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Author Topic: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????  (Read 5934 times)

Oldbull

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2018, 07:56:53 am »
I tried topical DHT, to no effect.  Diet seems to have some impact, although it is inconsistent.  There is some research indicating that IGF-1 and insulin activate androgen receptors.  This is from cancer research, so I don't know if it is applicable here.  But there is some suggestion that growth hormone and IGF-1 are associated with a greater sense of well-being. 

Has your muscle mass changed over time?  You mention being slightly pre-diabetic, so I wonder if there is something metabolic going on.

I am also low in DHEA, but anything over 5 mg starts to give me sleep issues.  So I plan to give topical DHEA a shot.  In addition to helping with mood, DHEA is also supposed to have metabolic benefits.  I am also getting cortisol checked out.

Yeah i had good muscle mass the first 2 years on the gels i probably added +20 pounds of muscle to my frame. Now I am back to my genetic set point and to me it seems my body is just like nope even if your T level is xyz we are only going to use yxz and it barely feels like im on anything.

I dont really care about the muscle mass part but the lack of energy and vitality and libido makes me scratch my head.

Also i ALWAYS used to feel HUNGRY almost RAVENOUS when i started TRT. And that feeling has gone away completely.

Its like my body isnt using the testosterone properly or something.

I post something about this every 6 months and no one has any real solutions and then i ignore it and just live my life.

But there has to be a reason this is happening. My endo said most guys can use the gels or injections longterm no problem.

I asked him about androgen resistance and he said its a possiblity but unlikely if it worked at the start to develop that later on.

I've already spent thousands of dollars flying out to see dr mariano and while he seemed like a nice guy and we tried some stuff, this still hasnt resolved.

So i really have no idea.

I guess I will try DHEA or PREG in ultra low doses and see if that has any benefits.

Oldbull

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2018, 08:00:41 am »
I found a progesterone creame online 10mg and this seems to be for men.

It seems like it goes pregelenone --> progesterone --> DHEA

So a low dose of progesterone may make sense since it would possibly produce some dhea downstream.


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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2018, 08:00:41 am »


Cataceous

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2018, 08:46:02 am »
...
Are you taking oral preg and dhea or topical?

Which supplement do you personally find gave you the most noticeable benefit? I will start with that one. Thanks!

I'm using the oral route for both pregnenolone and DHEA. In my case DHEA is more tried-and-true. I've only been on the pregnenolone for a couple weeks, so can't be sure the perceived benefits will last.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

PeakT

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2018, 11:33:12 am »
Let me relate my experience with pregnenolone: I tried supplementing with 15 mg in the evenings on two separate occasions. Each time I experienced uncomfortable anxiety. Recently I started taking 7.5 mg each morning, this time with good results. Nothing related to sexual function, but markedly better motivation.

Around when I started TRT I also began supplementing DHEA. If I've converted the units right, my DHEA-S had also been lowish, around where yours is now. I can't say for sure which improvements came from DHEA, but I do think it helped reduce anxiety and raise libido. As with pregnenolone, this was not with a large dose. Taking 6.25 mg twice a day boosts my levels to midrange.

The main takeaway here is that sometimes the standard doses of supplements are much higher than necessary, and can even cause problems rather than solve them.

Thanks. It's worth a shot.

Are you taking oral preg and dhea or topical?

Which supplement do you personally find gave you the most noticeable benefit? I will start with that one. Thanks!

Looks like you are low on DHEA . Most guys just take DHEA if that's the case and do well from what I can tell, although I know you didn't have good luck.  What dose did you take?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 11:38:43 am by PeakT »
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2018, 11:33:12 am »


Oldbull

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2018, 02:17:44 pm »
Looks like you are low on DHEA . Most guys just take DHEA if that's the case and do well from what I can tell, although I know you didn't have good luck.  What dose did you take?

Yeah.
I have tried supplementing with oral DHEA before but havent felt good on it. Maybe the dose was too high? Im not sure.
Would low DHEA cause all these issues though?

I ordered some progesterone for men. Which is what is made by pregelonenone.

Not sure which is better progesterone or preg.

PeakT

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2018, 02:52:11 pm »
Looks like you are low on DHEA . Most guys just take DHEA if that's the case and do well from what I can tell, although I know you didn't have good luck.  What dose did you take?

Yeah.
I have tried supplementing with oral DHEA before but havent felt good on it. Maybe the dose was too high? Im not sure.
Would low DHEA cause all these issues though?

I ordered some progesterone for men. Which is what is made by pregelonenone.

Not sure which is better progesterone or preg.

From what I have seen most guys are on 15 to 25 mg per day of DHEA.  The good docs pull DHEA-S before and after and monitor symptoms.

Pregnenolone is much more common on here for a few reasons.  I think the reason is that a progesterone cream can overshoot, giving pretty nasty symptoms.  Thats much harder to do with preg.

THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

vvs1

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2018, 04:27:18 pm »
Do you have any pre TRT labs? Maybe fine tune cortisol, thyroid, or e2 to those prior levels will give you the sensitivity.

Maybe you could push shbg up. All the TRT is doing is pushing that down further.

And I think Dr. Crisler is welcoming your case.

Forty2

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2018, 07:33:03 pm »
Do you have any pre TRT labs? Maybe fine tune cortisol, thyroid, or e2 to those prior levels will give you the sensitivity.

Maybe you could push shbg up. All the TRT is doing is pushing that down further.

And I think Dr. Crisler is welcoming your case.

Tyler already consulted with Dr Crisler years ago.

vvs1

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2018, 10:43:32 pm »
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=13521.0

Shbg is an androgen promoter in certain cells/body parts. If you had a mid-low shbg to begin with, the TRT would push it down further.

