as I know.

--I think a more likely explanation is that some guys just get a "Clomid fade" after X months.  I've seen this quite a few times on the forum where their testosterone levels will begin to taper off for a given dose.  I'm not sure if upping the dose helps.

--Low prolactin is often associated with insulin resistance, so you might want to pull some #s to see if that is the case:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Low_Prolactin.aspx

I cover some of the other causes in this link as well as the standard symptoms.

Yes I am aware of the DHT. I believe that is why Dr. Saya recommended I get the test done. I wish I had previous numbers to test against.

Ok, it seems like the CDG theory may not have any legs. I couldn't think of any other change I made - with Clomid, Dr. Saya and I both suspected my E2 would go up. I have no idea why it's so low, but for now I will stop taking any AI or CDG, just in case. I do also wonder if there is a Clomid fade that I am experiencing, which would be the first time I've noticed this effect.

Thanks for the link, Peak. I do think I have some level of insulin resistance. My fasting insulin is much higher than before and I still have trouble losing weight (although my diet/exercise have not been perfect admittedly, but definitely not bad). I also went up a bit in A1c from 4.7 to 5.2, now back to 5.0.

The weight gain and the high fasting insulin started when I began the Clomid/Anastrazole/DIM combo. Do you think there is a plausible causality here? I found this article claiming aromatase inhibition can cause insulin resistance in healthy men:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4870856/

Are there any treatment options for low DHT and low Prolactin? I am inching closer and closer to just doing injections and giving T+HCG a shot.

15
It's true that CDG can have some effect on all of the steroid hormones, but the examine.com article makes it sound as though you'd need a huge dose to make much difference, like ten times what you were taking.

Quote
...
However, a problem occurs when humans take this as an oral supplement. Although it appears to be safe even at high doses, very high doses are required for its effects (100mg/kg minimum, near maximal effects at 200mg/kg) and this would even only theoretically assure some protection against toxins that are glucuronidated. If a toxin is subject to another detoxification pathway (such as conjugation by glutathione) then Glucaric acid will serve no benefit.
...
Furthermore, all steroid hormones in the body (testosterone, estrogen, DHEA, etc.) are also glucuronidated. If using an oral dose that reduces the toxin, these hormones will also all be reduced for a short time.
...

Thanks for posting that, very interesting. I really have no other explanation for my E2 being so low.

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