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Author Topic: Why don't AI's work with HCG  (Read 3748 times)

PakMan

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Why don't AI's work with HCG
« on: November 22, 2016, 02:25:51 am »
I've often heard that AIs do not work to control estradiol from HCG because that is created in the testicles which leads to the questions

1. What percent of estrogen (to total estrogen) is created in the testicles in normal healthy males without HCG?

2. 1. What percent of estrogen (to total estrogen) is created in the testicles in men with about 1000iu HCG?

Because if a large percent of E is still being created outside the testicles why won't AI's have an effect?
Age: 46, HT: 5' 7'', WT: 75 kg

Jan 16 to Oct 16 - Test Enanthate (35mg 2x/week)
Oct 16 to Feb 17 - HCG (500iu 2x/Week)
Feb 17 - Test Propionate (25mg only 2 injections 4 days apart)
Aug 2017 onwards (Astaxanthin + other oils, supplements)
Dec 2017 Low dose TRT (25 mg twice a week)
Nothing from Jan 1, 2019

21/08/2017 8:10 PM
Total T = 271 ng/dl  (Range 160 - 726)
LH = 5.15 mIU/ml  (Range 0.8 - 7.6)

Osprey

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Re: Why don't AI's work with HCG
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2016, 02:43:08 am »
Nobody knows, hasn't been studied and I'm sure there is wide variation. For example in my case HCG doesn't raise E2 much no matter what the dose, and to your last point, small doses of anastrozole have a normal effect to lower my E2 several points.

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Re: Why don't AI's work with HCG
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2016, 02:43:08 am »


PeakT

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Re: Why don't AI's work with HCG
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2016, 02:51:26 am »
I've often heard that AIs do not work to control estradiol from HCG because that is created in the testicles which leads to the questions

1. What percent of estrogen (to total estrogen) is created in the testicles in normal healthy males without HCG?

2. 1. What percent of estrogen (to total estrogen) is created in the testicles in men with about 1000iu HCG?

Because if a large percent of E is still being created outside the testicles why won't AI's have an effect?

I don't totally know the mechanism, but the concept is I believe that aromatase lives in fat tissue and this is what AI's such as Arimidex would work on.  That said, I  just found this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8476768

Hopefully, someone else knows the details here.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

PeakT

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Re: Why don't AI's work with HCG
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2016, 02:53:14 am »
Nobody knows, hasn't been studied and I'm sure there is wide variation. For example in my case HCG doesn't raise E2 much no matter what the dose, and to your last point, small doses of anastrozole have a normal effect to lower my E2 several points.

But you're not on HCG Mono, right?  I assume the OP is talking about that situation, since TRT + HCG isn't usually going to have that kind of an estradiol issue assuming you have the right testosterone dosing to start with before you add on the HCG.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: Why don't AI's work with HCG
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2016, 02:53:14 am »


Cataceous

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Re: Why don't AI's work with HCG
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2016, 04:07:22 am »
I don't have time to dig it up at the moment, but I posted a reference on this a few months back. The article was estimating the relative magnitudes of the difference sources of estradiol.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 4.5 mg T propionate subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene q4d
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

PeakT

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Re: Why don't AI's work with HCG
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2016, 01:02:36 am »
I don't have time to dig it up at the moment, but I posted a reference on this a few months back. The article was estimating the relative magnitudes of the difference sources of estradiol.

You talking about this Cataceous.   If not, you (and Hydranted) had some great info here:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=8937.0
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Cataceous

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Re: Why don't AI's work with HCG
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2016, 03:11:22 pm »
That's not the one I was thinking of and I still can't find it. I might have referred to this abstract in the process.

Quote
The purpose of this study was to quantify the various sources of estrone (E1) and 17 beta-estradiol (E2) production in normal men and in women with testicular feminization. ...
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 4.5 mg T propionate subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene q4d
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

PeakT

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Re: Why don't AI's work with HCG
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2016, 05:28:44 pm »
That's not the one I was thinking of and I still can't find it. I might have referred to this abstract in the process.

Quote
The purpose of this study was to quantify the various sources of estrone (E1) and 17 beta-estradiol (E2) production in normal men and in women with testicular feminization. ...

If you can remember any key word that you said I can probably dig that up.  I have a few tricks of the trade.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Cataceous

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Re: Why don't AI's work with HCG
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2016, 05:43:27 pm »
If you can remember any key word that you said I can probably dig that up.  I have a few tricks of the trade.

I think I tried that and still struck out. For sure "estradiol", "Leydig" or "intratesticular". Maybe "fat" or some synonym, for where other production takes place.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 4.5 mg T propionate subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene q4d
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

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Re: Why don't AI's work with HCG
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2016, 05:43:27 pm »