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Author Topic: Am I paying too much for my TRT?  (Read 3217 times)

kcrunner

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2018, 05:56:38 am »
That's extremely pricey, you shouldn't be paying more than about $100, these clinics are expensive! Curious what your peaks and troughs are with that huge T dosage, not many can even handle 200mg weekly. You could have them give you the prescription and go fill it where you want.

I really don't notice the low points given that by day 7 I'm still a little above 50% the original dose.  Honestly I feel great all the time now and I've dropped from 22% body fat to 14%, sex is much improved and working out more.  Only thing for me is I really have to stay on top of my estrodol, it tends to go up very quickly.  If I don't take my estrogen blocker correctly it gets out of control and I start seeing very noticeable high estrogen symptoms.

If you lift heavy and by that I mean a classic strength training program with the big compound lifts of Bench, Incline Bench, Shoulder Press, Rows, Squats, and Deadlifts, you would gain a significant amount of muscle mass with 300 mg of test cyp a week.    That is above a therapeutic dose and almost to the level of a body builders cycle.   If I was paying that kind of money for it, I would definitely be trying to maximize the benefits of it.   

That all said, you really shouldn't be on that much testosterone long term.   200 mg of test a week is typically the upper limit for that.   Moreover, you are definitely paying too much.   Find a good GP that will treat you so you are not paying so much out of pocket.   

If you have a traditional PPO, a month's worth of testosterone cyp at 200 mg of test a week, will cost you the 10 dollar copay for a prescription at the pharmacy.    If you have a high deductible health plan where you are paying for your prescriptions out of pocket, a month's worth of testosterone will cost you as little as $37.50 with a WellRx coupon.

Even if you have a high deductible plan where you are paying everything out of pocket for your treatments until you hit your deductible, its not that expensive if you find a good GP that is experienced with TRT.   Basically, every year you would looking at a total of:

$250 or so for doctors visits
$200 or so for labwork
$325 or so for testosterone
$20 dollars or so for syringes (you can order these from a supply online)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 06:01:49 am by kcrunner »
Age: 42
Height: 6,1
Weight: 178
Total Testosterone: 829 ng/dl
Free Testosterone: 22 ng/dl
Current Meds:  Levothyroxine 175mcg, Testosterone Cyp Intra-Muscular 100 mg every 7 days.
Supplements-
Multivitamin
Magnesium
Vitamin D
B Complex
Fish Oil

chainsaw

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2018, 11:14:14 am »
That's extremely pricey, you shouldn't be paying more than about $100, these clinics are expensive! Curious what your peaks and troughs are with that huge T dosage, not many can even handle 200mg weekly. You could have them give you the prescription and go fill it where you want.

I really don't notice the low points given that by day 7 I'm still a little above 50% the original dose.  Honestly I feel great all the time now and I've dropped from 22% body fat to 14%, sex is much improved and working out more.  Only thing for me is I really have to stay on top of my estrodol, it tends to go up very quickly.  If I don't take my estrogen blocker correctly it gets out of control and I start seeing very noticeable high estrogen symptoms.

If you lift heavy and by that I mean a classic strength training program with the big compound lifts of Bench, Incline Bench, Shoulder Press, Rows, Squats, and Deadlifts, you would gain a significant amount of muscle mass with 300 mg of test cyp a week.    That is above a therapeutic dose and almost to the level of a body builders cycle.   If I was paying that kind of money for it, I would definitely be trying to maximize the benefits of it.   

That all said, you really shouldn't be on that much testosterone long term.   200 mg of test a week is typically the upper limit for that.   Moreover, you are definitely paying too much.   Find a good GP that will treat you so you are not paying so much out of pocket.   

If you have a traditional PPO, a month's worth of testosterone cyp at 200 mg of test a week, will cost you the 10 dollar copay for a prescription at the pharmacy.    If you have a high deductible health plan where you are paying for your prescriptions out of pocket, a month's worth of testosterone will cost you as little as $37.50 with a WellRx coupon.

