Needle Size to Draw Versus Inject (Cypionate)

[TheWife]

I know it doesn't kill you overnight but we have been dealing with the symptoms of Low T for about 20 years and the thought of Low T never entered our minds until about 10 years ago. It took us another 8 years after that to get a doctor to even test for it and now we have spent another a year and a half knowing what the problem is and not being able to get good treatment. I feel like we have a lot to make up for.

Sometimes it's really hard to keep your head up and stay hopeful. Especially for me. I get really emotional sometimes (because I am a female after all)
 
I feel like this condition (not my husband) has cheated me out of the relationship I should have enjoyed before I got to be middle aged. We have been together since I was 21 so it's like I was at my peak while he was at the ultimate low. 

And I don't even want to think about the possibility that he may not be one of those guys like anonymous11 who has an almost magical transformation.  That is truly what I hope to have happen but I know I have to stay realistic because it doesn't always happen quite that way.

Thank you for your encouragement and a place to spout off.

[PeakT]

I know it doesn't kill you overnight but we have been dealing with the symptoms of Low T for about 20 years and the thought of Low T never entered our minds until about 10 years ago. It took us another 8 years after that to get a doctor to even test for it and now we have spent another a year and a half knowing what the problem is and not being able to get good treatment. I feel like we have a lot to make up for.

Sometimes it's really hard to keep your head up and stay hopeful. Especially for me. I get really emotional sometimes (because I am a female after all)
 
I feel like this condition (not my husband) has cheated me out of the relationship I should have enjoyed before I got to be middle aged. We have been together since I was 21 so it's like I was at my peak while he was at the ultimate low. 

And I don't even want to think about the possibility that he may not be one of those guys like anonymous11 who has an almost magical transformation.  That is truly what I hope to have happen but I know I have to stay realistic because it doesn't always happen quite that way.

Thank you for your encouragement and a place to spout off.

Been there on the top part. 

Hopefully, the testosterone will improve his mood enough to where he wants to change.  Low testosterone is very hard on the male body and mind and so there are probably multiple issues.  But it can lessen anxiety and raise general passion and clarity of though, so hopefully that will occur with your husband. 

[TheWife]

Ok so we got in touch with Doc #2 and we are going to try the Testopel. But while we wait for insurance pre-approval, He is letting hubby take injections.

He prescribed Test Cyp 200mg/1ml every ten days and he will be on that until the Testopel insertion. I will be giving the injections at home.

He gave us 2 different sized needles one to draw and one to inject but i'm not sure which is which. We have 20 and 21 guage. I would assume the larger 20 would be used to draw and the smaller to inject.  Anybody got any ideas? I am waiting on a call back from the doctor but I haven't heard from him yet?

Here's hoping the magic happens!!!

I hope we see a big difference right away.

[PeakT]

Ok so we got in touch with Doc #2 and we are going to try the Testopel. But while we wait for insurance pre-approval, He is letting hubby take injections.

He prescribed Test Cyp 200mg/1ml every ten days and he will be on that until the Testopel insertion. I will be giving the injections at home.

He gave us 2 different sized needles one to draw and one to inject but i'm not sure which is which. We have 20 and 21 guage. I would assume the larger 20 would be used to draw and the smaller to inject.  Anybody got any ideas? I am waiting on a call back from the doctor but I haven't heard from him yet?

Here's hoping the magic happens!!!

I hope we see a big difference right away.

I believe the std is draw with the larger, 20, and inject with 21.  Talk to your doc's office, though, to make sure.

I hope you experience something right away, but, if he doesn't, don't panic.  It can take 2-3 months for some men.  It really depends on the situation. 

[Quincy]

Ok so we got in touch with Doc #2 and we are going to try the Testopel. But while we wait for insurance pre-approval, He is letting hubby take injections.

He prescribed Test Cyp 200mg/1ml every ten days and he will be on that until the Testopel insertion. I will be giving the injections at home.

He gave us 2 different sized needles one to draw and one to inject but i'm not sure which is which. We have 20 and 21 guage. I would assume the larger 20 would be used to draw and the smaller to inject.  Anybody got any ideas? I am waiting on a call back from the doctor but I haven't heard from him yet?

