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Author Topic: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide  (Read 5861 times)

Kierkegaard

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Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« on: August 09, 2017, 11:01:51 am »
From one of his most recent Reddit posts, and it does indeed seem to be supported by the evidence I can actually understand:

Although Vitamin B12 generally contributes to energy generation, is anti-inflammatory (which further contributes to energy), and is important in memory formation, under some circumstances (particularly in excess) it can cause fatigue and impaired cognition.
One prominent mechanism by which this occurs is that Vitamin B12 can bind strongly to Nitric Oxide. At high levels, Vitamin B12 can cause a Nitric Oxide deficiency.


If binding occurs at lower levels of Vitamin B12 but high Nitric Oxide levels, one can also get a relative Vitamin B12 deficiency despite adequate Vitamin B12 levels since Vitamin B12 bound to Nitric Oxide becomes inactive.

Nitric Oxide has many functions including: 1) helping improve circulation providing oxygen and nutrients to muscles and other tissues in the body 2) having anti-inflammatory effects (though it can be pro-inflammatory under certain circumstances). 3) is a reverse neurotransmitter (traveling from dendrites to axons rather than vice versa) important for memory formation.

So a depletion of Nitric Oxide by EXCESSIVE Vitamin B12 can cause fatigue by reducing oxygenation and nutrient transport to cells of the body. It also can result in higher inflammation which can cause fatigue. The Nitric Oxide depletion plus possible excess Vitamin B12 inactivation plus increased pro-inflammatory signaling can impair mental function.

Lesson: Sometimes an excess of Vitamin B12 can be just as bad as a deficit.
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

ghce

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2017, 03:16:49 pm »
Have been supplementing 1000mcg a day for the last 2 weeks and have not noted any negative effects so far on EQ or IQ in fact I would say a slight improvement to both at this level.
Age:60, Height 6' 3" weight 100KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Oral Andriol 160mg Daily
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 
Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2017, 03:16:49 pm »


PeakT

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2017, 03:23:43 pm »
From one of his most recent Reddit posts, and it does indeed seem to be supported by the evidence I can actually understand:

Although Vitamin B12 generally contributes to energy generation, is anti-inflammatory (which further contributes to energy), and is important in memory formation, under some circumstances (particularly in excess) it can cause fatigue and impaired cognition.
One prominent mechanism by which this occurs is that Vitamin B12 can bind strongly to Nitric Oxide. At high levels, Vitamin B12 can cause a Nitric Oxide deficiency.


If binding occurs at lower levels of Vitamin B12 but high Nitric Oxide levels, one can also get a relative Vitamin B12 deficiency despite adequate Vitamin B12 levels since Vitamin B12 bound to Nitric Oxide becomes inactive.

Nitric Oxide has many functions including: 1) helping improve circulation providing oxygen and nutrients to muscles and other tissues in the body 2) having anti-inflammatory effects (though it can be pro-inflammatory under certain circumstances). 3) is a reverse neurotransmitter (traveling from dendrites to axons rather than vice versa) important for memory formation.

So a depletion of Nitric Oxide by EXCESSIVE Vitamin B12 can cause fatigue by reducing oxygenation and nutrient transport to cells of the body. It also can result in higher inflammation which can cause fatigue. The Nitric Oxide depletion plus possible excess Vitamin B12 inactivation plus increased pro-inflammatory signaling can impair mental function.

Lesson: Sometimes an excess of Vitamin B12 can be just as bad as a deficit.


Interesting for me as a vegan.  Of course, I have to supplement this and I just grabbed a bottle and it has megadoses.  I break up the pill actually and just take part of it:  sounds like that might be smart!

One interesting side note:  some TRT clinics put B12 in their premade syringes kind for its "caffeine" effect.

Now, K, one thing to point out:  if your homocysteine is high from low B12 then B12 supplementation will boost NO.  So there is a range as always eh?
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

golfboy307

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2017, 07:32:16 pm »
I just was just going to mention what Peak hinted at:  for those of us who are MTHFR with high homocysteine, I feel like my B12 supplementation has helped with my NO/blood flow (over a longer period of time).
Age 51, 5'10, 155 lbs
Cholesterol 162 (HDL 59, LDL 87, Trigs 88, LDL-P 850)
Fasting Glucose 65 (down from 97 pre TRT)
A1C:  5.0 (down from 5.7 per TRT)
Homocysteine:  12.4 > 11.0 > 10.2 > 8.9 using B vitamin therapy.  MTHFR positive 

BP  120/78 (using improved diet and 10 mg Lisinopril ACE Inhibitor)  145/90 prior to meds.

Current protocol:  60 mg Test Cyp IM every 5 days.  No AI.
2/15/17 labs:  Total T (peak day): 1169 (250 - 1100 ng/dl).  Free T 198 pg/ML (46-225).  Sensitive E2: 40 High.  Previously 32. PSA 0.2  Hemocrit 44.2. SHBG: 32
9/15/18 labs:  Total T (trough day):  598 (250 -1100 ng/dl)  Free T 73.9 (46-225) Sensitive E2: 21  Hemocrit 43.7  SHBG 34
2/20/19 labs:  Total T (mid point):  776 (250 -1100 ng/dl) Free T 115.6 (46 - 224 pg/ml) Sensitive E2 24 (<29), DHT 43 (16-79 ng), DHEA-s 244 (70-495 mcg/dl)


Supplements:  Multivitamin, plus additional B12, B6, C, D, K2, Red Yeast Rice, Magnesium, and Coq10  Evening:  Kyolic Garlic, 2mg Cialis, LEF Endothelial Protection

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2017, 07:32:16 pm »


Kierkegaard

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 09:18:04 am »
There are definitely balancing factors.  But Mariano is just pointing out that if you have low NO and everything else is good, adding B12 can put you over the edge.
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

PeakT

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2017, 07:36:24 pm »
There are definitely balancing factors.  But Mariano is just pointing out that if you have low NO and everything else is good, adding B12 can put you over the edge.

