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Author Topic: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size  (Read 6160 times)

Kierkegaard

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Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size
« on: August 19, 2016, 07:02:08 am »
This has been going on for God knows how long, but has been made more apparent probably since starting TRT.  I get random changes in muscle size, and this doesn't seem to correlate with T or E2 levels.  I will literally have reductions in muscle size, usually coinciding with water weight issues.  I've read that problems with muscle tone can be associated with ATP/mitrochondrial issues, but I have no idea what else could be causing this.  Interestingly, I played around with quercetin, which controls mast cell degranulation and allergies, and it was during this few week people that I lost 6-7 pounds of water weight (which was higher than usual during allergy season, perhaps indicating water weight as reflecting inflammation) in these weeks, *but also* had increases in muscle size that were pretty consistent.  So maybe this is an inflammatory thing (I stopped the Q because I thought it was making me more anxious, seeing how it slows down the COMT enzyme, and I'm COMT+/+, but I should give it a go again.)

Any thoughts by anyone?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 10:03:46 pm by Kierkegaard »
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PeakT

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size (Dr Saya?)
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2016, 11:31:03 am »
This has been going on for God knows how long, but has been made more apparent probably since starting TRT.  I get random changes in muscle size, and this doesn't seem to correlate with T or E2 levels.  I will literally have reductions in muscle size, usually coinciding with water weight issues.  I've read that problems with muscle tone can be associated with ATP/mitrochondrial issues, but I have no idea what else could be causing this.  Interestingly, I played around with quercetin, which controls mast cell degranulation and allergies, and it was during this few week people that I lost 6-7 pounds of water weight (which was higher than usual during allergy season, perhaps indicating water weight as reflecting inflammation) in these weeks, *but also* had increases in muscle size that were pretty consistent.  So maybe this is an inflammatory thing (I stopped the Q because I thought it was making me more anxious, seeing how it slows down the COMT enzyme, and I'm COMT+/+, but I should give it a go again.)

Any thoughts by anyone?

(I ask Dr Saya because this is a toughie; sorry about calling you out, doc.)

Hey, K, I'll leave this one up here with Dr. Saya's name in it, but we can't single out Dr. Saya with questions in general.
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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size (Dr Saya?)
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2016, 11:31:03 am »


Dr Justin Saya, MD

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size (Dr Saya?)
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2016, 02:57:39 pm »
This has been going on for God knows how long, but has been made more apparent probably since starting TRT.  I get random changes in muscle size, and this doesn't seem to correlate with T or E2 levels.  I will literally have reductions in muscle size, usually coinciding with water weight issues.  I've read that problems with muscle tone can be associated with ATP/mitrochondrial issues, but I have no idea what else could be causing this.  Interestingly, I played around with quercetin, which controls mast cell degranulation and allergies, and it was during this few week people that I lost 6-7 pounds of water weight (which was higher than usual during allergy season, perhaps indicating water weight as reflecting inflammation) in these weeks, *but also* had increases in muscle size that were pretty consistent.  So maybe this is an inflammatory thing (I stopped the Q because I thought it was making me more anxious, seeing how it slows down the COMT enzyme, and I'm COMT+/+, but I should give it a go again.)

Any thoughts by anyone?

(I ask Dr Saya because this is a toughie; sorry about calling you out, doc.)

Any change of weight and/or muscle size of that magnitude in that short of a time period is almost certainly fluid-related. I've seen some folks report the same with creatine use (gain) and use of diuretics (loss).

As for the root cause...many possibilities including those you mentioned, fluctuations in aldosterone levels, vasopressin, etc, etc.
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euphorixx1

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size (Dr Saya?)
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2016, 06:42:46 pm »
Definitely fluid related.  In order for a muscle to get smaller it would have to atrophy. To get bigger, it would have to undergo some type of hypertrophy.  Neither of which will happen quickly unless something very drastic happened.

