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Author Topic: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein  (Read 17411 times)

Blade78

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Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« on: April 04, 2013, 09:51:14 am »

I just got bored and watched Knives over Forks.....I dont eat anything other than eggwhites that are from animals....I dont worry about myself and cancer., bu I worry about my parents, now both 65

in tbe movie,. Dr Esselstyn  says how he learned the info to write his book...via the China Study and research

but NO animal protein?
so I need to stop eating eggwhites..
he goes into 2 parts about protein
1 how without it, you will die...you don't need carbs(sugar) or fat as much as you must have protein
2 he showed a graph that showed how much animal protein was consumed in a country and then a graph next to it of cancer in that country
the graphs were all about identical, cept the cancer graph was 20% taller

I found this high yield facts about the diet and the biggest concern I have is EGGWHITEs? no eggwhites....I'd better start eating rice protein and get my protein elsewhere....dang it??

The Esselstyn Rules:

    No meat, no poultry, no fish--not even salmon
    No dairy of any kind--not even skim milk or non-fat yogurt.
   No eggs--not even egg whites or Egg Beaters
    No oil--not even virgin olive oil or canola oil
    Aim for 100% Whole Grain products. Ingredients must say, Whole Wheat, or Whole Buckwheat, Whole Rye,etc. 100% stone-ground wheat is not Whole Wheat unless the word Whole appears.  Forget about semolina flour in pasta.  Forget about white rice.  I thought my Barilla Plus multigrain pasta was fantastic--turns out, semolina is the number one ingredient.
    Do not drink juice. Fruit is fine.  A little juice used to saute, or season recipes or for salad dressings is fine
    Do not eat nuts, even walnuts, unless you do not have heart disease.
    Do not eat avocados, if you have heart disease.
    Do not eat coconut, if you have heart disease.
    Eat soy products cautiously.  They are high in fat (40% +) and many are highly processed.  Only use Lite Tofu (like Mori-Nu or NaSoya Lite Firm Tofu).  I also use Soy Boy Organic 5 Grain Low Fat Tempeh.
    Reduce sugar as much as possible.  When you do use it for recipes, stick to the more unprocessed varieties.  But don't fool yourself, maple syrup, agave, and ho

http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com/happy_healthy_long_life/2011/08/15-months.html
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Cronos

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2013, 01:24:23 pm »
He even says no smoothies are aloud either on his website. Personally I do think esselstyn goes a bit to far. Yes he says 10% fat from calories which is good. Yes his methods work. But so does ornish's which does include egg whites and fish oil, even a little dairy, which according to esselstyn is complete blasphemy on all three of those.
“ALL I’M TRYING TO DO IS WIPE OUT HEART DISEASE, DIABETES, HYPERTENSION, AND OBESITY- NATHAN PRITIKIN

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2013, 01:24:23 pm »


PeakT

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2013, 03:08:26 pm »
Well, the advantage to the Esselstyn program is that he has proven it works in many patients and it is similar to Ornish, whose studies corroborate.

However, Esselstyn's program is fairly "extreme" - actually "strict" is probably a better word - imo in the following sense:  the supersupercultures all had a little bit of meat.  Furthermore, primates in general have a little bit of animal protein.  So a little bit seems to be part of our history.

Now I am sure that the argument for Esselstyn's strictness is that the supersupercultures have no individuals in their society with advanced arteriosclerosis, hypertension, etc.  So our disease states demand a very strict plant-based diet.

There is a counterargument to that and one that you guys may not be aware of:  Nathan Pritikin.  Pritikin ate some meat and died with pristine arteries even though he did not begin eating Low Fat until about age 40.  This is quite remarkable when you stop to think about it.

It's interesting, because I was just emailing someone about this same subject.  He was a Low Fat guy who found that eating a strict Esselstyn-like Diet was just too difficult for him.  So I suggested he look into Pritikin's life and he seemed relieved.

And to be clear:  I have only the utmost respect for Dr. Esselstyn's work.  As they say, "You can't argue with success." 
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If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

haole

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2013, 07:49:22 pm »
Pritkin committed suicide though.  Now he had restarted chemotherapy for the leukemia, you have to wonder though if his diet had an impact on his mental health at all. 

I think there are always tradeoffs, and it may be prudent to look at at multiple aspects of health.


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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2013, 07:49:22 pm »


Cronos

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2013, 08:06:55 pm »
I don't think one can make those kinds of assumptions. His leukemia was in remission for 20 years yet he was convinced to undergo chemo. Then he had liver and kidney damage. Went for a second opinion the doc said their was no hope that he would die quite soon. I think most of us would mentally unstable given the circumstances.
“ALL I’M TRYING TO DO IS WIPE OUT HEART DISEASE, DIABETES, HYPERTENSION, AND OBESITY- NATHAN PRITIKIN

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2013, 08:56:13 pm »
Pritkin committed suicide though.  Now he had restarted chemotherapy for the leukemia, you have to wonder though if his diet had an impact on his mental health at all. 

