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Author Topic: More on How SHBG Really Works  (Read 12187 times)

James

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2017, 05:31:55 pm »
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Taking anti-inflammatory supplements increases SHBG. In fact, more than 2 cups of green tea per day will do it.

They took my SHBG over 90!

It's important to note that this is not true for all men.  I drink anywhere from 3 to 9 cups of green tea per day (over 7g quality raw leaf.)  Zero increase in SHBG.  Zero as in zero-zero and not even slight.

If the anti-inflammatory supplement advice were true, all of the high anti-inflammatory supplement takers (say, a majority of the hair loss treament community & the entire anti-aging community as a whole) would see SHBG elevations, and yet they do not.

As far as green tea studies that track SHBG, most are done in Japan and in women that are post-menopausal or that have PCOS.  In these studies, the SHBG increase tops out at 1%.  For an average 30 nmol/L guy that'd boost him all the way up to... still 30 nmol/L, when rounded down.  If you guy by the ultra-high caffeine intake studies (again, in women, and coffee beats tea), you'd expect up to a 3 nmol/L boost.

I think this effect is exceedingly rare.  About as rare as a healthy male having 90 nmol/L of SHBG in the first place.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 06:21:04 pm by James »

Dr. John Crisler

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2017, 06:55:01 pm »
Quote
Taking anti-inflammatory supplements increases SHBG. In fact, more than 2 cups of green tea per day will do it.

They took my SHBG over 90!

It's important to note that this is not true for all men.  I drink anywhere from 3 to 9 cups of green tea per day (over 7g quality raw leaf.)  Zero increase in SHBG.  Zero as in zero-zero and not even slight.

If the anti-inflammatory supplement advice were true, all of the high anti-inflammatory supplement takers (say, a majority of the hair loss treament community & the entire anti-aging community as a whole) would see SHBG elevations, and yet they do not.

As far as green tea studies that track SHBG, most are done in Japan and in women that are post-menopausal or that have PCOS.  In these studies, the SHBG increase tops out at 1%.  For an average 30 nmol/L guy that'd boost him all the way up to... still 30 nmol/L, when rounded down.  If you guy by the ultra-high caffeine intake studies (again, in women, and coffee beats tea), you'd expect up to a 3 nmol/L boost.

I think this effect is exceedingly rare.  About as rare as a healthy male having 90 nmol/L of SHBG in the first place.
Please allow me to redact my statement to "CAN do it".

I have run tens of thousands of SHBG assays on my patients. Anti-oxidants can indeed elevate SHBG. But its level is a balance between more factors than we will probably ever know.

In my case, it was purely the addition of a very high anti-oxidant regimen which took my SHBG from midrange to 90+. That  really was the only change, other than the fact I had to increase my test cyp weekly dose to compensate for same--and more androgen tends to push SHBG down.

As always, every-body is different. But when guys are always wondering about their SHBG--which is what we want them to do, of course (and maybe their doctors?!)--this is indeed an important point to make.
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2017, 06:55:01 pm »


Dr. John Crisler

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2017, 06:58:48 pm »
Quote
Taking anti-inflammatory supplements increases SHBG. In fact, more than 2 cups of green tea per day will do it.

They took my SHBG over 90!

It's important to note that this is not true for all men.  I drink anywhere from 3 to 9 cups of green tea per day (over 7g quality raw leaf.)  Zero increase in SHBG.  Zero as in zero-zero and not even slight.

If the anti-inflammatory supplement advice were true, all of the high anti-inflammatory supplement takers (say, a majority of the hair loss treament community & the entire anti-aging community as a whole) would see SHBG elevations, and yet they do not.

As far as green tea studies that track SHBG, most are done in Japan and in women that are post-menopausal or that have PCOS.  In these studies, the SHBG increase tops out at 1%.  For an average 30 nmol/L guy that'd boost him all the way up to... still 30 nmol/L, when rounded down.  If you guy by the ultra-high caffeine intake studies (again, in women, and coffee beats tea), you'd expect up to a 3 nmol/L boost.

I think this effect is exceedingly rare.  About as rare as a healthy male having 90 nmol/L of SHBG in the first place.
The SHBG differences you mention really amount to nothing. It's a tough test to do reliably, so the same sample will vary after different runs through the equipment. And SHBG goes up and down several points throughout the day.

BTW, working out elevates SHBG for a time.
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

James

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2017, 07:16:08 pm »
Can you, at some point, provide the regimen? 

Anti-oxidants and lowering inflammation and inflammatory cytokines will increase SHBG, I concur.  Are you actually seeing radical increases like yours as the norm?

It's hard to imagine what mechanism could be at work behind a purely anti-oxidant based tripling(30->90 nmol/L?) of SHBG,
however.  It seems more like to be a very bad liver response to a supplement, or just overdoing supplements altogether and really taxing your liver. Even iron overload will do it, for example. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21646287

« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 07:22:59 pm by James »

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2017, 07:16:08 pm »


Dr. John Crisler

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2017, 07:17:49 pm »
Can you, at some point, provide the regimen?   