Even if you have a high deductible plan where you are paying everything out of pocket for your treatments until you hit your deductible, its not that expensive if you find a good GP that is experienced with TRT.   Basically, every year you would looking at a total of:

$250 or so for doctors visits
$200 or so for labwork
$325 or so for testosterone
$20 dollars or so for syringes (you can order these from a supply online)

Yeah I definitely need to figure something out long term and I know the dose is the upper limit but upon doing my research before starting treatment, 300mg is what I wanted and its what they gave me.  I am on a fairly traditional bodybuilding plan that incorporates all the big compound movements and I'm eating chicken, broccoli and rice in a 500 calorie deficit.  I'm currently losing about 2.5% body fat a month and gaining between 2-3 lbs of lean muscle.  I am able to track this because the clinic I am using is doing body comp readings once a month to track my progress, and I can definitely see the progress from month to month.  I know 300mg is not going to be a long term dose.  I would love to switch to a regular doctor and get everything covered under insurance but I hear they usually won't prescribe injectible test.  I have two young daughters and the last thing I want in my house is topical testosterone, just too much of a risk for my comfort.  I have not been to a urologist in probably 10 years when they were trying to fix a testicular problem I had back then.  In hindsight I now realize that the problem I had is what has now led to my low T condition.  Basically only one of my testicles is producing and one is trying to over compensate so it stays constantly swollen while the other is shrunken.  Maybe I should go see a new Urologist and explain this to them and see what they will do.   

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2018, 11:14:14 am »


Boxcar

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2018, 12:44:21 pm »
That's extremely pricey, you shouldn't be paying more than about $100, these clinics are expensive! Curious what your peaks and troughs are with that huge T dosage, not many can even handle 200mg weekly. You could have them give you the prescription and go fill it where you want.

I really don't notice the low points given that by day 7 I'm still a little above 50% the original dose.  Honestly I feel great all the time now and I've dropped from 22% body fat to 14%, sex is much improved and working out more.  Only thing for me is I really have to stay on top of my estrodol, it tends to go up very quickly.  If I don't take my estrogen blocker correctly it gets out of control and I start seeing very noticeable high estrogen symptoms.

If you lift heavy and by that I mean a classic strength training program with the big compound lifts of Bench, Incline Bench, Shoulder Press, Rows, Squats, and Deadlifts, you would gain a significant amount of muscle mass with 300 mg of test cyp a week.    That is above a therapeutic dose and almost to the level of a body builders cycle.   If I was paying that kind of money for it, I would definitely be trying to maximize the benefits of it.   

That all said, you really shouldn't be on that much testosterone long term.   200 mg of test a week is typically the upper limit for that.   Moreover, you are definitely paying too much.   Find a good GP that will treat you so you are not paying so much out of pocket.   

If you have a traditional PPO, a month's worth of testosterone cyp at 200 mg of test a week, will cost you the 10 dollar copay for a prescription at the pharmacy.    If you have a high deductible health plan where you are paying for your prescriptions out of pocket, a month's worth of testosterone will cost you as little as $37.50 with a WellRx coupon.

Even if you have a high deductible plan where you are paying everything out of pocket for your treatments until you hit your deductible, its not that expensive if you find a good GP that is experienced with TRT.   Basically, every year you would looking at a total of:

$250 or so for doctors visits
$200 or so for labwork
$325 or so for testosterone
$20 dollars or so for syringes (you can order these from a supply online)