I think there are always tradeoffs, and it may be prudent to look at at multiple aspects of health.

Well, I would argue that he simply ate like most of the supersupercultures and they live into their 90's in nearly perfect mental and physical health.  So I really doubt it. 

But I know where you are headed (I think):  one of the common things you read is that the brain is packed with cholesterol and thus a Low Fat Diet can lead to poor mental health.  This goes against some study work which shows Low Fat beat Low Carb for example:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Food_Appetite_Neurotransmitters

Of course, each person knows how they feel better/worse, but the studies just deal with average.

What is also int'g about the above argument is that Paleo/Low Carb people always argue that consuming cholesterol does not matter because our body manufacturers almost all the cholesterol we need.  So I feel that they are speaking out of both sides of their mouth when they say that in the case of the brain the body cannot manufacture all the cholesterol it needs, especially in light of the evidence to the contrary.

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haole

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2013, 09:14:58 pm »
No agenda :)  I've noticed my wife's mood is up some after her cleaning up her diet. Weird thing to discuss on a testosterone forum but her menustral cramps have lessened as her use of fish oil and vitamin d has increased.

I remember reading a researcher noticed he got better at math, when he was eating more fat:

http://quantifiedself.com/2010/10/will-butter-make-you-smarter-i/

Again no agenda, it appears though the body is a complex system with a lot of interrelated feedback systems.

PeakT

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 10:01:09 pm »
No agenda :)  I've noticed my wife's mood is up some after her cleaning up her diet. Weird thing to discuss on a testosterone forum but her menustral cramps have lessened as her use of fish oil and vitamin d has increased.

I remember reading a researcher noticed he got better at math, when he was eating more fat:

http://quantifiedself.com/2010/10/will-butter-make-you-smarter-i/

Again no agenda, it appears though the body is a complex system with a lot of interrelated feedback systems.

Most importantly, menstual cramps are definitely related to inflammation.  Many women will take an NSAID and get dramatic relief and this is why. 

Sure it possible, but I am still skeptical and here is why:  humans and prehumans have been low fat for virtually all of their existence.  Modern diets with oils and fatty livestock just were not a signifcant part of the fast.  So wouldn't it be pretty weird it consuming a bunch of fat could boost your brain power?  I guess you never know, but there are many signs that higher fat levels are linked to brain dysfunction.  A very interesting one that I have brought up is that one of the root causes of migraine has been found to be fat in the diet.  Most people can get immediate relief from migraines but they just don't want to do it because, well, they love their fat!

See #9: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Migraine_Prevention

Just my two cents...
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If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Blade78

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2013, 12:23:15 am »

Well, the advantage to the Esselstyn program is that he has proven it works in many patients and it is similar to Ornish, whose studies corroborate.

And to be clear:  I have only the utmost respect for Dr. Esselstyn's work.  As they say, "You can't argue with success."

yes you can argue with success
Here's how to get to Las Vegas: WALK THERE

I walked to las vegas once.....you want to take plane/train/car? NO YOU MUST DO WHAT I DID AND WALK THERE! the success of my journey shows YOU HAVE TO WALK THERE!!!!  makes sense, right?  I got there, therefor YOU MUST WALK THERE

I am confused by the "science" of the FoK movie.
I see the results of the fat people having their arteries de-clogged,but I don't see them being fat with clear arteries, I see that they are thin with clear arteries/
so show me a study where fat people with clogged arteries and half go FoK route and the rest just diet?
I dont see that
In Forks over Knives(FoK)
1.people who ate animal protein  had blocked arteries and generally were fat.
2  fat people got cancer
3 when they lost weight, the arteries/medical issues repaired themselves

-Two things happened via dr E:  1  no more animal protein,  2 people lose weight

so it's then thought that animal protein makes us  have clogged artieries, so make people stop eating animal protein and then the blockages decrease

why am I too assume this has anything to do with the animal protein?  why not just being fat led you to have clogged arteries?
diet and stop being a fatty and you'll not have clogged vessals?
china study showed cancer  happened in wealthy people(who ate meat? and were wealthy)  so the poor people didnt  eat meat and didnt have cancer/blockages

so why is meat the problem? why not wealth?
Dr E/campell say is it because animal protein turns on cancer growth?  so even though eggwhites are fat free, I can't eat them cause they are from an animal?
so so the amino acids I get from eggwhites are different than the ones I get from the safe rice protein?
http://anthonycolpo.com/forks-over-knives-the-latest-vegan-nonsense-dissected-debunked-and-destroyed/
One of Campbell’s pivotal arguments in The China Study, repeated in Forks Over Knives, was research showing that rodents administered aflatoxin were more likely to get cancer if they ate high-protein (20%) diets. According to Campbell, the furry little buggers fed low-protein (5%) diets were less likely to develop malignant tumours. The protein in these diets was derived from casein, one of the two main protein fractions of dairy (whey being the other).
Sounds like a pretty damning indictment of high-protein diets, doesn’t it? Well, at least if you’re dumb enough to overlook the fact that virtually no human derives all his/her protein from casein. And that no human is a rat…physiologically speaking, that is.
And there’s one other teeny weeny detail that Campbell conveniently neglected to mention: the low-protein rats died at an earlier age! No wonder they got less cancer – they didn’t long enough to develop malignant tumours


Ive read lots of those stuff that debunks this stuff
http://anthonycolpo.com/forks-over-knives-the-latest-vegan-nonsense-dissected-debunked-and-destroyed/

I dont see science, I see the same science as in the "it's raining therefor the GODS ARE MAD!"