Here's hoping the magic happens!!!

I hope we see a big difference right away.

I think it is a good idea you are trying the injections before the pellets. It will give you a chance to see how you respond. It will take a few injections before his serum levels reach their peak, so keep that in mind. As PeakT said everyone is different how they respond. I was a very fast responder and could feel it in my brain within a few minutes after the first injection. Others feel it within a few days or weeks. But that is great you will finally get some proper feedback with higher levels of T.

I use a 18 gauge needle to draw it with and then put a 1" 25 gauge needle for the injection. Most times I hardly feel it, just make sure you take the weight off the muscle and keep it relaxed when you inject. I rotate between my thighs and glutes. My wife does the glutes. There are several youtube vids showing how to self inject. One doc actually uses a 27 gauge needle, which is really tiny.

Here is a clip of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQor40vf7lE

Hope to hear some positive reports back from you!

[TheWife]

Thank you guys for your responses. I was able to confirm that you draw with the larger needle (smaller number) and inject with the smaller needle.

We made it through the first shot and he said I didn't hurt him at all giving the injection but that it burned a little when he started to walk away. like when he put weight on the side I did the injection. Is that normal?

Also, I asked him to give me voluntary feedback from time to time about if he notices any difference or if he doesn't because I don't want him to feel like I am pestering him about it all of the time.

But can you guys tell me what day in this ten 10 cycle the test level will be the highest?

I am trying not to be impatient or expect too much. It is really hard. 

[PeakT]

Thank you guys for your responses. I was able to confirm that you draw with the larger needle (smaller number) and inject with the smaller needle.

We made it through the first shot and he said I didn't hurt him at all giving the injection but that it burned a little when he started to walk away. like when he put weight on the side I did the injection. Is that normal?

Also, I asked him to give me voluntary feedback from time to time about if he notices any difference or if he doesn't because I don't want him to feel like I am pestering him about it all of the time.

But can you guys tell me what day in this ten 10 cycle the test level will be the highest?

I am trying not to be impatient or expect too much. It is really hard. 

Cypionate peaks about day 4 or 5.  If his E2 is high, this is when many docs will prescribe low dose Armidex to pull that back down.  This is very important to note, because many men do very well for a few days or even a couple of weeks and the extra estradiol seems to drag the experience down.  Hopefully, your doctor will be on top of this.

Pellets are a different animal.  You'll start out medium high and slowly fall down.  If he lets you go too long, you may not feel that good for a few weeks, so discuss this with him.

[Quincy]

He prescribed Test Cyp 200mg/1ml every ten days and he will be on that until the Testopel insertion. I will be giving the injections at home.

I hope we see a big difference right away.

What is the dosage you are injecting? Is it 1cc?

I know you plan on switching to pellets at some point, but weekly is a better schedule than every 10 days. I started out going 3 weeks, then 2 weeks, then 10 days and finally switched to weekly. I always felt like crap after a week on the longer schedules. There are also differences between people how fast they metabolize the T. Some are fast metabolizers… I think I fall in that category. If you read the insert pamphlet on the Watson’s T cypionate, it says the half life is 8 days. That is an average since there are differences in metabolic rates. I have read in various places the peak is 48 – 72 hours after injection. Dr. Crysler says it varies between 24 – 72 hours. He has a huge client base and does a lot of blood testing and tweaking with his patients. When I first started injecting weekly, I was good to go for at least the first 4-5 days and would start falling off on the 6th-7th day. Over time the 6th and 7th day has become a lot more stable. I have read of others on weekly schedules reporting the same phenomenon, where they would crave their next shot near the end of the week. Then it levels out and you are good to go.

The main thing is you have to have patience and give it time since we all react differently. Also, it is not like everything is fixed when it starts kicking in. All the various symptoms recover on different time schedules. Some of them, you will notice slow improvements every passing week and months. Some take 6-12 months some 2-3 years. It just depends on the individual and what got hammered the most when you were running on fumes. But it is nice to see slow steady improvements and know that it will keep getting better for some time to come.