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size (Dr Saya?)
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2016, 06:42:46 pm »


Boxcar

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size (Dr Saya?)
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2016, 10:03:09 pm »
Carbs and exercise will both increase muscle fullness.  From what I've read, bodybuilders will prepare for competitions by just eating carbs and flexing every hour or two.

Boosting growth hormone can also increase fullness.

You might want to check out some of the bodybuilding forums.  That's all those guys think about.
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Kierkegaard

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2016, 10:05:59 pm »
Well, I do have low aldosterone and high intracellular potassium (like touching the top of the range), so maybe that has something to do with it. 

Maybe the fluid retention that goes with smaller muscles changes such that the fluid gets better utilized by muscles, which is why I look bigger with less fluid retention or smaller with more fluid retention. 

This one really gets me because it's so weird.  I wonder if supplementing with fludrocortisone would fix the deal.  The only thing with this is that my intracellular (RBC) potassium was so high when I tested it last (serum levels were middling).  Does this mean I have high potassium?  If so, I probably shouldn't screw around with anything that raises aldosterone.  Ugh.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 10:13:11 pm by Kierkegaard »
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Boxcar

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2016, 10:12:21 pm »
Well, I do have low aldosterone and high intracellular potassium (like touching the top of the range), so maybe that has something to do with it. 

Maybe the fluid retention that goes with smaller muscles changes such that the fluid gets better utilized by muscles, which is why I look bigger with less fluid retention or smaller with more fluid retention.

So if you are retaining fluid somewhere other than in the muscles, then maybe this process is stealing fluid from the muscles themselves?

Creatine is supposed to cause fluid retention in the muscles specifically, so maybe that could help counteract this.
Age: 36
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Current Treatment: 50 mg testosterone cypionate IM, twice a week
Low T Symptoms: Chronic pelvic pain, and other neuropathic pain.  Mild anxiety, low energy and low motivation
Meds: Amitriptyline (for pain, not depression), Clonidine (for sleep, not blood pressure)

Kierkegaard

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2016, 03:35:39 am »
Well, I do have low aldosterone and high intracellular potassium (like touching the top of the range), so maybe that has something to do with it. 

Maybe the fluid retention that goes with smaller muscles changes such that the fluid gets better utilized by muscles, which is why I look bigger with less fluid retention or smaller with more fluid retention.

So if you are retaining fluid somewhere other than in the muscles, then maybe this process is stealing fluid from the muscles themselves?

Creatine is supposed to cause fluid retention in the muscles specifically, so maybe that could help counteract this.

And my creatine levels were on the lower end when I got then tested a few years ago. Interesting.

Does anyone know of the methylation cycle affects creatine? I think it does.
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

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Boxcar

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2016, 05:44:48 am »
Well, I do have low aldosterone and high intracellular potassium (like touching the top of the range), so maybe that has something to do with it. 

Maybe the fluid retention that goes with smaller muscles changes such that the fluid gets better utilized by muscles, which is why I look bigger with less fluid retention or smaller with more fluid retention.

So if you are retaining fluid somewhere other than in the muscles, then maybe this process is stealing fluid from the muscles themselves?

Creatine is supposed to cause fluid retention in the muscles specifically, so maybe that could help counteract this.

And my creatine levels were on the lower end when I got then tested a few years ago. Interesting.

Does anyone know of the methylation cycle affects creatine? I think it does.

To be honest, I am not sure if blood creatine levels are related to the supplement.  The supplement definitely makes me gain a few pounds of water weight, but I never noticed the effect in the mirror, as some claim.

But speaking of methylation, there is a methyl donor that could also increase muscle fullness -- Betaine (trimethylglycine).  I have been taking an amino acid supplement that has this, and I do seem to be fuller, including in the morning (when I tend to look shrunken). Granted, this is a giant maybe, since I may just be noticing that my workouts are paying off.  But I will stop using it and see what happens.