Yeah I definitely need to figure something out long term and I know the dose is the upper limit but upon doing my research before starting treatment, 300mg is what I wanted and its what they gave me.  I am on a fairly traditional bodybuilding plan that incorporates all the big compound movements and I'm eating chicken, broccoli and rice in a 500 calorie deficit.  I'm currently losing about 2.5% body fat a month and gaining between 2-3 lbs of lean muscle.  I am able to track this because the clinic I am using is doing body comp readings once a month to track my progress, and I can definitely see the progress from month to month.  I know 300mg is not going to be a long term dose.  I would love to switch to a regular doctor and get everything covered under insurance but I hear they usually won't prescribe injectible test.  I have two young daughters and the last thing I want in my house is topical testosterone, just too much of a risk for my comfort.  I have not been to a urologist in probably 10 years when they were trying to fix a testicular problem I had back then.  In hindsight I now realize that the problem I had is what has now led to my low T condition.  Basically only one of my testicles is producing and one is trying to over compensate so it stays constantly swollen while the other is shrunken.  Maybe I should go see a new Urologist and explain this to them and see what they will do.   

I was thinking the same thing as krunner... you are probably way over the natural range for all or most of the week.  Probably not good long term.  Even in the short term, hematocrit, cholesterol and blood pressure can be dangerously high, so you definitely want to track those.  BTW, most of the body comp benefits from TRT are experienced when going from very low testosterone levels (especially sub-300, where you were), to average (600+ levels).  (Benefits continue, as you go higher, but with diminishing returns.  Which is why steroid cycles will target up to 3-4,000 testosterone levels.)  So it is possible for a guy with profoundly low testosterone to experience steroid-like changes in body comp, when on normal TRT doses.  To get a sense for what I am talking about, check out these graphs:  http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/01/intermittent-thoughts-on-building_02.html

Personally, I have replaced maybe 25 lbs of fat with muscle (hard to give an exact number, but definitely over 20lbs), with a much lower testosterone dose than you (100mg per week).  To give you another anecdote, youtube personality "bignoknow" has gone from high-dose TRT to what guys on here are taking and has had a very positive experience.

You can definitely find regular doctors, outside of a specialty clinic, who will prescribe injectable testosterone.  Urologists seem to be a better bet than endocrinologists, from what I have seen.
Age: 36
178 lbs 5'8''

Current Treatment: 50 mg testosterone cypionate IM, twice a week
Low T Symptoms: Chronic pelvic pain, and other neuropathic pain.  Mild anxiety, low energy and low motivation
Meds: Amitriptyline (for pain, not depression), Clonidine (for sleep, not blood pressure)

kcrunner

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2018, 05:48:38 am »
That's extremely pricey, you shouldn't be paying more than about $100, these clinics are expensive! Curious what your peaks and troughs are with that huge T dosage, not many can even handle 200mg weekly. You could have them give you the prescription and go fill it where you want.

I really don't notice the low points given that by day 7 I'm still a little above 50% the original dose.  Honestly I feel great all the time now and I've dropped from 22% body fat to 14%, sex is much improved and working out more.  Only thing for me is I really have to stay on top of my estrodol, it tends to go up very quickly.  If I don't take my estrogen blocker correctly it gets out of control and I start seeing very noticeable high estrogen symptoms.

If you lift heavy and by that I mean a classic strength training program with the big compound lifts of Bench, Incline Bench, Shoulder Press, Rows, Squats, and Deadlifts, you would gain a significant amount of muscle mass with 300 mg of test cyp a week.    That is above a therapeutic dose and almost to the level of a body builders cycle.   If I was paying that kind of money for it, I would definitely be trying to maximize the benefits of it.   

That all said, you really shouldn't be on that much testosterone long term.   200 mg of test a week is typically the upper limit for that.   Moreover, you are definitely paying too much.   Find a good GP that will treat you so you are not paying so much out of pocket.   

If you have a traditional PPO, a month's worth of testosterone cyp at 200 mg of test a week, will cost you the 10 dollar copay for a prescription at the pharmacy.    If you have a high deductible health plan where you are paying for your prescriptions out of pocket, a month's worth of testosterone will cost you as little as $37.50 with a WellRx coupon.

