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Author Topic: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG  (Read 3171 times)

PakMan

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DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« on: November 16, 2017, 05:43:52 am »
Instead of AI's which don't work has any one tried this?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17931384

"..In contrast, DHT reduced by 50% (p < 0.01) the E2 peak in response to hCG"

"..DHT directly reduces testicular aromatase activity that combined with its antigonadotropic effect leads to the gain in the symptomatic treatment of gynaecomastia"
Age: 46, HT: 5' 7'', WT: 75 kg

Jan 16 to Oct 16 - Test Enanthate (35mg 2x/week)
Oct 16 to Feb 17 - HCG (500iu 2x/Week)
Feb 17 - Test Propionate (25mg only 2 injections 4 days apart)
Aug 2017 onwards (Astaxanthin + other oils, supplements)
Dec 2017 Low dose TRT (25 mg twice a week)
Nothing from Jan 1, 2019

21/08/2017 8:10 PM
Total T = 271 ng/dl  (Range 160 - 726)
LH = 5.15 mIU/ml  (Range 0.8 - 7.6)

PeakT

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2017, 11:20:35 am »
Instead of AI's which don't work has any one tried this?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17931384

"..In contrast, DHT reduced by 50% (p < 0.01) the E2 peak in response to hCG"

"..DHT directly reduces testicular aromatase activity that combined with its antigonadotropic effect leads to the gain in the symptomatic treatment of gynaecomastia"

That is interesting.  I wonder if that is why the guys on topicals (who usually have higher DHT proportionately) don't seem to have estradiol problems?
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2017, 11:20:35 am »


Ausguy222

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2017, 10:07:31 pm »
Yes, steroid guys do this all the time. DHT is an anti-estrogen of sorts itself, but it is not strong enough to compare to an actual AI.

Guys often use purer DHT compounds - like Masteron and Proviron - as AI's so long as the T dose is low.

I have used both, but still needed a little AI. Couldn't replace completely.

Many people seem to be able to use them in place of one completely though, if their T dose is low enough. Then again people can use no AI either, if their dose is low enough. So who knows where the crossover point is. Everyone's different.

Forty2

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 03:51:36 pm »
Yes, steroid guys do this all the time. DHT is an anti-estrogen of sorts itself, but it is not strong enough to compare to an actual AI.

Guys often use purer DHT compounds - like Masteron and Proviron - as AI's so long as the T dose is low.

I have used both, but still needed a little AI. Couldn't replace completely.

Many people seem to be able to use them in place of one completely though, if their T dose is low enough. Then again people can use no AI either, if their dose is low enough. So who knows where the crossover point is. Everyone's different.

Does Proviron raise serum DHT? I read somewhere that it doesn't.

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 03:51:36 pm »


PakMan

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2017, 06:49:05 pm »
Yes, steroid guys do this all the time. DHT is an anti-estrogen of sorts itself, but it is not strong enough to compare to an actual AI.

Guys often use purer DHT compounds - like Masteron and Proviron - as AI's so long as the T dose is low.

I have used both, but still needed a little AI. Couldn't replace completely.

Many people seem to be able to use them in place of one completely though, if their T dose is low enough. Then again people can use no AI either, if their dose is low enough. So who knows where the crossover point is. Everyone's different.

Does Proviron raise serum DHT? I read somewhere that it doesn't.

Proviron is a sort of synthetic DHT. It wouldn't raise natural DHT. 
One thing that could raise DHT is sorghum. I am having excellent results in the erection department with sorghum porridge.
Another thing that could raise DHT massively is Testosterone Propionate. But that caused really bad depression in me by killing progesterone levels. My theory is that because progesterone is the body's natural 5 alpha reductase inhibitor so lowering it would mean too high 5 alpha reductase which mean very high DHT.
Age: 46, HT: 5' 7'', WT: 75 kg

Jan 16 to Oct 16 - Test Enanthate (35mg 2x/week)
Oct 16 to Feb 17 - HCG (500iu 2x/Week)
Feb 17 - Test Propionate (25mg only 2 injections 4 days apart)
Aug 2017 onwards (Astaxanthin + other oils, supplements)
Dec 2017 Low dose TRT (25 mg twice a week)
Nothing from Jan 1, 2019

21/08/2017 8:10 PM
Total T = 271 ng/dl  (Range 160 - 726)
LH = 5.15 mIU/ml  (Range 0.8 - 7.6)

Cataceous

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2017, 06:57:37 pm »
...
Another thing that could raise DHT massively is Testosterone Propionate. But that caused really bad depression in me by killing progesterone levels. ...