Maybe it's something else that TRT affects such as cholesterol.

Also, some claim that iodine makes them feel more androgenic. Have you supplemented?

Mindscape

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2018, 05:53:31 pm »
I had a girlfriend once who's thyroid hormone receptors weren't having any of it, no matter how good her thyroid hormones were. Similar to those whose T receptors are just become insensitive as they age.

Thyroid labs?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 06:02:25 pm by Mindscape »

Boxcar

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2018, 11:20:15 pm »
I tried topical DHT, to no effect.  Diet seems to have some impact, although it is inconsistent.  There is some research indicating that IGF-1 and insulin activate androgen receptors.  This is from cancer research, so I don't know if it is applicable here.  But there is some suggestion that growth hormone and IGF-1 are associated with a greater sense of well-being. 

Has your muscle mass changed over time?  You mention being slightly pre-diabetic, so I wonder if there is something metabolic going on.

I am also low in DHEA, but anything over 5 mg starts to give me sleep issues.  So I plan to give topical DHEA a shot.  In addition to helping with mood, DHEA is also supposed to have metabolic benefits.  I am also getting cortisol checked out.

Yeah i had good muscle mass the first 2 years on the gels i probably added +20 pounds of muscle to my frame. Now I am back to my genetic set point and to me it seems my body is just like nope even if your T level is xyz we are only going to use yxz and it barely feels like im on anything.

I dont really care about the muscle mass part but the lack of energy and vitality and libido makes me scratch my head.

Also i ALWAYS used to feel HUNGRY almost RAVENOUS when i started TRT. And that feeling has gone away completely.

Its like my body isnt using the testosterone properly or something.

I post something about this every 6 months and no one has any real solutions and then i ignore it and just live my life.

But there has to be a reason this is happening. My endo said most guys can use the gels or injections longterm no problem.

I asked him about androgen resistance and he said its a possiblity but unlikely if it worked at the start to develop that later on.

I've already spent thousands of dollars flying out to see dr mariano and while he seemed like a nice guy and we tried some stuff, this still hasnt resolved.

So i really have no idea.

I guess I will try DHEA or PREG in ultra low doses and see if that has any benefits.

20 lbs of muscle is a lot to lose.  If it is just from eating less, then that explains it.  But if it is from lower growth hormone/IGF-1 (declines with age) or insulin resistance, then those metabolic issues might be worth looking into.
Age: 36
178 lbs 5'8''

Current Treatment: 50 mg testosterone cypionate IM, twice a week
Low T Symptoms: Chronic pelvic pain, and other neuropathic pain.  Mild anxiety, low energy and low motivation
Meds: Amitriptyline (for pain, not depression), Clonidine (for sleep, not blood pressure)

Boxcar

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2018, 11:29:45 pm »
Looks like you are low on DHEA . Most guys just take DHEA if that's the case and do well from what I can tell, although I know you didn't have good luck.  What dose did you take?

Yeah.
I have tried supplementing with oral DHEA before but havent felt good on it. Maybe the dose was too high? Im not sure.
Would low DHEA cause all these issues though?

I ordered some progesterone for men. Which is what is made by pregelonenone.

Not sure which is better progesterone or preg.

From what I have seen most guys are on 15 to 25 mg per day of DHEA.  The good docs pull DHEA-S before and after and monitor symptoms.

Pregnenolone is much more common on here for a few reasons.  I think the reason is that a progesterone cream can overshoot, giving pretty nasty symptoms.  Thats much harder to do with preg.

Osprey and 53chevy jumped into this thread to share their experience with topical progesterone:  http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=12137.15

Through trial-and-error they both seemed to land on very similar doses.  Like Peak says, the general opinion seems to be that you want to try pregnenalone first.
Age: 36
178 lbs 5'8''

Current Treatment: 50 mg testosterone cypionate IM, twice a week
Low T Symptoms: Chronic pelvic pain, and other neuropathic pain.  Mild anxiety, low energy and low motivation
Meds: Amitriptyline (for pain, not depression), Clonidine (for sleep, not blood pressure)

Simeoni

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2018, 01:03:13 am »
In my opinion your estradiol is low enough to warrant many of your symptoms. 52 pmol/l translates to 14 pg/ml. Also since it was not the sensitive assay it could be even lower.

Have you used any form of AI?

Oldbull

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2018, 07:11:54 pm »
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=13521.0

Shbg is an androgen promoter in certain cells/body parts. If you had a mid-low shbg to begin with, the TRT would push it down further.

Maybe it's something else that TRT affects such as cholesterol.

Also, some claim that iodine makes them feel more androgenic. Have you supplemented?

Iodine? I have not. I wish it was as simple as supplementing with iodine lol

As for the SHBG issue; that might be the issue but i have no idea how to raise it. I tried berberine/cut out sugar/serms and it only budged a few points. And i didnt feel any different. So I think im stuck with my genetically set shbg.

Oldbull

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Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2018, 07:14:10 pm »
I had a girlfriend once who's thyroid hormone receptors weren't having any of it, no matter how good her thyroid hormones were. Similar to those whose T receptors are just become insensitive as they age.

Thyroid labs?

This is unfortunately what I feel might be happening. I hammered my androgen receptors with higher doses of T/DHT than theyve ever had in their life and now they are just becoming insensitive to testosterone and dht. I should at least have a raging libido right now on the gels but i dont.

My thyroid is perfect. Have checked it a dozen times.

I have tried supplementing with T3, armour, and natural thyroid JUST incase it is a thyroid problem but i have now ruled that out.

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: After 5+ years why doesnt TRT feel androgenic for me anymore????
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2018, 07:14:10 pm »