Even if you have a high deductible plan where you are paying everything out of pocket for your treatments until you hit your deductible, its not that expensive if you find a good GP that is experienced with TRT.   Basically, every year you would looking at a total of:

$250 or so for doctors visits
$200 or so for labwork
$325 or so for testosterone
$20 dollars or so for syringes (you can order these from a supply online)

Yeah I definitely need to figure something out long term and I know the dose is the upper limit but upon doing my research before starting treatment, 300mg is what I wanted and its what they gave me.  I am on a fairly traditional bodybuilding plan that incorporates all the big compound movements and I'm eating chicken, broccoli and rice in a 500 calorie deficit.  I'm currently losing about 2.5% body fat a month and gaining between 2-3 lbs of lean muscle.  I am able to track this because the clinic I am using is doing body comp readings once a month to track my progress, and I can definitely see the progress from month to month.  I know 300mg is not going to be a long term dose.  I would love to switch to a regular doctor and get everything covered under insurance but I hear they usually won't prescribe injectible test.  I have two young daughters and the last thing I want in my house is topical testosterone, just too much of a risk for my comfort.  I have not been to a urologist in probably 10 years when they were trying to fix a testicular problem I had back then.  In hindsight I now realize that the problem I had is what has now led to my low T condition.  Basically only one of my testicles is producing and one is trying to over compensate so it stays constantly swollen while the other is shrunken.  Maybe I should go see a new Urologist and explain this to them and see what they will do.   

I have never seen a urologist or HRT clinic for my hormonal issues.   I just see my GP who is a DO (I think a DO is better for this).   The office is just 8 blocks down the street from my house.   It's a multiple doctor practice and originally, when my testosterone levels were low, she referred me over to another doctor in the practice that specializes in it (just a GP though).  He started me on 200 mg of test a week for the first 8 weeks.   I had to go in for those injections.   He then had his nurse show me how to self inject, and prescribed the test cyp at 100 mg a week.   After that, I asked my doctor if she could treat me for that as well so I was not seeing her for my levothyroxine and the other doctor for testosterone.   She was cool with that.   Since then they have adjusted my dosages, and I am now on 100 mg of test cyp every 5 days which works out to be about 140 mg a week.  I have never needed an AI.   Just 2 office visits a year where its basically just a checkup and she has labs drawn, and that's it.   Most of my communication is over their App (FollowMyHealth) where I can message her, see all my results and so on.

I think this is pretty common.  Just ask around where you live for a GP that treats a lot of guys with low T.   They see so many old people all the time and stay so busy with them that they typically don't want to mess with you having to come in for every injection and thus are cool with self injecting.   
Age: 42
Height: 6,1
Weight: 178
Total Testosterone: 829 ng/dl
Free Testosterone: 22 ng/dl
Current Meds:  Levothyroxine 175mcg, Testosterone Cyp Intra-Muscular 100 mg every 7 days.
Supplements-
Multivitamin
Magnesium
Vitamin D
B Complex
Fish Oil

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2018, 05:48:38 am »


sh1209

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2018, 06:15:43 am »
I second what KC is saying, Ive lived in three states sisnce starting treatment and have never had an issue finding someone willing to treat with gels or injections. If you have good insurance, which luckily Ive always had, its really inexpensive for all of it. Insurance from what Ive encountered, wants to pay for the least expensive option, which is always injections.

chainsaw

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2018, 10:40:50 am »
Thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate it.  I haven't had anyone to talk to about this stuff since I started so its nice to hear some other experiences and opinions. 

I think maybe what I am looking for is some advice on how to talk to a new doctor about continuing treatment in a way that insurance will cover.  I have good insurance.  When I saw my regular doctor about this first he said basically that my test number wasn't low enough to be considered for treatment(272ng/dl) and that I am too young to begin treatment (I'm 32).  He actually suggested I take a B12 supplement for my symptoms, which kind of pissed me off.  Before starting treatment I had low energy levels, I was lifting but just couldn't muster the will to get to the gym more than 2-3 times a week.  I work from home and I was spending my lunch breaks napping in bed (thats not me).  I'm married with two kids and had a pretty low sex drive and performance issues compared to just a handful of years prior and my wife is very attractive and we are close.  I felt depressed and frustrated all the time.  I couldn't get my body fat down, I was up to 260lb at one point.  I was 180lbs when I was 21.  Just didn't feel like me anymore.  And the doc tells me to take B12 like I wasn't already taking a multi and drinking monsters like water...