Here's some info: https://examine.com/supplements/trimethylglycine/

I don't know anything about this methylation stuff, so maybe this doesn't help you, but I thought I would mention it.
Age: 36
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Current Treatment: 50 mg testosterone cypionate IM, twice a week
Low T Symptoms: Chronic pelvic pain, and other neuropathic pain.  Mild anxiety, low energy and low motivation
Meds: Amitriptyline (for pain, not depression), Clonidine (for sleep, not blood pressure)

Kierkegaard

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2016, 06:07:52 am »
Well, I do have low aldosterone and high intracellular potassium (like touching the top of the range), so maybe that has something to do with it. 

Maybe the fluid retention that goes with smaller muscles changes such that the fluid gets better utilized by muscles, which is why I look bigger with less fluid retention or smaller with more fluid retention.

So if you are retaining fluid somewhere other than in the muscles, then maybe this process is stealing fluid from the muscles themselves?

Creatine is supposed to cause fluid retention in the muscles specifically, so maybe that could help counteract this.

And my creatine levels were on the lower end when I got then tested a few years ago. Interesting.

Does anyone know of the methylation cycle affects creatine? I think it does.

To be honest, I am not sure if blood creatine levels are related to the supplement.  The supplement definitely makes me gain a few pounds of water weight, but I never noticed the effect in the mirror, as some claim.

But speaking of methylation, there is a methyl donor that could also increase muscle fullness -- Betaine (trimethylglycine).  I have been taking an amino acid supplement that has this, and I do seem to be fuller, including in the morning (when I tend to look shrunken). Granted, this is a giant maybe, since I may just be noticing that my workouts are paying off.  But I will stop using it and see what happens.

Here's some info: https://examine.com/supplements/trimethylglycine/

I don't know anything about this methylation stuff, so maybe this doesn't help you, but I thought I would mention it.

Thanks for this.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I'm tolerating methyl donors well.  Interestingly, I tried betaine HCL with pepsin (with other methyl supplements) and got up to four pills and still didn't feel any of the warmth associated with overproduction of stomach acid. 
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PeakT

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2016, 04:33:32 pm »
Well, I do have low aldosterone and high intracellular potassium (like touching the top of the range), so maybe that has something to do with it. 

Maybe the fluid retention that goes with smaller muscles changes such that the fluid gets better utilized by muscles, which is why I look bigger with less fluid retention or smaller with more fluid retention.

So if you are retaining fluid somewhere other than in the muscles, then maybe this process is stealing fluid from the muscles themselves?

Creatine is supposed to cause fluid retention in the muscles specifically, so maybe that could help counteract this.

And my creatine levels were on the lower end when I got then tested a few years ago. Interesting.

Does anyone know of the methylation cycle affects creatine? I think it does.

To be honest, I am not sure if blood creatine levels are related to the supplement.  The supplement definitely makes me gain a few pounds of water weight, but I never noticed the effect in the mirror, as some claim.

But speaking of methylation, there is a methyl donor that could also increase muscle fullness -- Betaine (trimethylglycine).  I have been taking an amino acid supplement that has this, and I do seem to be fuller, including in the morning (when I tend to look shrunken). Granted, this is a giant maybe, since I may just be noticing that my workouts are paying off.  But I will stop using it and see what happens.

Here's some info: https://examine.com/supplements/trimethylglycine/

I don't know anything about this methylation stuff, so maybe this doesn't help you, but I thought I would mention it.

Thanks for this.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I'm tolerating methyl donors well.  Interestingly, I tried betaine HCL with pepsin (with other methyl supplements) and got up to four pills and still didn't feel any of the warmth associated with overproduction of stomach acid.

Be careful with this.  Xrayguy hospitalized himself by going to 7 pills.  Hit him like a freight train.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Kierkegaard

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2016, 10:15:21 pm »
Well, I do have low aldosterone and high intracellular potassium (like touching the top of the range), so maybe that has something to do with it. 

