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Author Topic: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility  (Read 2161 times)

F45

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HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« on: January 03, 2018, 03:06:25 pm »
Is 25 mg of Clomid three times a week equivalent to 500 IU of HCG Monotherapy three times a week?  For increasing fertility and testosterone at the same time hopefully.

PeakT

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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2018, 05:10:12 pm »
Is 25 mg of Clomid three times a week equivalent to 500 IU of HCG Monotherapy three times a week?  For increasing fertility and testosterone at the same time hopefully.

Hmmm.  A lot of guys on Clomid will get large increases in testosterone, i.e. 700+.  My impression is that this is less common with HCG Mono guys.  What I mean is that, if you get them over 700, their estradiol is usually very high.  What I am getting at is that any comparison between the two should probably include estradiol as well.
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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2018, 05:10:12 pm »


Boxcar

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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2018, 06:52:10 pm »
It is probably going to depend on the person, because the two therapies are very different...

HCG is an LH replacement therapy.  When you start it, your body's own LH will go to zero.  Your testosterone level will then depend entirely on how efficiently your body makes testosterone, for a given dose of HCG.

With Clomid, your response will depend on both how much your body's natural LH is boosted by the drug, and by how efficiently your body produces testosterone based on that LH level.

Like Peak mentions, some guys will get a very big response from a very low dose of Clomid.  This seems to be less common with HCG.  In fact, since HCG shuts down your body's LH,  it is possible that a very low dose could LOWER your testosterone level (the same is true of TRT).  Clomid, on the other hand, should only cause testosterone to rise above your natural baseline. 
Age: 36
178 lbs 5'8''

Current Treatment: 50 mg testosterone cypionate IM, twice a week
Low T Symptoms: Chronic pelvic pain, and other neuropathic pain.  Mild anxiety, low energy and low motivation
Meds: Amitriptyline (for pain, not depression), Clonidine (for sleep, not blood pressure)

Dr. John Crisler

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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2018, 07:43:34 pm »
A major difference is HCG mimicks LH.

Clomiphene, OTOH, induce increases in both LH and FSH. It is the FSH which stimulates the Sertoli cells, which make the sperm.
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NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2018, 07:43:34 pm »


Boxcar

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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2018, 10:25:58 pm »
A major difference is HCG mimicks LH.

Clomiphene, OTOH, induce increases in both LH and FSH. It is the FSH which stimulates the Sertoli cells, which make the sperm.

Does HCG lower FSH, like TRT?  And if so, does that potentially impair fertility for a guy on HCG monotherapy (vs clomid or no therapy)?
Age: 36
178 lbs 5'8''

Current Treatment: 50 mg testosterone cypionate IM, twice a week
Low T Symptoms: Chronic pelvic pain, and other neuropathic pain.  Mild anxiety, low energy and low motivation
Meds: Amitriptyline (for pain, not depression), Clonidine (for sleep, not blood pressure)

PeakT

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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2018, 08:24:50 am »
A major difference is HCG mimicks LH.

Clomiphene, OTOH, induce increases in both LH and FSH. It is the FSH which stimulates the Sertoli cells, which make the sperm.

Does HCG lower FSH, like TRT?  And if so, does that potentially impair fertility for a guy on HCG monotherapy (vs clomid or no therapy)?

I don't see how it could, at least on average, considering Dr. Lipshultz's findings that adding HCG will increase fertility.  The study is here:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/testosterone_fertility.aspx
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Cataceous

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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2018, 08:37:03 am »
Does HCG lower FSH, like TRT?  And if so, does that potentially impair fertility for a guy on HCG monotherapy (vs clomid or no therapy)?

Yes and yes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3084535

Quote
To determine whether normal serum levels of FSH are necessary for the maintenance of quantitatively normal spermatogenesis, we first studied the effect on sperm production of selective FSH deficiency induced by chronic administration of hCG in normal men.

Quote
hCG administration alone resulted in partial suppression of the mean sperm concentration from 88 +/- 24 (+/-SEM) million/ml during the control period to 22 +/- 7 million/ml during the last 4 months of hCG treatment (P less than 0.001 compared to control values).
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

Oldbull

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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2018, 03:39:06 pm »
Doctors usually start with Hcg and then add Hmg if needed.

Dr Justin Saya, MD

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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2018, 11:43:56 pm »
A *very* generalized ranking of relative fertilities (with top being most fertile):

1. Clomid/SERM treatment
2(A). HCG + HMG (or lyophilized FSH)
2(B). Baseline no treatment (no HPTA suppression via TRT, AAS, HCG mono, etc) - assuming no significant degree of primary/secondary/tertiary dysfunction.
3(A). HCG monotherapy (does in fact result in HPTA suppression, especially at higher doses, but *may* move up to #2 in select cases of SECONDARY/TERTIARY hypogonadism)
3(B). TRT + HCG (as we know many men are still able to maintain adequate fertility to conceive)
4. TRT/AAS with no concurrent HCG.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 11:51:19 pm by Dr Justin Saya, MD »
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NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Comments on this forum do not constitute or establish a physician-patient relationship. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

Dr. John Crisler

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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2018, 05:57:54 pm »
A *very* generalized ranking of relative fertilities (with top being most fertile):

1. Clomid/SERM treatment
2(A). HCG + HMG (or lyophilized FSH)
2(B). Baseline no treatment (no HPTA suppression via TRT, AAS, HCG mono, etc) - assuming no significant degree of primary/secondary/tertiary dysfunction.
3(A). HCG monotherapy (does in fact result in HPTA suppression, especially at higher doses, but *may* move up to #2 in select cases of SECONDARY/TERTIARY hypogonadism)
3(B). TRT + HCG (as we know many men are still able to maintain adequate fertility to conceive)
4. TRT/AAS with no concurrent HCG.
That's a great post.
Physician in Age Management Medicine private practice. www.DrJohnCrisler.com

NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

Cataceous

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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2018, 07:53:57 am »
...
That's a great post.

Indeed, it's one to bookmark.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

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Re: HCG Monotherapy to Clomid Ratio For Fertility
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2018, 07:53:57 am »