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Author Topic: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use  (Read 3341 times)

Dr. John Crisler

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2017, 09:52:25 am »
But does anyone have any idea of what zuclomiphene even does?
... Isn't it possible that "Clomid problems" are going to occur with any SERM, and we just don't understand the true causes yet? ...

In response to the first question, Wikipedia says "... unlike enclomifene, zuclomifene is antigonadotropic due to activation of the estrogen receptor and is able to reduce testosterone levels in men to near-castrate levels." So clearly you don't want to take it by itself.

As to the second question, in my mind it argues for more widespread use and testing of pure enclomiphene. Then we'll have a better idea. Even if Androxal doesn't get approval in the US, it may be making headway in other countries, so we should learn more in the coming years.



Dang, thanks.
This would be one reason why high Clomid doses might be worse on numbers than low Clomid doses then.
BAM!

That's why the original starting dose of 50mg per day--arbitrarily picked (more common in medicine than we would admit)--was wrong.
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

Paco1973

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 02:36:36 pm »
If the current dose is working then don't worry about these numbers. Otherwise hope that Androxal is resurrected.

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!

GOOD one, Cataceous!  As if the FDA would ever deign to allow a medication that might actually help hypogonadal men!
EVERYONE KNOWS that if they made Androxal legal, all men would be reduced to violent, sociopathic rape apes!
It MUST be kept off the shelves, AT ALL COSTS!!!

The FDA is really pushing back against testosterone therapies. I can't blame them, really. TRT has been the Wild West of medicine. Some doctors hand it out like candy, and they don't care what your blood levels are. At least, that's the way it was a decade ago. I guess it is starting to catch up. The sad thing is that Androxal seems to be a winner for secondary hypogonadal men, but the decision by the FDA seems more political than anything.

The funny thing is that it really isn't a new drug. It's just Clomid without Zuclomiphene. That's the way it goes, though.

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 02:36:36 pm »


Dr. John Crisler

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 03:02:28 pm »
If the current dose is working then don't worry about these numbers. Otherwise hope that Androxal is resurrected.

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!

GOOD one, Cataceous!  As if the FDA would ever deign to allow a medication that might actually help hypogonadal men!
EVERYONE KNOWS that if they made Androxal legal, all men would be reduced to violent, sociopathic rape apes!
It MUST be kept off the shelves, AT ALL COSTS!!!

The FDA is really pushing back against testosterone therapies. I can't blame them, really. TRT has been the Wild West of medicine. Some doctors hand it out like candy, and they don't care what your blood levels are. At least, that's the way it was a decade ago. I guess it is starting to catch up. The sad thing is that Androxal seems to be a winner for secondary hypogonadal men, but the decision by the FDA seems more political than anything.

The funny thing is that it really isn't a new drug. It's just Clomid without Zuclomiphene. That's the way it goes, though.
Yes, it really concerns me that the data from all these guys who were put on boiler plate TRT protocols, such as by these online clinics, will be added to the pool for assessing safety and efficacy.
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

ghce

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 03:19:58 pm »
If the current dose is working then don't worry about these numbers. Otherwise hope that Androxal is resurrected.

I would jump at the chance of trying Androxal but sadly it looks destined to never see the light of day
Age:57, Height 6' 3" weight 92.5KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Andriol 160mg
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 

Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 03:19:58 pm »


Forty2

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 09:25:43 pm »
Interesting that most guys who have tried pure enclomiphene citrate need to take more of it to get the same testosterone boosting effects that they got from clomid.

PeakT

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2017, 10:48:51 pm »
If the current dose is working then don't worry about these numbers. Otherwise hope that Androxal is resurrected.

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!

GOOD one, Cataceous!  As if the FDA would ever deign to allow a medication that might actually help hypogonadal men!
EVERYONE KNOWS that if they made Androxal legal, all men would be reduced to violent, sociopathic rape apes!
It MUST be kept off the shelves, AT ALL COSTS!!!

