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Author Topic: Lower Quercetin and Iodine Doses = Feeling Worse = Lessons for "High Estrogen"  (Read 7022 times)

Kierkegaard

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Okay, I'm getting testing done next week (the most friggin' comprehensive testing ever -- literally 3 pages per Mariano, who is awesome) and Mariano asked me to try dropping my iodine dose from 6 mg to 2.5 mg (one drop if Lugol's) and also try stopping quercetin because I'm getting tryptase and histamine pulled (quercetin is a potent mast cell regulator, so much so that it's prescribed for people with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome).  Also, because for the last lab pull I ended up with significantly lower than usual free thyroid levels while on a full dose of quercetin (4 pills/day of Q, which is known to inhibit thyroid at least slightly), in the last few days since doing these changes (iodine to 2.5 mg and quercetin to 2 pills a day), I've been having much more noticeable anxiety.  Not cognitively; I'm feeling it more in my chest, tenser muscles, a few times of irritable bowel, things like that.  I've also been retaining more water and weighing more as a result.  All these symptoms are clearcut "high estrogen" symptoms for me.

Before making these changes I had increased my testosterone dose from 26 mg E3D to 34 mg E3D because my last lab showed low total testosterone and estradiol.  Before making the drops in iodine and quercetin, and after adding PQQ and alpha lipoic acid (for mitochondrial function per Mariano's rec), I was feeling *much better* than I have been -- and well on my way to feeling the best in maybe a full year.

Worth noting that both iodine and quercetin change estrogen metabolism: iodine through draining away 16-hydroxyestrone in favor of estriol (good), and quercetin does it through more peripheral pathways I don't quite understand, but I think the main metabolite of estradiol reduced is 2-hydroxyestradiol, as can be seen here:



From this study: http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/42/1/82

Also helpful for understanding iodine metabolism via 16-OHE:



So what can I conclude?  Since I've kept all other variables constant, lowering quercetin and iodine seems clearly to contribute to "high estrogen" symptoms.  Yet another reason to think it's not about "absolute" estradiol numbers, but also and in at least some cases more importantly (17b) estradiol metabolites, i.e., how your body processes estrogen.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 09:57:31 pm by Kierkegaard »
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electrify

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Your discussion of metabolites is really interesting cause in terms of absolute sensitive E2 test #s I don't really notice much whether its in the 20s or 30s.

However, my 2-OH-E1 and 2-OH-E2 were slightly high on my dutch urine test.

The thing is I sort of gave up on modulating E2 a long time ago. Im afraid to try CDG due to the way it influences clearance of other hormones as Cat on this forum has pointed out.

But Iodine/Se on the other hand seems ok.

I don't like quercetin or DIM due to potential effects on DHT.
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Kierkegaard

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Your discussion of metabolites is really interesting cause in terms of absolute sensitive E2 test #s I don't really notice much whether its in the 20s or 30s.

However, my 2-OH-E1 and 2-OH-E2 were slightly high on my dutch urine test.

The thing is I sort of gave up on modulating E2 a long time ago. Im afraid to try CDG due to the way it influences clearance of other hormones as Cat on this forum has pointed out.

But Iodine/Se on the other hand seems ok.

I don't like quercetin or DIM due to potential effects on DHT.

You could always add creatine to the mix, which would offset any losses in DHT.
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

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Joe Sixpack

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Okay, I'm getting testing done next week (the most friggin' comprehensive testing ever -- literally 3 pages per Mariano, who is awesome) and Mariano asked me to try dropping my iodine dose from 6 mg to 2.5 mg (one drop if Lugol's) and also try stopping quercetin because I'm getting tryptase and histamine pulled (quercetin is a potent mast cell regulator, so much so that it's prescribed for people with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome).  Also, because for the last lab pull I ended up with significantly lower than usual free thyroid levels while on a full dose of quercetin (4 pills/day of Q, which is known to inhibit thyroid at least slightly), in the last few days since doing these changes (iodine to 2.5 mg and quercetin to 2 pills a day), I've been having much more noticeable anxiety.  Not cognitively; I'm feeling it more in my chest, tenser muscles, a few times of irritable bowel, things like that.  I've also been retaining more water and weighing more as a result.  All these symptoms are clearcut "high estrogen" symptoms for me.