It's hard to imagine what mechanism could be at work behind a purely anti-oxidant based tripling(30->90 nmol/L?) of SHBG, versus having a very bad liver response to a supplement, or overdoing supplements altogether.  A struggling liver often responds with those kinds of outputs.
Do you mean my personal supplement list?
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NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

James

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2017, 07:26:27 pm »
Not an exhaustive one, per se, but yes.  I'm interested in the the anti-oxidant components that are responsible for your increase in SHBG.

Assuming the spike was due to anti-oxidants alone, and it's actually a positive side effect, (a happier, healthier liver) vs. the result of an overtaxed liver (my vote), then it would benefit many men here!

Dr. John Crisler

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2017, 01:01:11 pm »
Not an exhaustive one, per se, but yes.  I'm interested in the the anti-oxidant components that are responsible for your increase in SHBG.

Assuming the spike was due to anti-oxidants alone, and it's actually a positive side effect, (a happier, healthier liver) vs. the result of an overtaxed liver (my vote), then it would benefit many men here!
Well said.
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

vvs1

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2017, 02:43:07 pm »
In thinking about this more, my recollection it is actually INFLAMMATION that decreases SHBG, rather than insulin per se.

Again, there is no practical way to alter SHBG.

Interesting comment.  Notice that this study concludes insulin is the prime driver.  However, inflammation falls with weight loss as well - not just insulin - something they don't appear to account for or measure in this study.  However, insulin has been shown in vitro to stimulate SHBG and so these researchers conclude it is an independent stimulator:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7962291

"It is known that there is an inverse relationship between the serum levels of insulin and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) in women, but the relationship in men has not been reported...During weight loss, insulin levels decreased at an average rate of 6.1 microU/mL per unit decrease in BMI, a much higher slope than the positive slope vs. BMI in weight stable men. During weight loss, SHBG levels increased at an average slope of 0.43 nmol/L per unit decrease in BMI, much higher than the negative slope of 0.2 nmol/L per unit increase in BMI in weight-stable men. Values for the SHBG vs. insulin coordinates in the weight-losing subjects did not differ significantly from those expected from the SHBG vs. insulin equation in weight-stable subjects. The stability of the SHBG-insulin relationship during weight loss despite the profoundly altered relationship of each separate component to BMI strongly suggests a close metabolic link between SHBG and insulin. As SHBG is not known to alter the production or metabolism of insulin, whereas insulin has been shown in vitro to decrease the synthesis of SHBG, it seems a reasonable conclusion that the predictable inverse relationship between serum insulin and SHBG indicates that insulin controls SHBG synthesis in vivo."
Taking anti-inflammatory supplements increases SHBG. In fact, more than 2 cups of green tea per day will do it.

They took my SHBG over 90!

Did the green tea experiment have any change on estradiol or DHT?

Oldbull

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2017, 08:56:14 pm »
Serms raise my SHBG but i dont notice any difference when its 15 versus 18.

I dont think someone with genetically low SHBG can do anything to raise that.

PeakT

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2017, 10:01:17 am »
Quote
Taking anti-inflammatory supplements increases SHBG. In fact, more than 2 cups of green tea per day will do it.

They took my SHBG over 90!

It's important to note that this is not true for all men.  I drink anywhere from 3 to 9 cups of green tea per day (over 7g quality raw leaf.)  Zero increase in SHBG.  Zero as in zero-zero and not even slight.

If the anti-inflammatory supplement advice were true, all of the high anti-inflammatory supplement takers (say, a majority of the hair loss treament community & the entire anti-aging community as a whole) would see SHBG elevations, and yet they do not.

As far as green tea studies that track SHBG, most are done in Japan and in women that are post-menopausal or that have PCOS.  In these studies, the SHBG increase tops out at 1%.  For an average 30 nmol/L guy that'd boost him all the way up to... still 30 nmol/L, when rounded down.  If you guy by the ultra-high caffeine intake studies (again, in women, and coffee beats tea), you'd expect up to a 3 nmol/L boost.

I think this effect is exceedingly rare.  About as rare as a healthy male having 90 nmol/L of SHBG in the first place.
Please allow me to redact my statement to "CAN do it".

I have run tens of thousands of SHBG assays on my patients. Anti-oxidants can indeed elevate SHBG. But its level is a balance between more factors than we will probably ever know.

In my case, it was purely the addition of a very high anti-oxidant regimen which took my SHBG from midrange to 90+. That  really was the only change, other than the fact I had to increase my test cyp weekly dose to compensate for same--and more androgen tends to push SHBG down.

As always, every-body is different. But when guys are always wondering about their SHBG--which is what we want them to do, of course (and maybe their doctors?!)--this is indeed an important point to make.