The FDA is really pushing back against testosterone therapies. I can't blame them, really. TRT has been the Wild West of medicine. Some doctors hand it out like candy, and they don't care what your blood levels are. At least, that's the way it was a decade ago. I guess it is starting to catch up. The sad thing is that Androxal seems to be a winner for secondary hypogonadal men, but the decision by the FDA seems more political than anything.

The funny thing is that it really isn't a new drug. It's just Clomid without Zuclomiphene. That's the way it goes, though.

I still donít think itís fair.  I think if Dr. Crisler or Saya want to use Androxal, they should be able to.  Thats my freedom lovin two cents
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

ghce

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2017, 11:49:43 pm »
If the current dose is working then don't worry about these numbers. Otherwise hope that Androxal is resurrected.

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!

GOOD one, Cataceous!  As if the FDA would ever deign to allow a medication that might actually help hypogonadal men!
EVERYONE KNOWS that if they made Androxal legal, all men would be reduced to violent, sociopathic rape apes!
It MUST be kept off the shelves, AT ALL COSTS!!!

The FDA is really pushing back against testosterone therapies. I can't blame them, really. TRT has been the Wild West of medicine. Some doctors hand it out like candy, and they don't care what your blood levels are. At least, that's the way it was a decade ago. I guess it is starting to catch up. The sad thing is that Androxal seems to be a winner for secondary hypogonadal men, but the decision by the FDA seems more political than anything.

The funny thing is that it really isn't a new drug. It's just Clomid without Zuclomiphene. That's the way it goes, though.

I still donít think itís fair.  I think if Dr. Crisler or Saya want to use Androxal, they should be able to.  Thats my freedom lovin two cents

Well that just fly's in the face of the well worn principle of commodification of a countries citizenry, next you will be thinking you own your own body!! ridiculous or that you can administer your own selection of medical cures or indeed that you are even allowed to diagnose your own illnesses. I say it in jest however you buck the system and you will soon find out its no jest, it ain't just the tax man that owns your soul.
Age:57, Height 6' 3" weight 92.5KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Andriol 160mg
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 

Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

PeakT

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2017, 01:50:49 pm »


Well that just fly's in the face of the well worn principle of commodification of a countries citizenry, next you will be thinking you own your own body!! ridiculous or that you can administer your own selection of medical cures or indeed that you are even allowed to diagnose your own illnesses. I say it in jest however you buck the system and you will soon find out its no jest, it ain't just the tax man that owns your soul.

Wait.  I am not trying to tell anyone overseas what to do.  And I have never said anything about being your own doctor.  Those are your assumptions - not mine.

I'm just saying that doctors here in the U.S. in my opinion should be given considerable leeway over here in the U.S.  And my reasoning is simple:

BY FAR the best care over here comes from doctors who are passionate and heavily research a pet topic.  These guys become experts in their niche and patients should be allowed to go to them.  They are doing great TRT protocols, regressing diabetes, regressing arterial plaque and so on. Thank God they have had the freedom and the huevos to buck the trend.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

ghce

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2017, 04:09:16 pm »
Indeed you are right. It is just a shame that there are too few passionate doctors who really try to understand their patients and work in their best interest rather than blindly taking the easy path that many seem to do, wouldn't worry me too much but for every misdiagnosis and bad protocol wrecked lives can ensue.

With the current  system regardless of which country it still pays to attempt to work out whats wrong with your health rather than blithely follow the instructions of an General Practitioner, Specialists however you might have more luck provided they are up to date with research.
Age:57, Height 6' 3" weight 92.5KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Andriol 160mg
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 

Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

Paco1973

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2017, 03:11:39 pm »
Indeed you are right. It is just a shame that there are too few passionate doctors who really try to understand their patients and work in their best interest rather than blindly taking the easy path that many seem to do, wouldn't worry me too much but for every misdiagnosis and bad protocol wrecked lives can ensue.

With the current  system regardless of which country it still pays to attempt to work out whats wrong with your health rather than blithely follow the instructions of an General Practitioner, Specialists however you might have more luck provided they are up to date with research.

The cool thing about where I live is that I don't have to see a GP at all. I can go straight to the specialist and get seen. No consultation is needed. Specialists here are surprisingly on top of current research, but, then again, they often make trips to Europe for seminars.