Before making these changes I had increased my testosterone dose from 26 mg E3D to 34 mg E3D because my last lab showed low total testosterone and estradiol.  Before making the drops in iodine and quercetin, and after adding PQQ and alpha lipoic acid (for mitochondrial function per Mariano's rec), I was feeling *much better* than I have been -- and well on my way to feeling the best in maybe a full year.

Worth noting that both iodine and quercetin change estrogen metabolism: iodine through draining away 16-hydroxyestrone in favor of estriol (good), and quercetin does it through more peripheral pathways I don't quite understand, but I think the main metabolite of estradiol reduced is 2-hydroxyestradiol, as can be seen here:



From this study: http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/42/1/82

Also helpful for understanding iodine metabolism via 16-OHE:



So what can I conclude?  Since I've kept all other variables constant, lowering quercetin and iodine seems clearly to contribute to "high estrogen" symptoms.  Yet another reason to think it's not about "absolute" estradiol numbers, but also and in at least some cases more importantly (17b) estradiol metabolites, i.e., how your body processes estrogen.
Does higher E do anything to your sleep quality?
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PeakT

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Osprey:  Did you read this on the mast cell inhibition?
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PeakT

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Okay, I'm getting testing done next week (the most friggin' comprehensive testing ever -- literally 3 pages per Mariano, who is awesome) and Mariano asked me to try dropping my iodine dose from 6 mg to 2.5 mg (one drop if Lugol's) and also try stopping quercetin because I'm getting tryptase and histamine pulled (quercetin is a potent mast cell regulator, so much so that it's prescribed for people with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome).  Also, because for the last lab pull I ended up with significantly lower than usual free thyroid levels while on a full dose of quercetin (4 pills/day of Q, which is known to inhibit thyroid at least slightly), in the last few days since doing these changes (iodine to 2.5 mg and quercetin to 2 pills a day), I've been having much more noticeable anxiety.  Not cognitively; I'm feeling it more in my chest, tenser muscles, a few times of irritable bowel, things like that.  I've also been retaining more water and weighing more as a result.  All these symptoms are clearcut "high estrogen" symptoms for me.

Before making these changes I had increased my testosterone dose from 26 mg E3D to 34 mg E3D because my last lab showed low total testosterone and estradiol.  Before making the drops in iodine and quercetin, and after adding PQQ and alpha lipoic acid (for mitochondrial function per Mariano's rec), I was feeling *much better* than I have been -- and well on my way to feeling the best in maybe a full year.

Worth noting that both iodine and quercetin change estrogen metabolism: iodine through draining away 16-hydroxyestrone in favor of estriol (good), and quercetin does it through more peripheral pathways I don't quite understand, but I think the main metabolite of estradiol reduced is 2-hydroxyestradiol, as can be seen here:



From this study: http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/42/1/82

Also helpful for understanding iodine metabolism via 16-OHE:



So what can I conclude?  Since I've kept all other variables constant, lowering quercetin and iodine seems clearly to contribute to "high estrogen" symptoms.  Yet another reason to think it's not about "absolute" estradiol numbers, but also and in at least some cases more importantly (17b) estradiol metabolites, i.e., how your body processes estrogen.

K:  I know you're talking about estradiol here, but quick question:  have you ever seen anything on physiological dosing for ALA?  I've never been to find that anywhere?

Also, what dose does he you on with PQQ?  I got a headache one time trying it, but I thought maybe I took too much.
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And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
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Kierkegaard

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@Joe, yeah high E2/poor metabolism causes anxiety and insomnia issues in a dose-dependent manner for T after a certain threshold.