Okay, this is interesting and the subject of some controversy.  And I have no idea what you were taking, but here is why your story is interesting:

Example, green tea appears to protect against liver cancer:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01635581.2017.1263754?journalCode=hnuc20

However, there are a couple of studies showing that green tea extract, which will have a much higher antioxidant profile than green tea of course, can increase the risk of liver issues:

https://www.shape.com/blogs/shape-your-life/when-green-tea-bad-thing

Why?  If you look at study #7 here, you'll see a study that shows that EGCG will cause a dose dependent decrease in glutathione, which is obviously ground zero for the liver.

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Antioxidant_Dangers.aspx

« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 10:03:57 am by PeakT »
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Dr. John Crisler

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2017, 05:15:49 pm »
Serms raise my SHBG but i dont notice any difference when its 15 versus 18.

I dont think someone with genetically low SHBG can do anything to raise that.
The estrogenic half of a SERM drug sure can elevate SHBG.

...but, from a laboratory testing standpoint, 15 and 18 really  are the same thing.
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

Dr. John Crisler

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2017, 05:20:06 pm »
Quote
Taking anti-inflammatory supplements increases SHBG. In fact, more than 2 cups of green tea per day will do it.

They took my SHBG over 90!

It's important to note that this is not true for all men.  I drink anywhere from 3 to 9 cups of green tea per day (over 7g quality raw leaf.)  Zero increase in SHBG.  Zero as in zero-zero and not even slight.

If the anti-inflammatory supplement advice were true, all of the high anti-inflammatory supplement takers (say, a majority of the hair loss treament community & the entire anti-aging community as a whole) would see SHBG elevations, and yet they do not.

As far as green tea studies that track SHBG, most are done in Japan and in women that are post-menopausal or that have PCOS.  In these studies, the SHBG increase tops out at 1%.  For an average 30 nmol/L guy that'd boost him all the way up to... still 30 nmol/L, when rounded down.  If you guy by the ultra-high caffeine intake studies (again, in women, and coffee beats tea), you'd expect up to a 3 nmol/L boost.

I think this effect is exceedingly rare.  About as rare as a healthy male having 90 nmol/L of SHBG in the first place.
Please allow me to redact my statement to "CAN do it".

I have run tens of thousands of SHBG assays on my patients. Anti-oxidants can indeed elevate SHBG. But its level is a balance between more factors than we will probably ever know.

In my case, it was purely the addition of a very high anti-oxidant regimen which took my SHBG from midrange to 90+. That  really was the only change, other than the fact I had to increase my test cyp weekly dose to compensate for same--and more androgen tends to push SHBG down.

As always, every-body is different. But when guys are always wondering about their SHBG--which is what we want them to do, of course (and maybe their doctors?!)--this is indeed an important point to make.

Okay, this is interesting and the subject of some controversy.  And I have no idea what you were taking, but here is why your story is interesting:

Example, green tea appears to protect against liver cancer:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01635581.2017.1263754?journalCode=hnuc20

However, there are a couple of studies showing that green tea extract, which will have a much higher antioxidant profile than green tea of course, can increase the risk of liver issues:

https://www.shape.com/blogs/shape-your-life/when-green-tea-bad-thing

Why?  If you look at study #7 here, you'll see a study that shows that EGCG will cause a dose dependent decrease in glutathione, which is obviously ground zero for the liver.

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Antioxidant_Dangers.aspx
Great example of the quantum nature of life.

...and why  we take things on balance.
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

SHBetaG

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2017, 12:12:48 am »
...but, from a laboratory testing standpoint, 15 and 18 really  are the same thing.

Huh, I've been really consistent with my SHBG: 13, 12, 10, 10, 10, 11.

BTW, how is SHBG supposed to fluctuate throughout the day? Doesn't it have a pretty long half-life? Can the liver just produce massive amounts of it suddenly? And can it somehow be eliminated fast? Am I missing something?

HRT Guru

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2017, 07:29:54 am »
...but, from a laboratory testing standpoint, 15 and 18 really  are the same thing.

Huh, I've been really consistent with my SHBG: 13, 12, 10, 10, 10, 11.

BTW, how is SHBG supposed to fluctuate throughout the day? Doesn't it have a pretty long half-life? Can the liver just produce massive amounts of it suddenly? And can it somehow be eliminated fast? Am I missing something?

The Dr is stating that and SHBG of 15 or 18 are statistically the same reading in response to the person that thought he'd feel something good, or bad, between the two.

Dr. John Crisler

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2017, 12:34:48 pm »
...but, from a laboratory testing standpoint, 15 and 18 really  are the same thing.

Huh, I've been really consistent with my SHBG: 13, 12, 10, 10, 10, 11.

BTW, how is SHBG supposed to fluctuate throughout the day? Doesn't it have a pretty long half-life? Can the liver just produce massive amounts of it suddenly? And can it somehow be eliminated fast? Am I missing something?

The Dr is stating that and SHBG of 15 or 18 are statistically the same reading in response to the person that thought he'd feel something good, or bad, between the two.
yes, sir.

I have seen the same blood sample run twice, at the same lab, at the same time, and report back 10 points from each other. SHBG appears to be a difficult assay to run consistently.
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

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Re: More on How SHBG Really Works
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2017, 12:34:48 pm »