Compared to the typical modern diet, yes vegetarianism is typically a step forwards. But the modern meat based diets in high in meat, saturated fat and low in fruits, vegetables, etc. Those folks are typically inactive, obese, under a lot of stress, etc.

Now compared that to an athlete eating a lot of leaner cuts of meat, lots of fruits and vegetables, who is active, lean, etc.

I know who I think will be healthier.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 01:22:23 am by watchntv »
“Don’t you feel good when you go to the gym?’ Not at all. There’s too many people in-shape there. When I go to McDonald’s I feel great. At McDonald’s I’m Matthew McConaughey.” --Jim Gaffigan - Mr. Universe

PeakT

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2013, 04:23:01 am »
Well, you're pretty much preachin' to the choir on much of what you are saying.  One area where they have a pretty strong case, though, is on the meat to colon cancer connection and of course processed meats as well.  I think the Paleo and Low Carb crowds should slow cook their beef for safety as there is enough evidence for this to make you pause and reflect.

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If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2013, 04:37:50 am »
McDougall brings up some interesting arguments regarding animal proteins and I would guess summarizes one side pretty well:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2004nl/040100puproteinoverload.htm

For example, I think you'll want to read his section on the sulfur-containing amino acids and what excess consumption of them can do.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 04:39:45 am by PeakT »
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Blade78

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2013, 04:39:43 am »
Well, you're pretty much preachin' to the choir on much of what you are saying.  One area where they have a pretty strong case, though, is on the meat to colon cancer connection and of course processed meats as well.  I think the Paleo and Low Carb crowds should slow cook their beef for safety as there is enough evidence for this to make you pause and reflect.
there are two issues that Im addressing in the Forks over Knives film
1  no eating animal meat will reverse clogged arteries
2 no eating animal meat will reduce/elminate cancer

#1 seems to a bunch of bull, I see no evidence that going vegan will  create clear arteries because you arent eating animal
I see no fat vegans people who have clear arteries

#2 eliminating animal protein will reduce/eliminate cancer....I agree with,
just because of what you said, I do agree with.
the crust of meat, is a great way to start the cancer
or as my biochemistry teacher said

I agree.
I asked my old med school biochemistry teacher for her opinion, she said:

You always ask interesting questions that I don't have easy answers to!  But, I can certainly tell you what I think.

There are studies over the past 25 years that show heterocyclic amines can be formed when muscle meat is cooked.  The amount of these compounds are dependent on cooking time and method. It also appears that their formation requires creatine, which is a molecule found in muscle.  I have not found anything that indicates creatine is found in egg whites.  So, my expectation is that even though egg whites have a lot of protein, it is unlikely that they are generating amounts of heterocylic amines that are found in red meats cooked at high temperatures.  Also, I expect your cooking method is unlikely to generate the HCAs to any great extent because the cooking time is relatively short.

“Don’t you feel good when you go to the gym?’ Not at all. There’s too many people in-shape there. When I go to McDonald’s I feel great. At McDonald’s I’m Matthew McConaughey.” --Jim Gaffigan - Mr. Universe

Blade78

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2013, 04:47:29 am »
McDougall brings up some interesting arguments regarding animal proteins and I would guess summarizes one side pretty well:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2004nl/040100puproteinoverload.htm

For example, I think you'll want to read his section on the sulfur-containing amino acids and what excess consumption of them can do.
this link does not quote bible verses and just gives facts about how much protein you need, which depends on what you are doing with your weight
losing
gaining muscle
maintaining
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/protein-intake-while-dieting-qa.html
“Don’t you feel good when you go to the gym?’ Not at all. There’s too many people in-shape there. When I go to McDonald’s I feel great. At McDonald’s I’m Matthew McConaughey.” --Jim Gaffigan - Mr. Universe

PeakT

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2013, 05:39:45 am »
Read 2-6 at the bottom.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Blade78

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2013, 05:48:05 am »
Read 2-6 at the bottom.
why not cut/paste what you want me to read so I don't:
-have to go look
-assume what you and are talking about the same point?
“Don’t you feel good when you go to the gym?’ Not at all. There’s too many people in-shape there. When I go to McDonald’s I feel great. At McDonald’s I’m Matthew McConaughey.” --Jim Gaffigan - Mr. Universe

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Re: Low Fat Diets and Animal Protein
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2013, 05:48:05 am »