@Peak, I've also wondered about the dosing for ALA.  I've heard a few docs recommend 1-2 grams per day.  Dr Mariano recs 600 mg, but I'm sure he's down with increasing the dose (as he is with most things).  I also take 20 mg of PQQ from Jarrows.  I tried it a year ago when I was feeling much worse and it ended up just making me wake up after 6 or 7 hours even though I was still not fully rested relative to my condition.  Now it makes me feel more energy and shaves off a few hours of my sometimes 10 or 12 hour natural marathons. 
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Osprey

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Mast cells have receptors for estradiol (as well as for progesterone and many, many other things). When mast cells degranulate they release over a hundred different mediators, among them is renin which through a chain of reactions leads to increased norepinephrine.

By blocking the release of some mast cell mediators the quercetin can have effects far beyond whatever it is doing to estrogen metabolism.

Kierkegaard

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Mast cells have receptors for estradiol (as well as for progesterone and many, many other things). When mast cells degranulate they release over a hundred different mediators, among them is renin which through a chain of reactions leads to increased norepinephrine.

By blocking the release of some mast cell mediators the quercetin can have effects far beyond whatever it is doing to estrogen metabolism.

Did you get all that from the Afrin book?  Still haven't quite finished it yet.

So in this case, it's quite possible that if quercetin has a seeming anti-estrogenic effect and works in ways other than just obviously with lowering histamine, mast cell problems could be the real issue and not estrogen per se?
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

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Osprey

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Mast cells have receptors for estradiol (as well as for progesterone and many, many other things). When mast cells degranulate they release over a hundred different mediators, among them is renin which through a chain of reactions leads to increased norepinephrine.

By blocking the release of some mast cell mediators the quercetin can have effects far beyond whatever it is doing to estrogen metabolism.

Did you get all that from the Afrin book?  Still haven't quite finished it yet.

So in this case, it's quite possible that if quercetin has a seeming anti-estrogenic effect and works in ways other than just obviously with lowering histamine, mast cell problems could be the real issue and not estrogen per se?

Part from this paper https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377947/ and part from Afrin's book page 22 of the print edition.

Kierkegaard

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Mast cells have receptors for estradiol (as well as for progesterone and many, many other things). When mast cells degranulate they release over a hundred different mediators, among them is renin which through a chain of reactions leads to increased norepinephrine.

By blocking the release of some mast cell mediators the quercetin can have effects far beyond whatever it is doing to estrogen metabolism.

Did you get all that from the Afrin book?  Still haven't quite finished it yet.

So in this case, it's quite possible that if quercetin has a seeming anti-estrogenic effect and works in ways other than just obviously with lowering histamine, mast cell problems could be the real issue and not estrogen per se?

Part from this paper https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377947/ and part from Afrin's book page 22 of the print edition.

Thanks!  Same page as when he's doing the long intro case study and it also talks about thyroid storm?
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PeakT

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@Joe, yeah high E2/poor metabolism causes anxiety and insomnia issues in a dose-dependent manner for T after a certain threshold.

@Peak, I've also wondered about the dosing for ALA.  I've heard a few docs recommend 1-2 grams per day.  Dr Mariano recs 600 mg, but I'm sure he's down with increasing the dose (as he is with most things).  I also take 20 mg of PQQ from Jarrows.  I tried it a year ago when I was feeling much worse and it ended up just making me wake up after 6 or 7 hours even though I was still not fully rested relative to my condition.  Now it makes me feel more energy and shaves off a few hours of my sometimes 10 or 12 hour natural marathons.

 Yeah I find it hard to believe that the body makes anything near 600 mg of ALA.   I would guess that  that large of a dose is to achieve some kind of clinical effect such as blood sugar and insulin control rather than to what is life due to aging and door the stressors of modern life.
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 Yeah I find it hard to believe that the body makes anything near 600 mg of ALA.   I would guess that  that large of a dose is to achieve some kind of clinical effect such as blood sugar and insulin control rather than to what is life due to aging and door the stressors of modern life.

