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Messages - electrify

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Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health / Re: Anhedonic Af
« on: September 17, 2018, 06:57:47 am »
Damn, thats really tough to be going through.

That being said there are definitely people who have gone through this before. You might consider posting at a nootropic forum (r/nootropics). They will probably know more about this than people here cause more of the user base has gone through this sort of stuff.

There was something called BPC-157 talked about on those places but thats a total research chemical.

I think anhedonia is generally more than just HPA axis and hormones by the way.

Im not on any ADs. And my T levels on the last check were around 700 with E2 sens around 40. Ive had normal sexual function at these levels in the past, so don't think its T or E2.

Ive never taken Cabergoline or any other Dopamine agonist.

Generally I am doing well but sexually I notice loss of sensitivity and bad orgasms. Also ED.

My libido is also lower but its not the thing that is most impacted.

Anyways I have a Prolactin of around 20 on the 3-15 range. And yes I did the 48 hours no ejaculation, and fasting for 12 before.

My hormones are generally ok other than that. As in, I have been sexually fine with my current T, E2, DHT etc before. My prolactin used to be around 10. I have no idea what has made it come up so much in the past few months but I have been having issues since July. And had multiple tests done with the first being around 20 and most recent around 19.

Also sometimes I notice that I feel a bit flat after ejaculation. Its a very unnerving feeling like my emotions are numbed out and I am kinda apathetic. Its not a low mood, but its very disturbing. I hope I have not developed POIS or something. I am pretty scared after reading about it.

Anyways how can I fix it besides Dopamine Agonists? Of course I have been here long enough to know about things like Mucuna and Tyrosine but those haven't really worked for me for this.

High E2 can definitely ramp up stress levels but every individual has different tolerance levels to E2, what may cause problems for one maybe the sweet spot for another.

Your protocol of twice daily does seem (to me) unusual as your T levels will remain more elevated for longer meaning a higher conversion to Estrogen, an AI could be helpful.
I know DR Crisler at one point here on the forum mentioned twice daily can be a good thing but I have my doubts especially if you are getting other undesirable symptoms such as panic attacks.

I doubt that DHT will have any negative affects, as has been mentioned it makes you bolder and happier, certainly does in my case (indeed far too mellow!).

Seriouslt man. DHT can make you feel good looking in the mirror even if you aren't that buff or you are skinny like me. Very potent confidence and ANTI-anxiety effects for me. Its too bad that I find the "T cream on scrotum for DHT trick" only works like once a week max for me. If used too much it doesnt seem to work. And I would rather once a week than never have that option or ruin it!  8)

Besides E2 and DHT its also possible that TRT is lowering cortisol too much.

Others have different views on E2, but personally I dont think slightly high E2 is bas. And loweringg DHT is DEFINITELY NOT a good direct solution. And I don't think too high dht is causing abxoety anyways as DHT is quite calmig in my experience. DHT is actually a GABA agonist as well, so increases confidence and can lower anxiety. DHT blockers have disastrous effects.

Now low cortisol on the other hand could possibly cause more anxiety because cortisol is needed to respond to stress well. You should test those levels via saliva and blood test. Often times people who dont do well on TRT/HCG etc have multiple issues not just T.

Sometimes lowering the dose of T is also a way to improve corisol. Im not a doctor or anytbing and just speaking from personal exp. you should talk to your doc

I thought low DHT can lead to symptoms though. DHT is a GABAergic neurosteroid among other things. Gives the alpha male feeling. ...

It is something else to look at, but I still have to question going on TRT at age 24 with otherwise reasonable numbers. I think very low doses of an AI might be considered: this would raise DHT while lowering estradiol.

Interesting to see a free DHT test, but as with free estradiol, maybe we don't know enough yet to use it?

Yea, probably other ways to increase DHT conversion should be tried first. Im just speaking more from experience. My DHT was not as low as OP (was borderline arouns 30) and my T was only slightly lower than OP, with somewhat higher SHBG when I started.

TRT still helped to improve mood, and the occasional scrotal T cream does provide a jump sometimes in libido and confidence.

I don't use an AI. For me I just find high E2 with good DHT doesn't affect me. Its like they work together? Ive used a low dose AI in the past when i had what i thought were high E2 symptoms but my mood really dipped even if the levels were ok. Theres something about it I don't react well to-maybe its lowering CNS E2 and not just blood is a theory I read.

TRT can be used as an "antidepressant" or anti-anxiety too. Just like how sometimes thyroid augmentation is used in depression despite mid range T3 free. Speaking of that. i think if OP has hypothyroid then that is probably a bigger thing anyways.

I think TRT may be a mistake. Both your age and your lab work are counter-indicators. Your calculated free testosterone is 14 ng/dL, which is quite reasonable. Free testosterone is a good measure of how much testosterone you have available to work for you. The reason your total testosterone is not higher is because your SHBG is on the lower side.

What are your symptoms?

If the estradiol test is not based on mass spectrometry (e.g. LC/MS) then it should be redone with one that is. Standard immunoassay-based tests can read high in some individuals. If estradiol is confirmed to be this much (in pg/mL) then perhaps it's high enough relative to testosterone to cause problems. This would be due to the lower SHBG, which would allow free estradiol to be relatively high. A doctor who thought this scenario was causing your symptoms might prescribe micro-doses of an aromatase inhibitor.

