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Messages - davie12

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[MODERATOR SPLIT FROM HERE: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=9015.0 ]

That Epstein-Barr point you made was sort of brushed over quickly. There is a tight correlation from everything I've read between Hashimoto's/thyroid problems and EB virus. That could potentially be the entire cause of your problems.

However, you are correct in your overall point that the 3 systems have to be all working properly: thyroid, adrenals, gonadal. I've yet to see anyone post bloodwork where they had healthy natural testosterone levels with poor or mediocre thyroid and/or adrenal function. It's almost as though if one of those doesn't work, they all don't work. They all support each other.

I would pursue that EB antibody channel more if I were you.

Interesting about the prolactin. I don't have PFS but Ive actually never had a prolactin level below 10. Mine hovers around 10-15. I have noticed that after ejaculation it takes a lot longer to recharge my libido....

That's the classic symptom of high prolactin...ie. very long refractory period after ejaculation.

K: Very interesting concept. In the thousands of threads I've read over the past 3 or so years on this forum and others, I've seen a handful of true primary guys, usually guys who had an undescended testicle at birth or mumps orchitis. There was one guy who used to post regularly on a forum I used to read. He was able to use HCG to get his one testicle producing decent levels of T...numbers like 600, 700, etc. His bloodwork showed high LH & FSH even with the HCG. I believe I've always seen guys with one testicle who post bloodwork virtually always have super high FSH and high LH. From everything I've read, the one remaining testicle is supposed to make up for the missing one, but the bloodwork never seems to corroborate that notion.

Anyway, my anecdotal observation, even with limited sample size, seems to support the concept you're proposing.

The question posed in this thread is like trying to find a "one size fits all" answer to a complex question. For example, someone could complain that his arm hurts. It could be a muscle pull, a nerve problem, a sprain, broken bone, or a circulatory problem related to a heart condition.

Usually, with regard to testosterone and erectile function, it can be isolated to a hormone problem if the person in question has the usual symptoms that go along with low testosterone...ie. low libido (the most significant), listlessness, possible insomnia, metabolic problems, lack of morning erections.

Nocturne...I was wondering if you have been getting morning erections even at that lower T level? Also, while taking the Clomid have you been doing explosive sprinting, carb backloading, getting good solid sleep, etc...ie. all those other things that can enhance Clomid's effects.

davie12... what do you mean "all those other things that can enhance Clomid's effects."

"all those other things that can enhance Clomid's effects."
= supporting the other endocrine systems such that the effect of natural T boosting is optimized. Examples: exercising to increase resting metabolic rate, supporting thyroid/adrenal systems, matching carb intake with exercise to more efficiently utilize glucose, etc, etc.

Nocturne...I was wondering if you have been getting morning erections even at that lower T level? Also, while taking the Clomid have you been doing explosive sprinting, carb backloading, getting good solid sleep, etc...ie. all those other things that can enhance Clomid's effects.

I was just curious about something. Is this your main list of symptoms: low libido/ED/sexual dysfunction & anxiety/inability to handle stress?

You are going in a ton of different directions, and I wonder what your thought process is exactly? Your signature has shown since October '14 that you've gone through various treatments like a revolving door and have never even given one protocol a fighting chance. You've done Clomid, HCG, TRT, etc. and have done them all in relatively short intervals. How is anything supposed to work with that approach? Also, 50% of any permanent hormonal change is going to be related to diet/exercise in addition to other treatments, and there is very little mention of that except for increasing calories in general. Do you do sprints and body weight exercises? I'm technically old enough to be your father, and I'm doing all this stuff. I don't say this to brag but to be helpful.

One thing is really curious, though...You keep mentioning cortisol. Your bloodwork in your signature doesn't really show low cortisol (even for a morning reading). Look at these numbers:
Cortisol, Serum AM (4.0-22.0 mcg/dL): 11.1  --> 9.8-->24.0-->17.6--> 12.7---> 11-->13.3--->8.5--->24.6--->15--->18.5--->19.2---12.9-->16---->11.9
Even the ones that are the lowest on your bloodwork history are not going to be producing horrible low cortisol symptoms. Maybe you'll feel more tired and unrefreshed than normal with readings of 9.8 or 8.5, but it's not as though you're going to feel like a zombie or anything like that. And most of the numbers are pretty good anyway. You don't really mention typical low cortisol symptoms in any of your posts. The typical "underperforming" adrenal gland low cortisol reading will be numbers like 2 or 3 or 4 with symptoms of feeling like one ready to go to bed even after sleeping for 7-8 hours. This isn't a subtle feeling or symptom. The tiredness would hit you like a ton of bricks and render you non-functional for anything...school, work, etc.

Davie can correct me if I am wrong, but most of the guys on HCG Monotherapy seem to go for a little lower testosterone levels in order to keep the estradiol reasonable.  They are about half of where you are at.

Yes, that's exactly right. It seems like when you start injecting amounts over 1,000iu/injection, there's definitely going to be a heavy aromatization variable to deal with.

I'm new here and hoping to get some insights from members. I'm a 44 year old male with a hx of secondary hypogonadism diagnosed about 15 years age. I am being treated by a endocrinologist who specializes in male hormone disorders. For the first 5 years I was on 5 g androgel. I then wanted to have kids (had 4) and was placed on hcg. I was titrated to a dose of 2600 mgs, 3x per week. I was on that dose for about 8 years. For the past two years my dose was lowered to 2200 mgs, 3x per week as my total testosterone levels were rising (above 1,000) and my hematocrit has been high (~55).

