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Author Topic: Gobsmacked!!!!  (Read 16219 times)

seppuku

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Gobsmacked!!!!
« on: May 08, 2013, 06:53:02 pm »
Ok. I'm a 41 year old male, in good muscular shape (at least i think) and have been weight lifting for over 20 years. Not superman, but i can do triples in the deadlift with weights in the mid 500 pounds. Bit of a belly but not much, my abs will show if i flex but there is some fat around them (i'm guessing i've probably got more visceral fat. Anyhow, while i was at the dics a couple of weeks ago on an unrelated matter, i asked if i could have some blood work done. She agreed (i told her i was feeling a bit run down), and put me down for a testosteone test plus thyroid, cholesterol etc. Well i went in today, expecting her to tell me my test was at lesst mid range maybe higher. I thought i'd get "oh your cholestrol is high", but no. All tests came back great except one (can you guess it?). My test level was 11.4nmol/l (i'm in the uk so for usa figures thats 329ng/dl. "That's fine" shes said, so i pointed out i'd read at my age it should be nearer 23.14 (667). She's going to let me have another test next week. I asked if i could see a uroligist if it's the same (she told me it would be an endo). She also said "they wont treat that you know". So. What am i to do?. My only option i can see is self administration by the needle. I was so hoping

seppuku

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2013, 07:01:37 pm »
Sorry, using a phone to post is not easy, and i couldn't finish that last sentence. I meant to say i was so hoping my test level would come back actually high. I wanted the mental boost from knowing that. Instead it's done the opposite. Any input from others would be welcome, but i'm seriously considering self administration if my next test comes back low (knowing i'll get no joy from an nhs endo seeing as i'm in range). I even (lied) and said i was nodding off at work and have no interest in the wife. She said she's putting in a cortisol blood test in there too. Oh above i wrote 'dic' not 'doc'. Not sure now what's correct!

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2013, 07:01:37 pm »


PeakT

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2013, 07:08:02 pm »
Ok. I'm a 41 year old male, in good muscular shape (at least i think) and have been weight lifting for over 20 years. Not superman, but i can do triples in the deadlift with weights in the mid 500 pounds. Bit of a belly but not much, my abs will show if i flex but there is some fat around them (i'm guessing i've probably got more visceral fat. Anyhow, while i was at the dics a couple of weeks ago on an unrelated matter, i asked if i could have some blood work done. She agreed (i told her i was feeling a bit run down), and put me down for a testosteone test plus thyroid, cholesterol etc. Well i went in today, expecting her to tell me my test was at lesst mid range maybe higher. I thought i'd get "oh your cholestrol is high", but no. All tests came back great except one (can you guess it?). My test level was 11.4nmol/l (i'm in the uk so for usa figures thats 329ng/dl. "That's fine" shes said, so i pointed out i'd read at my age it should be nearer 23.14 (667). She's going to let me have another test next week. I asked if i could see a uroligist if it's the same (she told me it would be an endo). She also said "they wont treat that you know". So. What am i to do?. My only option i can see is self administration by the needle. I was so hoping

500 pounds?!?  Man, you don't need to dolly to move that frig, do you?

Sorry to hear about the T.  Your reading is right where I was at for years.  I don't how much you're on this forum, but the NHS is notoriously problematic when it comes to treating low testosterone.  In fact, they often will not treat at almost any level.

How do you solve it?  Well, our own illustrious Mr. Magoo had some ideas as to how to get the ball rolling:

https://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=658.0

The only other thing I can think of is that you can ask for testing for anemia and bone loss.  If these prove to be an issue, then you've got a medical justification for asking for T therapy. 

Here is a UK lab that someone brought up:  (I know nothing personally about it.)

https://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=456.30
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

PeakT

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2013, 07:16:21 pm »
Sorry, using a phone to post is not easy, and i couldn't finish that last sentence. I meant to say i was so hoping my test level would come back actually high. I wanted the mental boost from knowing that. Instead it's done the opposite. Any input from others would be welcome, but i'm seriously considering self administration if my next test comes back low (knowing i'll get no joy from an nhs endo seeing as i'm in range). I even (lied) and said i was nodding off at work and have no interest in the wife. She said she's putting in a cortisol blood test in there too. Oh above i wrote 'dic' not 'doc'. Not sure now what's correct!