Oral dosing and natural production are seldom related. We usually dose high so something useful gets past the digestion and the liver. 

With ALA dosages differ with racemic product (S- and R- isomers combined) @300-600mg daily and the product with just R @100-200mg daily. The S form is biologically inactive and competes with the R in every way. I read once (no link - sorry) mitochondria adsorb it in place of R and can't always get rid of it.
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PeakT

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 Yeah I find it hard to believe that the body makes anything near 600 mg of ALA.   I would guess that  that large of a dose is to achieve some kind of clinical effect such as blood sugar and insulin control rather than to what is life due to aging and door the stressors of modern life.

Oral dosing and natural production are seldom related. We usually dose high so something useful gets past the digestion and the liver. 

With ALA dosages differ with racemic product (S- and R- isomers combined) @300-600mg daily and the product with just R @100-200mg daily. The S form is biologically inactive and competes with the R in every way. I read once (no link - sorry) mitochondria adsorb it in place of R and can't always get rid of it.

Thx Torrential.  You gave me some good stuff to look up.
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Dr. John Crisler

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I'm trying to find a well-worded way to express an idea to you.

You can't really takew a supplement, and follow it through pathways as it it were operational engineering. It's just way more complicated than that. And when I see people actually graphing these changes, it reinforces this departure from the reality of the situation.

IOW, it's not like opeartional engineering. Just knowing the pathways does not come close to describing reality.

There are many changes which occur with the addition, or change in dosing, of a supplement/medication. Deficiencies need to be cleared (Iodine and Vit D are good examples), enzyme levels change--and so the flow through the pathways--receptor up and downregulation, etc etc.

I guess what I am saying is you can't take these things too literally. There is a quantum nature to biological systems.

Am I making sense?

BTW, your exact post will now result in several new slides being added to my new "Quantum Interventional Endocrinology" lecture, which I will be delivering at AMMG national convention in Tucson on Nov 2, 2017.

Thank you for the inspiration!

Questions? This thread has REALLY caught my attention.

Okay, I'm getting testing done next week (the most friggin' comprehensive testing ever -- literally 3 pages per Mariano, who is awesome) and Mariano asked me to try dropping my iodine dose from 6 mg to 2.5 mg (one drop if Lugol's) and also try stopping quercetin because I'm getting tryptase and histamine pulled (quercetin is a potent mast cell regulator, so much so that it's prescribed for people with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome).  Also, because for the last lab pull I ended up with significantly lower than usual free thyroid levels while on a full dose of quercetin (4 pills/day of Q, which is known to inhibit thyroid at least slightly), in the last few days since doing these changes (iodine to 2.5 mg and quercetin to 2 pills a day), I've been having much more noticeable anxiety.  Not cognitively; I'm feeling it more in my chest, tenser muscles, a few times of irritable bowel, things like that.  I've also been retaining more water and weighing more as a result.  All these symptoms are clearcut "high estrogen" symptoms for me.

Before making these changes I had increased my testosterone dose from 26 mg E3D to 34 mg E3D because my last lab showed low total testosterone and estradiol.  Before making the drops in iodine and quercetin, and after adding PQQ and alpha lipoic acid (for mitochondrial function per Mariano's rec), I was feeling *much better* than I have been -- and well on my way to feeling the best in maybe a full year.

Worth noting that both iodine and quercetin change estrogen metabolism: iodine through draining away 16-hydroxyestrone in favor of estriol (good), and quercetin does it through more peripheral pathways I don't quite understand, but I think the main metabolite of estradiol reduced is 2-hydroxyestradiol, as can be seen here:



From this study: http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/42/1/82

Also helpful for understanding iodine metabolism via 16-OHE:



So what can I conclude?  Since I've kept all other variables constant, lowering quercetin and iodine seems clearly to contribute to "high estrogen" symptoms.  Yet another reason to think it's not about "absolute" estradiol numbers, but also and in at least some cases more importantly (17b) estradiol metabolites, i.e., how your body processes estrogen.
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NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

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