The main thing is to keep a positive attitude and work on every other aspect (diet, exercise, quality sleep, reduced stress, etc) to help with the healing process. Positive reinforcement promotes even more positive healthy lifestyle changes.

[PeakT]

Good point Quincy on the weekly.  I was going to comment but forgot...

[Ken]

Hi Wife,

I just went through dialing this very topic in for myself.  I found that the best overall combo is a 20 or even 22 gauge 1-1/2 inch long needle to draw.  You want the 1-1/2 inch length to reach the bottom of the vial as to not waste any precious T. 

For injection I started with 22 gauge 1-1/2 length, but it was a bit painful and seemed to really be going deeper than necessary.  If your hubby has a bit of a fat layer in the injection areas (glut or upper outer thigh) he might need the 1-1/2 length.  I only seem to carry a fat layer of any appreciable thickness in my lower belly so I went to 1 inch needles and they have been working great.

After more thought and speaking with the pharmacist I had him order 23 gauge 1 inch for injection.  This is about as small as you can go and still be able to inject fairly quickly.  I have read about guys going as small as 25 gauge, but I imagine this might take 20 or 30 seconds to inject.

Hopefully your doctor or his nurse gave you instruction on how to best perform the injection.  Basically the three things that minimize the discomfort are:

1)  With your opposite hand (from the hand holding the syringe) gently spread the skin a bit taught by expanding the distance between your index finger and thumb.

2)  Enter the injection spot pretty close to 90 degrees with respect to the skin surface.

3)  It seems best if you quickly sort of "stick" the needle all the way in without slamming it of course.

As far as injection sites I have tried both sides of the glut and I have tried my upper outer right quad (that location is better suited for self injection).  So for me none of the injections have been very painful.  It does seem that the glut actually stings a bit more from the needle.  However, when I did the thigh, I thought "hey that didn't hurt at all!"  And then the next day came and I had a helluva charlie horse for about a day and a half.  Then I went back to dear wifey for the glut injections.

This is all I have to share at this point.  Good luck with everything. In closing I can tell you I started feeling noticeably better within hours of my first injection!  And everything has just continued to get better since!  Hopefully your hubby has a similar experience.

Cheers.

[TheWife]

Quincy & Ken, Thank you for the great replies.

Quincy he gets the whole vial 1ml I believe that is the same as 1cc

  You want the 1-1/2 inch length to reach the bottom of the vial as to not waste any precious T.

Ken Do you leave the vial upright when you draw it out? I always turn it upside down to draw out the medicine for injections. Then it doesn't require a long needle. You just pull the needle out of the vial so that only the open tip of it is through the rubber. Then you can get it all out (almost)

They didn't give me any pointers on giving the shots but I am very familiar with giving injections so it wasn't really necessary. Nice description from you by the way. One other thing I would mention if giving it in the glut is to put your weight on the other leg so the hip you are giving the injection in is completely relaxed.

Hubby said it was a little tender last night before bedtime but he can't feel where it was injected today.

He seems to be in a really good mood today (not the norm) but he said it is because he slept good last night (also not the norm)

I hope these are good signs but i'm also trying not to let this shot have a placebo effect on my observations. But he doesn't really pay much attention to how he is feeling most of the time so I would say he will have to have a total transformation to admit that it is really helping. That is just his personality though. (or maybe that is just his low T personality)

That's also why we went so long using the Axiron because he would just say it might be helping or it might not. Maybe I feel a little better, Maybe not.  Turns out it was NOT.

Its hard to tell with him sometimes so I would love for him to see a noticeable change.

I know weekly would be better but we were just so excited to finally have some real T getting into the system that I didn't want to rock the boat since we are only doing the injections a couple of times anyway. Some days I just don't feel like fighting the battle so hard. But if we should have a reason to stay with injections (insurance doesn't approve Testopel or hubby doesn't like the procedure, etc.) I will fight for injections every week instead of 10 days.

[PeakT]

Keep fightin' the fight!  From all us low T and formerly low T guys out there, our hats are off to you!

