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Messages - davie12

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 How did your glycine experiment go?

No change.  My IGF-1 is always the same.  However, I have not really been diligent with IGF-1 so I need to repeat the experiemtn.  I made a note about it, but it will probably be a couple of weeks.

What is your IGF-1 level?

Isn't this score one of many pieces in a larger picture to accurately diagnose cardiac function? It should be looked at along with bp, ecg, crp number, cholesterol, heart rate, etc.

Definitely partied a little too "hard" during college occasionally , but that was years ago. These problems are all more recent, and only happened after I got into really good shape, and started training more intensely. Trust me, TRT is my last option. I'm still working hard at implementing every strategy I can to get things better naturally. The only other thing I can think of is when I was 18 I took some OTC ripped tabs that turned out to be something illegal, and were banned. After researching I can't figure out exactly what compound it was, but I know it wasn't good. However, that was almost 9 years ago, and I've had a crazy libido my whole life up until now, and definitely no problems with energy like I have now.

I've seen this exact type of scenario in several discussion threads like this. Someone takes something a few years ago, and now they have all kinds of symptoms. In fact, Dr. Dach writes about people who take MDMA at rave parties in their 20s who are now in their 30s with a damaged axis. Normally, people like you are a candidate for Clomid or other boosting substances.

BTW, you aren't related to the famous Canadian director David Kronenberg, are you?

I was just curious if there is any information you are leaving out of your story. Your bloodwork consistently show very low FSH (ie. 1'ish) and LH that's higher but still sub-optimal. Every time I read a story of a guy in his 20s who has that kind of bloodwork pattern he eventually mentions that he either took MDMA (ecstasy), a prohormone or some other powerful medication that altered his endocrine system. Incidentally, though, your testosterone and free T are lowish, but not so horribly low that you need to resort to TRT. They really need a nudge upwards through natural means rather than hormone replacement.

I believe this analysis is more "effect" than "cause". The origin of this imbalance seems to come from adrenal gland dysfunction causing imbalance in aldosterone and subsequently these downstream renal related issues.

I am stopping clomid after a very successful run with it to see if my body reboots T production. I am in week 4 from stopping it, and I feel terrible. For those of you who have stopped clomid, did you have the symptoms below? I'm trying to figure out if it's the clomid or if I have other issues I need to get looked at. The timing is quite suspicious as all of these have started recently:

- Lost 10 lbs (needed to, but it happened way too quickly)
- Possible stomach ulcer? Having to aggressively use acid reducers for first time in my entire life.
- Exhaustion and fatigue
- My whole freaking body aches as if I had the flu, specifically my back.
- Allergies seem to be more aggressively affecting me

I generally feel very run down and feeble. I go in for labs next week and will be curious as to my levels. This feels similar, but much worse, than I felt when starting this treatment. I wonder if my T/E2 are completely tanked...

If you have other endocrine issues such as elevated TSH (even if its not horribly high), your body likely won't reset its T level higher. The thyroid and adrenal systems support healthy T levels. If they aren't optimized, you are jump starting an engine that isn't tuned up.

After 2 weeks on Clomid I've never felt better!
Muscle aches, Brian fog, ED issues all MUCH better.

The only complaint I can give my dr is my libido is extremely low.
(Like non existent) but morning wood is MUCH better.....

Now the disturbing part: test results

T 182.    240-1048
FSH .5     1.6-11.0
LH .1     1.3-7.2
Estrogen 28.5     0-40

What the hell gives??
I should be miserable on these #'s!!
What could Clomid be doing to make me "feel this good"?
I was expecting a high LH on Clomid...... WTF??

You've been shut down for several years on exogenous T. And being 48-49 yrs old makes it even worse. I'm not sure what your expectation was, but bodybuilders who are shut down for a long time often post the same results...very low LH, T, etc. Even after months of Clomid, Nolvadex, etc. they often don't get very good numbers. Age is a part of it. The elasticity of the endocrine system is better the younger one is. If you've been on Clomid for a short time, there might be some exogenous T left in your system. So the 182 ng/dl might be a combination of a little remaining exogenous T combined with a little produced naturally. It takes a while for symptoms to appear. If you're at low nos for several months, I'll bet some of the those other low T symptoms will come back.