What is the physiological justification for propionate being different from other esters in this regard? You still have to cleave the ester in plasma to get the testosterone to convert to DHT, and this happens with any of them.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

PakMan

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2017, 07:13:26 pm »
...
Another thing that could raise DHT massively is Testosterone Propionate. But that caused really bad depression in me by killing progesterone levels. ...

What is the physiological justification for propionate being different from other esters in this regard? You still have to cleave the ester in plasma to get the testosterone to convert to DHT, and this happens with any of them.

I don't know for sure how it does that but that is what I experienced. Other people have also experienced it.

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9798

One possible explanation is that if T is released at a faster rate it lowers progesterone (no reference for this by my lab results show below detectable range progesterone) which induces 5 AR enzyme which results in higher DHT.
Also note that DHT itself is a inducer of 5 AR so a vicious cycle starts.
and in some people like me the effect is intolerable.


Age: 46, HT: 5' 7'', WT: 75 kg

Jan 16 to Oct 16 - Test Enanthate (35mg 2x/week)
Oct 16 to Feb 17 - HCG (500iu 2x/Week)
Feb 17 - Test Propionate (25mg only 2 injections 4 days apart)
Aug 2017 onwards (Astaxanthin + other oils, supplements)
Dec 2017 Low dose TRT (25 mg twice a week)
Nothing from Jan 1, 2019

21/08/2017 8:10 PM
Total T = 271 ng/dl  (Range 160 - 726)
LH = 5.15 mIU/ml  (Range 0.8 - 7.6)

Cataceous

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2017, 07:42:14 pm »
...
One possible explanation is that if T is released at a faster rate it lowers progesterone (no reference for this by my lab results show below detectable range progesterone) which induces 5 AR enzyme which results in higher DHT.
...

This doesn't really fly. You can easily make T rise faster with larger doses of other esters. I don't dispute what you or others observed, but this doesn't mean the effect exists in general. Let me know if you run across any studies showing this phenomenon.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

Forty2

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2017, 08:26:58 pm »
Yes, steroid guys do this all the time. DHT is an anti-estrogen of sorts itself, but it is not strong enough to compare to an actual AI.

Guys often use purer DHT compounds - like Masteron and Proviron - as AI's so long as the T dose is low.

I have used both, but still needed a little AI. Couldn't replace completely.

Many people seem to be able to use them in place of one completely though, if their T dose is low enough. Then again people can use no AI either, if their dose is low enough. So who knows where the crossover point is. Everyone's different.

Does Proviron raise serum DHT? I read somewhere that it doesn't.

Proviron is a sort of synthetic DHT. It wouldn't raise natural DHT. 
One thing that could raise DHT is sorghum. I am having excellent results in the erection department with sorghum porridge.
Another thing that could raise DHT massively is Testosterone Propionate. But that caused really bad depression in me by killing progesterone levels. My theory is that because progesterone is the body's natural 5 alpha reductase inhibitor so lowering it would mean too high 5 alpha reductase which mean very high DHT.

How much sorghum are you taking? I read about sorghum on anabolicmen.com last year and then added 1 tablespoon to my protein shake each day. I must admit that I did not notice anything positive from it. Perhaps I'm not taking enough?

PakMan

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 09:50:41 pm »
Yes, steroid guys do this all the time. DHT is an anti-estrogen of sorts itself, but it is not strong enough to compare to an actual AI.

Guys often use purer DHT compounds - like Masteron and Proviron - as AI's so long as the T dose is low.

I have used both, but still needed a little AI. Couldn't replace completely.

Many people seem to be able to use them in place of one completely though, if their T dose is low enough. Then again people can use no AI either, if their dose is low enough. So who knows where the crossover point is. Everyone's different.

Does Proviron raise serum DHT? I read somewhere that it doesn't.