So I'm a little skeptical about talking to another GP.  I would be interested in talking to a Urologist but I don't really know how to talk to them about it.  I don't want them to think I'm seeking injectibles like I'm trying to be a bodybuilder on steroids or something.  I just can't go back to the way it was but I can't afford to keep spending this kind of money long term. 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 10:59:01 am by chainsaw »

Cataceous

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2018, 11:16:39 am »
...  I would be interested in talking to a Urologist but I don't really know how to talk to them about it. ...

I was asking the same question a few years back when I started, but I don't think there's a good answer. Many doctors are going to be pretty unreceptive to whatever you might say. Others might do whatever you want, within reason. The urologist I talked with saw total testosterone just over 300 ng/dL and said, "That's normal." It was a useless visit, preceded by the long wait for the appointment. That kind of thing gets pretty frustrating. So it depends on your tolerance for going through a few doctors in search of one who's either very knowledgeable or who's amenable to your guidance, assuming you're up to speed on treatment options.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)SHBG ~30 nmol/L

Boxcar

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2018, 11:40:45 pm »
Thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate it.  I haven't had anyone to talk to about this stuff since I started so its nice to hear some other experiences and opinions. 

I think maybe what I am looking for is some advice on how to talk to a new doctor about continuing treatment in a way that insurance will cover.  I have good insurance.  When I saw my regular doctor about this first he said basically that my test number wasn't low enough to be considered for treatment(272ng/dl) and that I am too young to begin treatment (I'm 32).  He actually suggested I take a B12 supplement for my symptoms, which kind of pissed me off.  Before starting treatment I had low energy levels, I was lifting but just couldn't muster the will to get to the gym more than 2-3 times a week.  I work from home and I was spending my lunch breaks napping in bed (thats not me).  I'm married with two kids and had a pretty low sex drive and performance issues compared to just a handful of years prior and my wife is very attractive and we are close.  I felt depressed and frustrated all the time.  I couldn't get my body fat down, I was up to 260lb at one point.  I was 180lbs when I was 21.  Just didn't feel like me anymore.  And the doc tells me to take B12 like I wasn't already taking a multi and drinking monsters like water...

So I'm a little skeptical about talking to another GP.  I would be interested in talking to a Urologist but I don't really know how to talk to them about it.  I don't want them to think I'm seeking injectibles like I'm trying to be a bodybuilder on steroids or something.  I just can't go back to the way it was but I can't afford to keep spending this kind of money long term.

You really should not feel weird about this.  You had very low testosterone levels (2 tests under 300) with symptoms.  A doctor diagnosed you, then prescribed treatment that worked.  It is really an open-and-shut case of hypogonaism, especially if you have those old tests to document your low testosterone (should be in your medical file with the clinic, I assume).  For a good doctor, this is an easy call.  Now, you may not get the same dosage, especially if you are now testing above range.  But if your current doctor is over-prescribing, that is on him.  It does not change the fact that you have a medical condition that needs treatment.  The only reason you are looking to change doctors -- because you can't afford your current out-of-pocket care, is completely legitimate.  Your health insurance may have stricter rules about coverage, especially for the Rx, but you can still probably find a way to save money.  (If you do need to pay for the Rx yourself, check goodrx.com for good prices in your area.)
Age: 36
178 lbs 5'8''

Current Treatment: 50 mg testosterone cypionate IM, twice a week
Low T Symptoms: Chronic pelvic pain, and other neuropathic pain.  Mild anxiety, low energy and low motivation
Meds: Amitriptyline (for pain, not depression), Clonidine (for sleep, not blood pressure)

PeakT

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2018, 02:08:29 pm »
Thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate it.  I haven't had anyone to talk to about this stuff since I started so its nice to hear some other experiences and opinions. 