Maybe the fluid retention that goes with smaller muscles changes such that the fluid gets better utilized by muscles, which is why I look bigger with less fluid retention or smaller with more fluid retention.

So if you are retaining fluid somewhere other than in the muscles, then maybe this process is stealing fluid from the muscles themselves?

Creatine is supposed to cause fluid retention in the muscles specifically, so maybe that could help counteract this.

And my creatine levels were on the lower end when I got then tested a few years ago. Interesting.

Does anyone know of the methylation cycle affects creatine? I think it does.

To be honest, I am not sure if blood creatine levels are related to the supplement.  The supplement definitely makes me gain a few pounds of water weight, but I never noticed the effect in the mirror, as some claim.

But speaking of methylation, there is a methyl donor that could also increase muscle fullness -- Betaine (trimethylglycine).  I have been taking an amino acid supplement that has this, and I do seem to be fuller, including in the morning (when I tend to look shrunken). Granted, this is a giant maybe, since I may just be noticing that my workouts are paying off.  But I will stop using it and see what happens.

Here's some info: https://examine.com/supplements/trimethylglycine/

I don't know anything about this methylation stuff, so maybe this doesn't help you, but I thought I would mention it.

Thanks for this.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I'm tolerating methyl donors well.  Interestingly, I tried betaine HCL with pepsin (with other methyl supplements) and got up to four pills and still didn't feel any of the warmth associated with overproduction of stomach acid.

Be careful with this.  Xrayguy hospitalized himself by going to 7 pills.  Hit him like a freight train.

Yikes, thanks for the warning.  Got any threads where he discusses this?
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

Boxcar

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2016, 11:23:40 pm »
Well, I do have low aldosterone and high intracellular potassium (like touching the top of the range), so maybe that has something to do with it. 

Maybe the fluid retention that goes with smaller muscles changes such that the fluid gets better utilized by muscles, which is why I look bigger with less fluid retention or smaller with more fluid retention.

So if you are retaining fluid somewhere other than in the muscles, then maybe this process is stealing fluid from the muscles themselves?

Creatine is supposed to cause fluid retention in the muscles specifically, so maybe that could help counteract this.

And my creatine levels were on the lower end when I got then tested a few years ago. Interesting.

Does anyone know of the methylation cycle affects creatine? I think it does.

To be honest, I am not sure if blood creatine levels are related to the supplement.  The supplement definitely makes me gain a few pounds of water weight, but I never noticed the effect in the mirror, as some claim.

But speaking of methylation, there is a methyl donor that could also increase muscle fullness -- Betaine (trimethylglycine).  I have been taking an amino acid supplement that has this, and I do seem to be fuller, including in the morning (when I tend to look shrunken). Granted, this is a giant maybe, since I may just be noticing that my workouts are paying off.  But I will stop using it and see what happens.

Here's some info: https://examine.com/supplements/trimethylglycine/

I don't know anything about this methylation stuff, so maybe this doesn't help you, but I thought I would mention it.

Thanks for this.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I'm tolerating methyl donors well.  Interestingly, I tried betaine HCL with pepsin (with other methyl supplements) and got up to four pills and still didn't feel any of the warmth associated with overproduction of stomach acid.

Be careful with this.  Xrayguy hospitalized himself by going to 7 pills.  Hit him like a freight train.

Yikes, thanks for the warning.  Got any threads where he discusses this?

Just to clarify, I was referring to betaine anhydrous (ie trimethylglycine, "TMG" ), which is different than the betaine HCL that is used to increase stomach acid.
Age: 36
178 lbs 5'8''

Current Treatment: 50 mg testosterone cypionate IM, twice a week
Low T Symptoms: Chronic pelvic pain, and other neuropathic pain.  Mild anxiety, low energy and low motivation
Meds: Amitriptyline (for pain, not depression), Clonidine (for sleep, not blood pressure)

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Re: Random Changes in Muscle Tone/Size
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2016, 11:23:40 pm »