Another line of treatment would be with low doses of Clomid. This would be preferred if it's believed the sex hormone levels are causing problems, but not estradiol. Clomid would stimulate more natural testosterone production, and might increase SHBG, which could be useful in your case.

In any case, you need to find a doctor who understands these issues and can direct your treatment accordingly.

I thought low DHT can lead to symptoms though. DHT is a GABAergic neurosteroid among other things. Gives the alpha male feeling.

Now I know Dr Crisler said serum tests aren't the best way to get 5a activity assessed but its a start. 

Btw OP why are you on DIM?

I don't have it myself but I am curious what the latest advances in treatment are. It seems to be quite an interesting condition from hell.

I know that Allopregnanolone as well as DHT get depleted with Fin. This affects the GABA system.

And people do sometimes find low T but if Allo/DHT are affected then how does HRT even help these people? Backfilling Preg doesn't necessarily go to Allo in the CNS where we need it (especially if theres something going on with 5-AR activity)

One thing I also recall reading is that microdose of SSRIs increases Allopregnanolone. Have docs been trying this? What about other depression based (rather than HRT) treatments like Ketamine--have people tried that out?

Do people also need to do psychiatric treatments?

Im curious especially what the Defy docs do nowadays for it.

I also recall reading that even stress alters 5AR activity in MDD, so that PFS may be some kind of artificial induced depression.

Unless SHBG is elevated binding up your bioavailable testosterone, then perhaps you've lost androgen activity, common among PFS guys. A type of receptor damage where the body is unable to process androgens any longer. Some even have a doubling of testosterone numbers and are some of the worst cases.

Dr. Crisler treats men with PFS.

Is the androgen sensitivity theory also true?

I was under the impression that its mostly brain related to Allopregnanolone neurosteroids. I think once the Psychiatric drug Brexanolone comes out (synthetic analog of Allo), PFS may be treatable with that.

Both DHT and Allopregnanolone modulate GABA-A receptors though.

Has Dr Crisler really sucessfully treated PFS patients though? Im curious how and seems like he hasnt posted about it in a while.

Btw, proper psychiatric treatments can ALSO potentially help PFS too due to the link between neurottabsmitters and neurosteroids.

Seems like that is about 500 ng/dL converted, which is "lowish" but it isn't *that* bad. People at these T levels can have some symptoms, but on its own it doesn't really cause very severe stuff. I have been at your levels (400-500 ish pre TRT) and never took Propecia and did not have severe issues.


Propecia does not just impact Testosterone levels. People have your symptoms after Propecia and have totally normal blood T levels.

The latest theory (from what I remember reading) is that it is more related to the brain and neurosteroids. That seems to be what makes the symptoms so hellish. Allopregnanolone in particular, which is responsible for the function of the GABAergic system. Issues with the GABAergic system can cause hellish psychiatric symptoms. Also DHT. You say you have no morning wood (and at that T level you should in theory) but neurotransmitters/neurosteroids affect morning wood as well.

I would say that you should see a doc who is very familiar with the background of PFS.

I do not take DHEA with my TRT. Only pregnenolone backfillig and HCG

Being young I think is the reason my DHEA is fine even on TRT. Or the preg I take makes up for it.

I think its more related to low E2 and/or low DHT as well as neurotransmitters. But low T affects all that.

Penile sensitivity definitely got better with TRT. But I didnt have a *total* numbness down there.

Edit: confused you for another member lol but psych drugs do also affect it if you are on those

What is BPC?

You were under a lot of stress as I recall.  Do you think that was causing some of your issues?

BTW, it's good to hear that you are doing better.

BPC-157 is a peptide I had used for 2 weeks to try to target gut inflammation (and to help some benzo wd symptoms I had-it repairs the GABA and dopamine systems). Some people with problems post-Adderall use also had success. I had mild-moderate success with it. Sometimes it would do nothing other times it gave a mood lift.

I wasn't particularly under a lot of stress besides the stress of having the symptoms which made school more stressful than it needed to be. But over the summer after I graduated I got off benzos and used that.

Just thought I would mention this.

I don't really know how things resolved (getting off benzos definitely helped but other than that).

I have high E2 in the 40s and still lowish cortisol at 12-13 (similar to when zi had symptoms) but I feel good mentally. Even if TRT is responsible for both.

BPC I think also had helped.

But otherwise I do think that hormones don't really need to be "perfect". At one point I did think high E2 (mid 40s) or lowish cort caused symptoms but doesn't seem to be the case now anyways for the most part. Without symptoms, no need to mess with AIs. I don't like the concept anyways cause I am not sure where else they lower E2 (CNS?) making some people not feel right

I do use the scrotal cream to bump DHT (which was lowish a long time ago) and I think DHT is underlooked/maybe can compensate for some other stuff.

Also my pregnenolone/progesterone were near the top of the range. DHEA around 400 as usual.

It can yea.

In my experience HPA axis dysfunction is just one big waiting game tbh. The problem just seemed to resolve with time.

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