Well, you know what I'm going to say: 

Self-administration is trickier than you might think.  Here's just a few things to think about:

--Red blood cell counts, estradiol and probably PSA need to be monitored.

--You need to learn proper technique for injecting.  See #3 here:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Risks

--You may need Arimidex

I know how you feel, but it's better if you can put the time in and find a good doc.

Also, are you int'd in having kids?
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2013, 07:16:21 pm »


seppuku

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2013, 07:54:13 pm »
Thanks for your speedy reply Peak, i've only just come back from the docs so i'm still in shock!! With regards to kids, i've bred two now and that's enough!! Being the nhs they only tested total t, not free. I wonder if that would have given a satisfactory result? Who knows. I was amazed i got a test at all from them! With regards to my weight lifting, it's taken me 20 years to get to that level! I'll read through those links you put, thanks. Maybe if my next test comes back low i could try some arimidex therapy (i can easily get that and clomid). Only thing is i doubt i could just turn up to my docs, explain i've been experimenting and ask for more tests to see if it was working! I'd have to go by feel (i tried some clomid last year (even though i had no clue of my levels - i know, irresponsible)), wasn't keen on the ed it gave me though (on any dosage, ie 12.5mg).  Just not sure whst to do now. I've felt for years i was lacking that certain 'umph' in my life. I think lifting weights acts as a way of overcompensating. I just have very little drive for anything else.

mrmagoo2010

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2013, 09:53:52 pm »
according to this http://www.bssm.org.uk/downloads/UK_Guidelines_Androgens_Male_2010.pdf

Anyone below a level of 12, is entitled for a free trial of TRT, so print that off and show them... It should at least make them listen more, or at least test for LH/FSH etc My NHS doc told me that if LH is fine then estrogen wont be high, so I just paid for a private blood test myself. I'm 28 and my t level was 14, then it boosted up to 18.7 ( 8-29 ) after some vitamin d and zinc supplementation. What was your TSH number?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 09:56:54 pm by mrmagoo2010 »

seppuku

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2013, 11:33:36 pm »
Thanks mrmgoo, i'll print that file off and take it in when i get the results of my next test. I'm in for a repeat test next Friday. This time it's at 9:30, as i complained i had to wait till mid day last time (i believe diurnal rythmns of testosterone mean it could be lower after 12am). My tsh was ok actually, coming in at 2.0 i think (paperwork is in bedroom and wife's asleep).

PeakT

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 01:49:10 am »
Thanks mrmgoo, i'll print that file off and take it in when i get the results of my next test. I'm in for a repeat test next Friday. This time it's at 9:30, as i complained i had to wait till mid day last time (i believe diurnal rythmns of testosterone mean it could be lower after 12am). My tsh was ok actually, coming in at 2.0 i think (paperwork is in bedroom and wife's asleep).

If you ever use this and it works, let me know as it's great info for everyone across the Atlantic...

Yes, your testosterone was probably 10-20% lower than peak:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Daily
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

399

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2013, 02:16:16 am »
btw, i might just throw out that as peak always likes to say, some guys feel fine with relatively low T, and some guys don't.  so if you are so surprised and shocked by your result maybe you werent experiencing any symptoms, so you might consider trying to get your T up through natural means, ie diet, sleep, vitamin d, zma, etc and not bothering with hrt.  its more important how you feel than what a number says, imho

seppuku

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 08:27:33 am »
Peak - thanks for that, my blood was drawn at approx 12pm. It was supposed to be 11:15, but there was a lot of hold ups in the surgery. Actually that's made me think - i was getting a bit stressed due to this, and i wasn't exactly looking forward to the actual blood draw either (i know, pussy!). Having read that things like being in the company of a hot woman, or looking at porn, and even watching your favorite team win a game can raise your test level (and i'm guessing this is an instant reaction) - could sitting in a long queue, 45min past your appointment getting frustrated and slightly anxious about having a needle shoved in you have the opposite effect? Just a thought..