Dr. Saya,

Thanks for your insights on this. This is a topic of more than theoretical interest for those of us that that get very good but not perfect results from Clomid alone and are looking for a tweak to get close to perfection without the invasiveness and additional experimentation/tuning required for full-blown TRT.
I'm curious if you have seen people who see sexual performance improvement on HCG Monotherapy who were previously on clomid only with LH at top of  range (e.g. 8)?  I understand that in theory more of an LH analog should not be of benefit, but I would be curious what you have seen in practice.


For another study along the same lines you can see the following link, although it looks from my reading like the results could be explained by the differences in the initial values. It does appear that shutdown was avoided for FSH, however almost all the rise in T could be explained by the Tamoxifen. They basically used Tamox instead of Clomid and a lowish dose of Andriol (another daily in/out oral testosterone) and found that FSH and Testosterone all maintained at mildly elevated levels).


Folks who are strongly secondary on initial presentation and do well objectively on Clomid (as you mentioned with a robust LH/FSH response), but may struggle subjectively (mood, libido, etc) are often the victims of direct E2 effect or the combined direct E2 + zuclomiphene estrogenic effect - those folks typically do better with continued Clomid at LOWER doses (lower zuclomiphene burden) and/or mild aromatase inhibition/DIM/calcium d glucarate...or *may* have a better subjective response with HCG monotherapy but at the expense of suppressing endogenous LH much like TRT.

Folks on Clomid might (on a case by case basis dependent on the sensitivity of HPTA negative feedback) be able to very minimally SUPPLEMENT (vs replacement) with a very low dose of testosterone without suppressing endogenous LH/FSH. The key here is LOW dose and that threshold of kicking in HPTA suppression will be different for everyone and likely, to a certain extent, dependent on the underlying Clomid dosage they are taking.

To be honest, for most, managing a testosterone regimen ALONE or managing a Clomid regimen ALONE are complicated enough...multiply that complexity x 2 for a combo regimen of both concurrently and the likelihood of success isn't promising.

It appears the study ergo-log study Festus posted and Dr. Saya's clinic experience are in conflict with each other. The ergo-log study seems to indicate that fertility/FSH is preserved while on exogenous T. However, there is something I'm wondering. I'm not sure if this would make a difference, but if someone were not taking any form of exogenous T and then the Clomid (or Tamoxifen) were introduced and then lastly a form of exogenous T, would the ultimate result be different from someone who has been on T for a long time who then takes Clomid (or Tamoxifen) along with T? The reason I ask is that although I've never taken T, I've read many bodybuilding forums where men have taken straight T (at very high doses) for 2 or 3 years or longer and then drop off of T and start Clomid and can't realize very good FSH or natural T levels (ie. numbers in the 200s, 300s, etc) even after many months or over a year. It's as though the endocrine system's natural production ability is shut down in such a powerful way that natural stimulants such as Clomid, Nolvadex, etc only have limited results. That's why I wonder if one needs more context in to the individual cases of the Greek study and Dr Saya's individual patients.

I'm not sure if you meant to say this in your post? High ACTH is usually translates into high cortisol, not LOW cortisol. That is the typical pattern when some stressor puts the adrenal gland on overdrive. Nevertheless, a cortisol reading of 13 as you posted is actually pretty normal, especially if it's a mid-day reading. However, even for a morning reading, it wouldn't be so bad.

I've never heard this theory of the relationship of cortisol to cholesterol you presented. However, I did a google search as I was curious about it. I've read here and there that most sources point to high cortisol leading to high cholesterol although I don't have an authority link worth posting to support this notion.

Incidentally, those testosterone reading of 470 total/9.4 free, while not horrible, would probably be low enough for some ED yet possibly high enough for morning wood as you noted.

I've read several stories of men swearing by it. However, there are a lot of other points not considered in this thread. The tincture form of pine pollen is supposed to allow for full absorption into the body. Also, there could be an issue with developing a resistance against the beneficial effects if it is taken too frequently. However, from everything I've read there isn't any shutdown similar to taking exogenous T.

gimme: What were the compounds you mentioned experimenting with in your early 20s while bodybuilding (ie. in an earlier post)? Decadurabolin, Winstrol or some pro-hormone?