I think maybe what I am looking for is some advice on how to talk to a new doctor about continuing treatment in a way that insurance will cover.  I have good insurance.  When I saw my regular doctor about this first he said basically that my test number wasn't low enough to be considered for treatment(272ng/dl) and that I am too young to begin treatment (I'm 32).  He actually suggested I take a B12 supplement for my symptoms, which kind of pissed me off.  Before starting treatment I had low energy levels, I was lifting but just couldn't muster the will to get to the gym more than 2-3 times a week.  I work from home and I was spending my lunch breaks napping in bed (thats not me).  I'm married with two kids and had a pretty low sex drive and performance issues compared to just a handful of years prior and my wife is very attractive and we are close.  I felt depressed and frustrated all the time.  I couldn't get my body fat down, I was up to 260lb at one point.  I was 180lbs when I was 21.  Just didn't feel like me anymore.  And the doc tells me to take B12 like I wasn't already taking a multi and drinking monsters like water...

So I'm a little skeptical about talking to another GP.  I would be interested in talking to a Urologist but I don't really know how to talk to them about it.  I don't want them to think I'm seeking injectibles like I'm trying to be a bodybuilder on steroids or something.  I just can't go back to the way it was but I can't afford to keep spending this kind of money long term.

Lots of ideas to find doctors via the insurance-backed route here:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Hormone_Replacement_Therapy_Doctors.aspx

I've got some ideas from past threads, etc
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

kcrunner

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2018, 08:26:53 am »
Thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate it.  I haven't had anyone to talk to about this stuff since I started so its nice to hear some other experiences and opinions. 

I think maybe what I am looking for is some advice on how to talk to a new doctor about continuing treatment in a way that insurance will cover.  I have good insurance.  When I saw my regular doctor about this first he said basically that my test number wasn't low enough to be considered for treatment(272ng/dl) and that I am too young to begin treatment (I'm 32).  He actually suggested I take a B12 supplement for my symptoms, which kind of pissed me off.  Before starting treatment I had low energy levels, I was lifting but just couldn't muster the will to get to the gym more than 2-3 times a week.  I work from home and I was spending my lunch breaks napping in bed (thats not me).  I'm married with two kids and had a pretty low sex drive and performance issues compared to just a handful of years prior and my wife is very attractive and we are close.  I felt depressed and frustrated all the time.  I couldn't get my body fat down, I was up to 260lb at one point.  I was 180lbs when I was 21.  Just didn't feel like me anymore.  And the doc tells me to take B12 like I wasn't already taking a multi and drinking monsters like water...

So I'm a little skeptical about talking to another GP.  I would be interested in talking to a Urologist but I don't really know how to talk to them about it.  I don't want them to think I'm seeking injectibles like I'm trying to be a bodybuilder on steroids or something.  I just can't go back to the way it was but I can't afford to keep spending this kind of money long term.

It sounds like your GP isn't a good one for someone your age.   Even if you don't get a GP to handle your TRT, I would still find another GP.   A lot of GPs mostly treat old people these days and that is their mindset.   
Age: 42
Height: 6,1
Weight: 178
Total Testosterone: 829 ng/dl
Free Testosterone: 22 ng/dl
Current Meds:  Levothyroxine 175mcg, Testosterone Cyp Intra-Muscular 100 mg every 7 days.
Supplements-
Multivitamin
Magnesium
Vitamin D
B Complex
Fish Oil

PeakT

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Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2018, 11:45:00 am »


It sounds like your GP isn't a good one for someone your age.   Even if you don't get a GP to handle your TRT, I would still find another GP.   A lot of GPs mostly treat old people these days and that is their mindset.

Yeah, a lot of times a fertility specialist will be good and have decent experience, esp. with younger men
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: Am I paying too much for my TRT?
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2018, 11:45:00 am »