Proviron is a sort of synthetic DHT. It wouldn't raise natural DHT. 
One thing that could raise DHT is sorghum. I am having excellent results in the erection department with sorghum porridge.
Another thing that could raise DHT massively is Testosterone Propionate. But that caused really bad depression in me by killing progesterone levels. My theory is that because progesterone is the body's natural 5 alpha reductase inhibitor so lowering it would mean too high 5 alpha reductase which mean very high DHT.

How much sorghum are you taking? I read about sorghum on anabolicmen.com last year and then added 1 tablespoon to my protein shake each day. I must admit that I did not notice anything positive from it. Perhaps I'm not taking enough?

I boil about 3 or 4 tablespoons in water and then mix will milk and honey.
Age: 46, HT: 5' 7'', WT: 75 kg

Jan 16 to Oct 16 - Test Enanthate (35mg 2x/week)
Oct 16 to Feb 17 - HCG (500iu 2x/Week)
Feb 17 - Test Propionate (25mg only 2 injections 4 days apart)
Aug 2017 onwards (Astaxanthin + other oils, supplements)
Dec 2017 Low dose TRT (25 mg twice a week)
Nothing from Jan 1, 2019

21/08/2017 8:10 PM
Total T = 271 ng/dl  (Range 160 - 726)
LH = 5.15 mIU/ml  (Range 0.8 - 7.6)

PeakT

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2017, 09:55:45 am »
Yes, steroid guys do this all the time. DHT is an anti-estrogen of sorts itself, but it is not strong enough to compare to an actual AI.

Guys often use purer DHT compounds - like Masteron and Proviron - as AI's so long as the T dose is low.

I have used both, but still needed a little AI. Couldn't replace completely.

Many people seem to be able to use them in place of one completely though, if their T dose is low enough. Then again people can use no AI either, if their dose is low enough. So who knows where the crossover point is. Everyone's different.

One thing I have always found curious is that these do not irritate the heck out of the prostate.  You just don't read steroid guys complaining of not being able to pee very often.  Looks like maybe there is a saturation effect and perhaps this explains why this is not more of a problem?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10520572

"Estradiol and high-dose dihydrotestosterone treatment causes changes in cynomolgus monkey prostate volume and histology identical to those caused by testosterone alone."
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Ausguy222

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2017, 03:56:59 am »
Yes, steroid guys do this all the time. DHT is an anti-estrogen of sorts itself, but it is not strong enough to compare to an actual AI.

Guys often use purer DHT compounds - like Masteron and Proviron - as AI's so long as the T dose is low.

I have used both, but still needed a little AI. Couldn't replace completely.

Many people seem to be able to use them in place of one completely though, if their T dose is low enough. Then again people can use no AI either, if their dose is low enough. So who knows where the crossover point is. Everyone's different.

One thing I have always found curious is that these do not irritate the heck out of the prostate.  You just don't read steroid guys complaining of not being able to pee very often.  Looks like maybe there is a saturation effect and perhaps this explains why this is not more of a problem?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10520572

"Estradiol and high-dose dihydrotestosterone treatment causes changes in cynomolgus monkey prostate volume and histology identical to those caused by testosterone alone."

Oh they certainly can and do. I've seen a lot of guys not be able to use certain compounds (heavy androgens / DHT bases) because they provoke prostate issues. Not only physically, but documented with PSA also. I suppose it comes down to how susceptible you are. Some guys even get it on TRT levels of T, and others can escape it on 1,000, 2,000mgs + of androgens.

Ausguy222

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2017, 03:59:53 am »
Yes, steroid guys do this all the time. DHT is an anti-estrogen of sorts itself, but it is not strong enough to compare to an actual AI.

Guys often use purer DHT compounds - like Masteron and Proviron - as AI's so long as the T dose is low.

I have used both, but still needed a little AI. Couldn't replace completely.

Many people seem to be able to use them in place of one completely though, if their T dose is low enough. Then again people can use no AI either, if their dose is low enough. So who knows where the crossover point is. Everyone's different.

Does Proviron raise serum DHT? I read somewhere that it doesn't.

TBH I'm not sure. I'm sure like most compounds it would raise the value of its compound (Mesterelone) in your body only, which could be identical.

However more importantly, they both free up more Test by lowering SHBG, so more will be available to convert to DHT via 5AR instead of being bound up.

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Re: DHT to control Estradiol on HCG
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2017, 03:59:53 am »