Everybody has to start somewhere, but I think the cookie cutter protocols a lot of doctors hand out are often too aggressive. I think a slow, methodical approach is probably best. Of course, it doesn't give the patient instant gratification, but I think it ultimately serves the patient's best interest.

PeakT

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2017, 02:08:01 pm »


The cool thing about where I live is that I don't have to see a GP at all. I can go straight to the specialist and get seen. No consultation is needed. Specialists here are surprisingly on top of current research, but, then again, they often make trips to Europe for seminars.

Everybody has to start somewhere, but I think the cookie cutter protocols a lot of doctors hand out are often too aggressive. I think a slow, methodical approach is probably best. Of course, it doesn't give the patient instant gratification, but I think it ultimately serves the patient's best interest.

Nice!

So is TRT pretty advanced where you are at - lots of options, good understanding of fertility, etc.?
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Paco1973

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2017, 05:44:56 pm »


The cool thing about where I live is that I don't have to see a GP at all. I can go straight to the specialist and get seen. No consultation is needed. Specialists here are surprisingly on top of current research, but, then again, they often make trips to Europe for seminars.

Everybody has to start somewhere, but I think the cookie cutter protocols a lot of doctors hand out are often too aggressive. I think a slow, methodical approach is probably best. Of course, it doesn't give the patient instant gratification, but I think it ultimately serves the patient's best interest.

Nice!

So is TRT pretty advanced where you are at - lots of options, good understanding of fertility, etc.?

Yes and no. It still depends on who you see, unfortunately. They have specialty clinics in Manila, and where I'm at there is a good fertility doctor that has a good handle on male hypogonadism treatment. What is lacking here is a sensitive Estradiol test. Fortunately, for me, the only time estrogen has been a problem was when I was taking anastrozole as part of my protocol. That stuff knocked my E2 into the dirt, and it was really a very low dose. I just respond too much to it, I guess. Labs can be pretty expensive, some medications can be expensive, but the visits to the doctor are cheap. I paid the equivalent of $16 for my last fertility consultation with my wife. I'm due for a knee surgery next month, and that is going to cost me $3,000. Compared to the US, that's super cheap.

I don't think anyone here has a handle on TRT like some of the physicians who engage in the comments here.

PeakT

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2017, 05:01:50 pm »


The cool thing about where I live is that I don't have to see a GP at all. I can go straight to the specialist and get seen. No consultation is needed. Specialists here are surprisingly on top of current research, but, then again, they often make trips to Europe for seminars.

Everybody has to start somewhere, but I think the cookie cutter protocols a lot of doctors hand out are often too aggressive. I think a slow, methodical approach is probably best. Of course, it doesn't give the patient instant gratification, but I think it ultimately serves the patient's best interest.

Nice!

So is TRT pretty advanced where you are at - lots of options, good understanding of fertility, etc.?

Yes and no. It still depends on who you see, unfortunately. They have specialty clinics in Manila, and where I'm at there is a good fertility doctor that has a good handle on male hypogonadism treatment. What is lacking here is a sensitive Estradiol test. Fortunately, for me, the only time estrogen has been a problem was when I was taking anastrozole as part of my protocol. That stuff knocked my E2 into the dirt, and it was really a very low dose. I just respond too much to it, I guess. Labs can be pretty expensive, some medications can be expensive, but the visits to the doctor are cheap. I paid the equivalent of $16 for my last fertility consultation with my wife. I'm due for a knee surgery next month, and that is going to cost me $3,000. Compared to the US, that's super cheap.

I don't think anyone here has a handle on TRT like some of the physicians who engage in the comments here.

Got it.  Yeah, some guys seem very sensitive to small amounts of an AI.  I haven't figured out why - no idea.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Dr. John Crisler

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Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2017, 01:03:50 pm »
Interesting that most guys who have tried pure enclomiphene citrate need to take more of it to get the same testosterone boosting effects that they got from clomid.
That is interesting.
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: Serum zuclomiphene swamps enclomiphene in long-term Clomid use
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2017, 01:03:50 pm »