Also, the high libido/morning wood could be from elevating DHT (more common with topical cream/gel).

K: On a 1-10 scale (10 being best) how do you feel when you wake up in the morning?

10=excellent/high energy/high cortisol/ready to attack the day
1=close to adrenal failure/Addisonian crisis

Say 5=barely functional but enough to get through the day's activities

I was just trying to understand better as you mentioned taking a leave of absence.

Did you ever take any prescription medication in adolescence? Anything at all? Anti-depressants, ritalin, acne medication, etc.

I was on Paxil from 13 til 21...would this have had a big effect? I was also on Adderall, but that was much briefer (only four years), and I often would not use it if I didn't need to (i.e. a quiet day at home).

There is quite a bit written about SSRIs (ie. Paxil, for example). Without going into the scientific mechanism by which they affect a slew of things going on in your brain & endocrine system, suffice it to say that it likely caused your current problems. Many of these drugs are endocrine disruptors and often improve one problem but create another.

If you've had these symptoms for 9-10 years, then you didn't really finish puberty with normal high testosterone one would have at that age. There is still endocrine system development up to mid-20s. That is why guys sometimes start to grow chest hair in their 20s. Some guys don't really need to shave daily until their in their 20s.

Re: your bloodwork, your Prolactin, while technically within range, isn't ideal. It really should be like 4 or something close to that. Also, your TSH of 2.8 shows your thyroid is working harder to release proper levels of substrate thyroid hormones. Your free T3 is actually excellent, though.

I'm surprised about the complaint of excess belly fat, as your metabolic panel shows some good things...ie. low Tri, etc. combined with previous comment about free T3 which usually results in complaints of lethargy, belly fat, etc.

Did you ever take any prescription medication in adolescence? Anything at all? Anti-depressants, ritalin, acne medication, etc.

That Epstein-Barr point you made was sort of brushed over quickly. There is a tight correlation from everything I've read between Hashimoto's/thyroid problems and EB virus. That could potentially be the entire cause of your problems.

However, you are correct in your overall point that the 3 systems have to be all working properly: thyroid, adrenals, gonadal. I've yet to see anyone post bloodwork where they had healthy natural testosterone levels with poor or mediocre thyroid and/or adrenal function. It's almost as though if one of those doesn't work, they all don't work. They all support each other.

I would pursue that EB antibody channel more if I were you.

Yes, I will, and I think you're right.  The only thing is the research for treatment is *slim* when it comes to EBV.  I can't find any books on the subject.  At the same time, I have a pretty tight case, I think, for the adrenals being the culprit, and in the past (before starting TRT) felt moderately better just by trying 50 mcg of levothyroxine.  Also, I have no problems with thyroid antibodies, meaning no Hashimotos, meaning thyroid problems could possibly fit a low adrenal situation (i.e., low adrenals causing thyroid problems) given that 90% of hypothyroid cases, apparently, are related to autoimmune things, and I've only heard of EBV influencing antibodies for thyroid.  You know any different?

Do you have any literature on treating EBV?
i'm not asking you to look stuff up (I can do that); just any good stuff you already know about.

I'm sorry, but I don't have any specific references or literature I can point you to. This is just something I've read about here and there. And now with cujet's story you have more to substantiate this point. Taking this discussion a level higher and more big picture, it seems like any chronic viral condition seems to have the same hormone devastation effect. Think about HIV for a minute (even though it is not EB, it is a viral load that the body's immune system has to deal with). Every single source I've read points to testosterone levels that are decimated even with drugs that reduce the viral load substantially. I believe Nelson Vergel is a good example of this. Also, if you recall Charlie Sheen's interview with Matt Lauer when he came out with his HIV diagnosis, he points to horrible symptoms of night sweats, massive migraine headaches and a slew of other low T symptoms. He is on TRT even with the reduced viral load and HIV "cocktail" drugs. The point seems to be that the endocrine system doesn't like any form of instability...ie. fighting  chronic conditions such as viruses, autoimmune diseases, Crohn's, or leaky guy/digestive problems. The hormonal channels pay the price when the body is in this state.

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