@399 - I've been a supplement junkie for years, and at 41 i'm starting to wonder (regardless of studies) if they do anything. But, i take cod liver oil, extra vit d3, magnesium citrate, zinc citrate, vit c, low dose b complex, low dose sublingual dhea, creatine, brazil nuts (for selenium). Also on occasion use d aspartic acid, taurine ('studies' show it raises test, at least in rats), gingko, muccuna pruriens, deprenyl, low dose melatonin. And so on. Maybe my house would look better if i'd saved the money over the years. All this by the way is why i was expecting a mid to maybe high testosterone score. I wanted to know out of interest! I did think my thyroid might come back low though (it didn't). As to coping well with low test, i think it's more a case of if it's always been low(ish), then you wouldn't know how much better it would feel with higher levels.

PeakT

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 04:10:56 pm »
Peak - thanks for that, my blood was drawn at approx 12pm. It was supposed to be 11:15, but there was a lot of hold ups in the surgery. Actually that's made me think - i was getting a bit stressed due to this, and i wasn't exactly looking forward to the actual blood draw either (i know, pussy!). Having read that things like being in the company of a hot woman, or looking at porn, and even watching your favorite team win a game can raise your test level (and i'm guessing this is an instant reaction) - could sitting in a long queue, 45min past your appointment getting frustrated and slightly anxious about having a needle shoved in you have the opposite effect? Just a thought..
There are quite a few things that can lower short term testosterone levels and that's one of the reasons it's better to not go off of one read if you're on the borderline.  Example:  glucose was found to lower testosterone by about 25% post-meal, so I higher glycemic meal will likely do that as well.  Certain brain-related things can do the same as you mentioned.  Losing a competition is one that has been shown in the studies to have a short term effect.

But, all of that said, if your testosterone is in the basement and at or near hypogonadal levels, it's not going to be because you ate a lot of refined carbs a couple of hours ago.  In this case your testosterone is probably down 100% or 200% from where it should be, not 25%.

You may know this but careful with the porn.  They're starting to get evidence that it can desensitize dopamine receptors.  I'm not preaching - just giving you some recent study highlights. (Mr. Magoo is our resident expert on that one I believe.) 

@399 - I've been a supplement junkie for years, and at 41 i'm starting to wonder (regardless of studies) if they do anything. But, i take cod liver oil, extra vit d3, magnesium citrate, zinc citrate, vit c, low dose b complex, low dose sublingual dhea, creatine, brazil nuts (for selenium). Also on occasion use d aspartic acid, taurine ('studies' show it raises test, at least in rats), gingko, muccuna pruriens, deprenyl, low dose melatonin. And so on. Maybe my house would look better if i'd saved the money over the years. All this by the way is why i was expecting a mid to maybe high testosterone score. I wanted to know out of interest! I did think my thyroid might come back low though (it didn't). As to coping well with low test, i think it's more a case of if it's always been low(ish), then you wouldn't know how much better it would feel with higher levels.

I've really backed off on the supplements in the last year.  The reason?  Some of the recent study findings, such as those on carnitine and calcium for example.  From what I've seen, when you "go supraphysiological", you always have unintended results, some of which will be negative.

And, in my case, I don't see any big benefit from the great majority of supplements.  Yes, you probably need some magnesium and Vitamin D3, due to soil depletion and lack of sun exposure, respectively.  I think you can also make a good case for omega-3's and Vitamin C.  But you can get such a supercharge to your cardiovascular system and brain from plant foods that I simply don't see the need to add in almost everything else.  That's just my two cents...
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

seppuku

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2013, 04:46:05 pm »
I fully agree there. Over the years just about every new must have supplement (that i've then bought) has had follow up studies to show either neutral or even negative effects. Today though, in anticipation of next weeks blood draw i've decided to take two to three heaped traspoons of desiccated, non-defatted argentine beef liver. Just because i know it's a great food, and well, you never know i might be missing one of its trace elements. I've also just eated some prunes with my protein shake (which has coconut milk and olve oil in). All super foods in my opinion.