But you do need to assume the Lotus position.  You're gonna make him nervous if you're watching him like a field biologist on one of those documentaries. 

[Ken]

Wife,

Yeah, I'm aware you can turn the vial upside down and this is certainly preferred by some.  It just seems less precarious to me to see all the way to the bottom of the vial what I am getting than trying to figure out if I'm puncturing the vial membrane to the perfect depth to get it all without the needle popping back out.  The membrane is not all that thick.  Maybe just me and my personal preference.  If it were some other drug where you have more to waste then I would do it upside down.  Actually what would really help is if the insurance would let me get more than a one month at a time supply so I could get the 10ml vials instead of 1ml vials.  It is a pain in the *ss to draw .75ml each week such that when the 4th shot comes at week 4 you have to draw .25ml from the 3 previous vials to make your last shot of the month (well actually 28 day cycle).

Glad to hear that day 1 had signs of positive results.  He should continue to feel better and better over the next few days.  Might be a bit of a bear at day 9 or 10 though.  I don't know if your husband works out, but when I really noticed my most profound improvement was when I hit the gym at about day 4 of my first shot.  That's when I could objectively see dramatic difference in energy and stamina and enjoyment of lifting for the first time in a long time.  And I am a long time gym rat that can state without question it was not placebo!  Real strength gains have since come over the past few weeks as well.

Good Luck.

[Quincy]

Quincy he gets the whole vial 1ml I believe that is the same as 1cc

Yes, that would be 200mg of T as the dosage. Just to give you an idea of how the half life works, The 200 mgs are suspended in the cotton seed oil in the muscle tissue. The capillaries slowly pick up some of the cypionate and it is pretty much instantly cleaved free from the cottonseed ester once it enters the bloodstream. This process goes on until it is eventually all absorbed and used up. The 8 day half life means you would have half left (100mg of T in the cypionate) in the muscle tissue after 8 days. If you are injecting every 10 days, there will be a period in the beginning where the accumulated serum T will ramp up and then level off. After a couple more shots, he will be about 30% higher in serum T than the first shot cycle. I don't know if you want all those details  but suffice to say his maximum levels will steadily rise over the next 2-3 weeks.

I sometimes got a little burn after the injection, particularly when they started me out at 2cc. That's a lot of oil to be pushed into the muscle tissue. I now do 0.9 cc each week. That is another reason why I prefer the thinner 25 ga. needle. My first 3 shots were done at the doc's office and they used a 21 or 22 ga needle. I would have some soreness for a day or two. The thin needle hardly leaves any soreness at all. I also think it is better to push the fluid slowly into the tissue (maybe 20 seconds). It doesn't hurt more from going slower and has to be less traumatic to the muscle tissue vs squirting quickly. There is also less scarring to the muscle tissue using the thin needle. After 10 years, you would have poked yourself over 500 times. That's another reason why I rotate between four sites. 125 times over 10 years with a thinner needle is less traumatic to the muscle tissue. I maybe over thinking this, but it has worked well for me. Definitely less painful.

[Quincy]

Wife,

Yeah, I'm aware you can turn the vial upside down and this is certainly preferred by some.  It just seems less precarious to me to see all the way to the bottom of the vial what I am getting than trying to figure out if I'm puncturing the vial membrane to the perfect depth to get it all without the needle popping back out.  The membrane is not all that thick.  Maybe just me and my personal preference.  If it were some other drug where you have more to waste then I would do it upside down.  Actually what would really help is if the insurance would let me get more than a one month at a time supply so I could get the 10ml vials instead of 1ml vials.  It is a pain in the *ss to draw .75ml each week such that when the 4th shot comes at week 4 you have to draw .25ml from the 3 previous vials to make your last shot of the month (well actually 28 day cycle).

That is a great idea about getting the last little bits left. I was doing it scraping about near the rubber septum. I can't believe your insurance company wants you using the 1ml vial instead of the 10ml. it would save them a lot of money. I've read of other people calling and finding out they would both save money and the insurance company obliged. You can find the 10ml vials under $80. For some people that would last them a half year.