Again it's a great point because he took supplements have so much be 12 in them. I believe mine is like 1633% of the RDA or something like that!
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Torrential

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2017, 08:05:30 pm »
Levels. It always about the levels. Mariano has described an effect that exists. But at what level does it begin to have impact?  How relevant is it to us, or to anyone for that matter?  He doesn't say.  I'll keep this in mind but am not going to make any changes becsuse of it.
Age 54, 6'0", 200#
Dec '15:  T-total 901, T-free 159.1, E2 17, SHBG 28
Mar '16:  T-total 801, T-free 208.8, E2 18, SHBG 14
Jun '16:  T-total 678, T-free 31.9 (above range); E2 9; working to increase SHBG
Sep '16:  T-total 1075, T-free 31.4, e2 50 (wow)
Jan-Mar '16:  T-cyp 120mg per week @34mg EOD; 300IU HCG EOD, 0.25 Anastrozole E3D
Apr '16: T-cyp 105mg per week @30mg EOD; 300IU HCG EOD; 0.25mg Anastrozole E3D
Jun '16:  Low E2: dropping Anastrozole, reducing HCG to 250IU EOD.  T-Cyp 16ml/32mg EOD
Supps:  SloNiacin, aspirin, Vit. C., aged garlic,

PeakT

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2017, 02:43:18 am »
Levels. It always about the levels. Mariano has described an effect that exists. But at what level does it begin to have impact?  How relevant is it to us, or to anyone for that matter?  He doesn't say.  I'll keep this in mind but am not going to make any changes becsuse of it.

If your blood pressure and erections are good then you don't have much to worry about, eh?
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Joe Sixpack

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2017, 02:58:53 am »
I searched Reddit using this term and didn't get much  author:marianco.

What's the trick to finding the rest of Mariano's posts?
Age: 55, Ht: 5'08", Wt: 155 lbs
Protocol: 25 mg T Cyp + 25 IU HCG M,W,F + 2 clicks T Cream + 15mg DHEA + 15mg Pregnenalone daily.
12/2018 test results: TT: 1054 ng/dL (264-916), FT: 17.2 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 21.6 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0)

Kierkegaard

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2017, 06:11:26 am »
I searched Reddit using this term and didn't get much  author:marianco.

What's the trick to finding the rest of Mariano's posts?

reddit.com/user/marianco

It goes without saying that it's *not* cool to message him and ask medical questions.

However, I've recently found that Dr Jonathan Wright, who exceeds even Dr Mariano, has a live call-in show to answer medical questions, including your own specific medical problems, where he offers information totally free of charge for up to a five minute answer -- and you can call back multiple times over a few weeks. 

http://tahomaclinic.com/green-medicine-radio-shows/

Number is given if you listen to one of the show segments.  It's on Saturdays from 10 am to noon Washington time.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 06:14:22 am by Kierkegaard »
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

Joe Sixpack

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2017, 02:40:07 am »
I searched Reddit using this term and didn't get much  author:marianco.

What's the trick to finding the rest of Mariano's posts?

reddit.com/user/marianco

It goes without saying that it's *not* cool to message him and ask medical questions.

However, I've recently found that Dr Jonathan Wright, who exceeds even Dr Mariano, has a live call-in show to answer medical questions, including your own specific medical problems, where he offers information totally free of charge for up to a five minute answer -- and you can call back multiple times over a few weeks. 

http://tahomaclinic.com/green-medicine-radio-shows/

Number is given if you listen to one of the show segments.  It's on Saturdays from 10 am to noon Washington time.

Thanks for the Reddit tip.  LOL.  Yes, I will not be messaging him about treatment questions.  I am certain he would ignore them anyways.   And for the Jonathan Wright nugget.  Both men are giants in the field.
Age: 55, Ht: 5'08", Wt: 155 lbs
Protocol: 25 mg T Cyp + 25 IU HCG M,W,F + 2 clicks T Cream + 15mg DHEA + 15mg Pregnenalone daily.
12/2018 test results: TT: 1054 ng/dL (264-916), FT: 17.2 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 21.6 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0)

Kierkegaard

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2017, 03:51:40 am »
I searched Reddit using this term and didn't get much  author:marianco.

What's the trick to finding the rest of Mariano's posts?

reddit.com/user/marianco

It goes without saying that it's *not* cool to message him and ask medical questions.

However, I've recently found that Dr Jonathan Wright, who exceeds even Dr Mariano, has a live call-in show to answer medical questions, including your own specific medical problems, where he offers information totally free of charge for up to a five minute answer -- and you can call back multiple times over a few weeks. 

http://tahomaclinic.com/green-medicine-radio-shows/

Number is given if you listen to one of the show segments.  It's on Saturdays from 10 am to noon Washington time.

Thanks for the Reddit tip.  LOL.  Yes, I will not be messaging him about treatment questions.  I am certain he would ignore them anyways.   And for the Jonathan Wright nugget.  Both men are giants in the field.

There are people who have called into that show at least twice and probably more.  There are many times when Dr Wright is like (in his hilarious quirky way) "well, you're going to have to hear me keep talking unless someone calls in," meaning the lines are far from heavy.
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

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Re: Dr Mariano: Vitamin B12 Depletes Nitric Oxide
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2017, 03:51:40 am »