PeakT

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2013, 04:59:35 pm »
I fully agree there. Over the years just about every new must have supplement (that i've then bought) has had follow up studies to show either neutral or even negative effects. Today though, in anticipation of next weeks blood draw i've decided to take two to three heaped traspoons of desiccated, non-defatted argentine beef liver. Just because i know it's a great food, and well, you never know i might be missing one of its trace elements. I've also just eated some prunes with my protein shake (which has coconut milk and olve oil in). All super foods in my opinion.

Jack LaLanne always took liver tablets - I assume for the B vitamins.  However, the B profile is not really complete with those or I'd probably take them.  KAL yeast products have a much more well-rounded B profile imo, so that's what I'm currently using.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

seppuku

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2013, 05:40:42 pm »
Hi all,

Just thought i'd give you some follow up info regarding my blood test. You may remember (it's written in the top post) that i had a blood draw taken about midday that came back at 11.4nmol/l (329ng/dl). Well i had a second draw (plus cortisol) done on the 24th May. Today i went in for my results. This time i was even more shocked. Keep in mind i had taken d-aspartic acid for 12 days prior to this, which studies show should give about a 40% increase in total test after this time. And, this blood draw was done at 9:40am, so it was earlier. Well, new result = 9nmol/l (259ng/dl)!!! I'm so racked off, and just don't get it. My libido is pretty good (admittedly erections not always stay rock solid). My gym work is as good as ever. So i'm in for a third test, this one including fsh, lh, vit d and i asked for free test (not sure if she wrote that down though). Luckily my lady doc seems understanding though, asked all the relevant questions (morning erections, libido etc). She's sending me to see an endo. I said (this is the truth), i never wanted to get treatment, i just wanted to know my levels were high. I thought this would give me a mental boost. Well now this has done the opposite!!! Maybe working out actually LOWERS testosterone, i'm reading about so many weight trainers (often young) who are coming back low. Anyhow, i said to my doc i wasn't keen an gels if i had to be treated. She said she's got patients who achieve good numbers on it, but had no problems with me injecting test!! And that's from a quite elderly lady doc.

PeakT

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Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2013, 06:00:25 pm »
Hi all,

Just thought i'd give you some follow up info regarding my blood test. You may remember (it's written in the top post) that i had a blood draw taken about midday that came back at 11.4nmol/l (329ng/dl). Well i had a second draw (plus cortisol) done on the 24th May. Today i went in for my results. This time i was even more shocked. Keep in mind i had taken d-aspartic acid for 12 days prior to this, which studies show should give about a 40% increase in total test after this time. And, this blood draw was done at 9:40am, so it was earlier. Well, new result = 9nmol/l (259ng/dl)!!! I'm so racked off, and just don't get it. My libido is pretty good (admittedly erections not always stay rock solid). My gym work is as good as ever. So i'm in for a third test, this one including fsh, lh, vit d and i asked for free test (not sure if she wrote that down though). Luckily my lady doc seems understanding though, asked all the relevant questions (morning erections, libido etc). She's sending me to see an endo. I said (this is the truth), i never wanted to get treatment, i just wanted to know my levels were high. I thought this would give me a mental boost. Well now this has done the opposite!!! Maybe working out actually LOWERS testosterone, i'm reading about so many weight trainers (often young) who are coming back low. Anyhow, i said to my doc i wasn't keen an gels if i had to be treated. She said she's got patients who achieve good numbers on it, but had no problems with me injecting test!! And that's from a quite elderly lady doc.

Sorry to hear it.  I can related to a lot of your story though!  And at least you're ahead of the game cuzz you're testing, monitoring and actively seeking treatment.  It took me a couple of years of hacking to try to figure out what was wrong.

Yeah, you could lower your testosterone from overtraining of course, but question:  have you used a lot of whey over the years?

Did you see the potential risk with the topicals? 

So you've got a little old lady doc that is willing to treat you?  Make sure, if you go on injections, that she knows how to manage estradiol:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/testosterone_cypionate
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: Gobsmacked!!!!
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2013, 06:00:25 pm »