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The "S" in SERM stands for "Selective". This means you can have quite different results depending on the type of estrogen receptor. Check out this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Tissue-specific_estrogenic_and_antiestrogenic_activity_of_SERMs
Every SERM listed is agonistic in bone. With SERMS you are not going to experience all the negative side effects of low estrogen. There are still valid concerns, of course. For example, enclomiphene is antagonistic of estrogen receptors at the hypothalamus and other areas of the brain. There is speculation that this could harm libido due to estrogen's important role therein. But it's not clear-cut. Anecdotally some guys, such as myself, maintain or increase libido while using this drug.
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You're gonna have the same end result whether you're blocking production of e or blocking the receptor. I've felt that and it's no fun, extreme joint and muscle pain.

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Testosterone, Hormones and General Men's Health / Re: I'm back.
« Last post by Dr Justin Saya, MD on April 09, 2021, 02:33:46 am »
Happy to see you back Cronos. The human psyche is intriguing. I actually find myself avoiding this forum, to some extent, because it brings sadness back to the surface from Peak’s passing. The fact that two of my fondest “forum pals” (Peak and Dr Crisler) passed within a year of each other has had a real impact on me for sure. I get it.

As an FYI, you can always follow-up early including early labs if things are amiss. Further, you can always follow-up directly with me if needed...though I’m typically booked out a little farther than the rest of my team. All the best my friend.
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What is considered high? My e is always right around 20. That's not high so technically i shouldn't need a serm but I bet I will which might cause low e. I've had low e before and that is no fun at all. I'm beginning to like this protocol less all the time.
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A high level of estradiol in this context is something above the normal physiology of the individual. It's also not a binary situation. As estradiol rises the production of the gonadotropins is increasingly suppressed. And even so, the Royal Medical Center results seem to show that high levels of GnRH overcome the suppressive effects of estradiol at the pituitary. SERMs do not reduce estradiol. Instead they block estradiol at certain receptors, preventing some actions, but allowing others to proceed.

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By the way, I've been on 100mcg of kisspeptin only once a day for a week. My mood has improved, I'm more happy, not an old curmudgeon, and I seem to be more interested in a lot of projects I've been putting off for 6 years now. I do go thru phases where I will take an interest in projects for awhile but then fall back down to the low I'm usually at so time will time. I will try to get labs tomorrow or Friday to check LH and FSH.

 Heres something else weird, something is making me piss a lot more than normal. Because of whatever is going on with my kidneys I could go 6 or 7 hours after my first mornng piss before needing to go again. Now I might go 4 or 5 times during the day alone. Seems like I briefly read that kisspeptin had some kind of effect on the kidneys but I didn't go into it.

Some of the kisspeptin research does mention mood improvements.

A casual reading of kisspeptin's role in kidney function suggests a trend towards greater fluid retention. You wouldn't think this would result in more frequent urination, but maybe it's more complicated than that. It does mean that monitoring blood pressure is a good idea.
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What is considered high? My e is always right around 20. That's not high so technically i shouldn't need a serm but I bet I will which might cause low e. I've had low e before and that is no fun at all. I'm beginning to like this protocol less all the time.

By the way, I've been on 100mcg of kisspeptin only once a day for a week. My mood has improved, I'm more happy, not an old curmudgeon, and I seem to be more interested in a lot of projects I've been putting off for 6 years now. I do go thru phases where I will take an interest in projects for awhile but then fall back down to the low I'm usually at so time will time. I will try to get labs tomorrow or Friday to check LH and FSH.

 Heres something else weird, something is making me piss a lot more than normal. Because of whatever is going on with my kidneys I could go 6 or 7 hours after my first mornng piss before needing to go again. Now I might go 4 or 5 times during the day alone. Seems like I briefly read that kisspeptin had some kind of effect on the kidneys but I didn't go into it.
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I don't have an answer for either question because I don't know how Proviron compares to endogenous androgens with respect to HPTA suppression. If it were the same as testosterone then you'd probably be suppressing your own production by at least 25%. But it's more complicated than that because of factors like its high binding affinity for SHBG and its inability to be aromatized.
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By that you mean that the chances of suppression are low? What dose do you think I should take?
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The bioavailability of Proviron is 3%, which means you're getting about 1.5 mg. I don't know if direct comparisons have meaning, but natural testosterone production is around 5-7 mg, and natural DHT production is less than a milligram.
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For this to work the pituitary must believe that estradiol is not high. SERMs block estradiol at both the pituitary and the hypothalamus.
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. I wouldn't take anything without consulting my doctors first as they have my medical history and of course, they know best.

I wouldn't be relying on the last part of that sentence as it is an exception going on what the consensus is with guys here on TRT or experiencing hormonal related issues and absolutely flies in the face of my own personal experiences with all of the endos and gps I have consulted in the last 6 years.
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