About 4 months ago my labs came back high again: total test was 1035 and free was 252. Hematocrit was high too (around 55 again) and my E2 was tested for the first time and it was 92! Repeated the labs and it was the same. Dose has been lowered to 2,000 mgs, 3x week.

Doctor is talking about lowering the dose and isn't sure why the testosterone levels have been steadily rising. I'm wondering whether I should I just go back to Angrogel or should ask for an aromatase inhibitor (but that won't do anything for my hematocrit). Has anyone else been of HCG this long?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

That's amazing. This is the first time I've read of someone using that high a dose for so long. I assume you meant "iu" rather than "mg" as far as units of measure. With that high a dose you are taking far more than you need and are probably stimulating your testicles to maximum capacity. If you use less HCG and an AI you could solve all your other problems...Hematocrit, high E2, etc. I was wondering how you feel with your testosterone at that high a level along with such high E2? Do you have erectile dysfunction with such high E2?

I read that link.

One thing that I did not understand:  What was the "big deal" about the mother being present at the appointment?  Yes, it's rather "odd".  But - from a medical standpoint - why was it significant?  Thanks.

They might've been making the point that he was being "emasculated". After all, competition, accomplishment, not being "babied", etc (ie. non physiological factors) are also supposed to be a factor in testosterone levels.

Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health / Re: Hcg 500IU -> LH?
« on: December 01, 2015, 12:15:42 am »
Is 500IU hcg equal to a specific amount of LH or does it change from man to man?

fyi:  This is not LH, but does activate that receptor.  See our other thread.

I believe he's asking what the LH equivalent might be from man to man?.....ie. is 500iu = 4.5.....is 750iu = 5 LH reading, etc? Of course, the testosterone yield from a given LH will differ from man to man depending on other things going on in his endocrine system.

An older male would have little to no use for HCG given his mostly dead leydig cells.

The pregnenolone production wouldn't be of use? Or direct supplementation would be preferred?

My sense is that there wouldn't be much production given the lower number of leydig cells, which means older males would have to supplement with pregnenolone and DHEA to get roughly what HCG and Clomid offer the younger male.


Crisler has spoken of these effects and the various metabolism involved. He has a lot of "old guy" patients and (if I'm not mistaken) some are benefiting from HCG.  Lobbing a post to ATM might be productive.

Also:  Leydig cell death? Link please. Leydig cells seem to suffer age related loss of sensitivity to LH stimulation but the number of L cells you start with tends to be the number of L cells you end with.

Kierkegaard is correct on this point:

I didn't question the logic of the 1st post, as it looked pretty well thought out. However, my understanding was that cortisol is regulated by CRH and ACTH, the former being the hormone which stimulates the pituitary release of ACTH. Of course, CRH is increased during times of physical & mental stress. I had never heard of the LH/FSH connection but was leaving my mind open to a possible relationship.

Great info, Peak.  Maybe I'll just look into supplementing with HC...;)

I'd imagine going HCG solely for fertility reasons for a year or two vastly decreases what are very likely already very low odds of cancer, but still...

It's a matter of putting this in perspective.

1) Lots of guys on this and other forums use HCG. I've read tons of threads and have yet to read of anyone diagnosed with cancer with a causal relationship to HCG.
2) Also, Clomid is used extensively. There are some complaints of side effects. Most of the time they resolve. I haven't read of anything absolutely horrific happening.
3) Exogenous testosterone is used by many. Most say it resolves many of their problems. There are also well-known risks...prostate, blood thickening, etc.

There are risks with taking any path. Probably the closer one is to as natural as possible to normalize hormones the least amount of risks. However, for some natural methods may not be enough.

It's a question of using any of these protocols responsibly and taking no more than is needed to bring one's body to a healthy hormonal balance.

Great commentary Davie as always.  My concern goes really just past that though.  I have always been troubled by this post:


"Hey Peak -

Just to clarify, the angioleiomyoma presented when I was tapering off of Test Cyp, and began taking HCG about a year and a half or two years ago.  The head and neck specialist was intrigued by the case, as it is extraordinarily rare and he had never seen a tumor like this.  After doing some research on his own, he apparently found a few other cases where people taking both HCG and PDE5 inhibitors developed angioleiomyomas. 

Hard to know for sure what caused it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a mixture of it all (Adex at a high dose, Viagra/Cialis, HCG, and maybe even high RBC or hematocrit from T cyp previously). 

Certainly a vivid reminder that all of this is serious business, and why I appreciate the tendency of this community to try to stay on as few meds as possible."

In my case, I don't want to stimulate these kind of growth factors, if that is indeed what HCG does, because this appears to the antithesis of anti-angiogenesis.  If you think about it, this is a placental hormone, right?  So it likely is stimulating growth factors.  I haven't had a chance to research it though.

Thanks for highlighting that thread. Even though that thread discussed a growth on the lip, I recall a couple of years ago when I used HCG that I read about some causal relationship to testicular cancer, but this was something I saw here and there and not in any particular credible source. Something doesn't seem right about vigorously stimulating Leydig cells in an unnatural way. Cancers usually form when an errant cell reproduces, and whenever you stimulate tissue growth & activity it would seem to be a breeding ground for a tumor. I believe this is why cancer is often deadly in very young people due to their high metabolism. Now all of what I'm saying is just my personal "semi-scientific" view, so it should be taken with a grain of salt. I ended up using HCG a little over a half a year as a stopgap therapy. In the back of my mind, I was very concerned about re-wiring something the body does naturally for an indefinite amount of time.

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