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Author Topic: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..  (Read 4102 times)

chrisL

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SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« on: June 06, 2018, 01:53:27 pm »
This post intended as informational only and hopefully will help someone..

I recently switched to Defy. I switched protocols a little bit and it presented an opportunity to measure my own level of Test Cyp absorption when injected SubQ.. It turned out that I respond very poorly to SubQ (vs. IM).

Here is my protocol:

Test Cyp: 150mg weekly
AI: 0.375mg weekly
HCG: 1000iu weekly.

Due to lowish SHBG I split everything into 3 doses. I did SubQ for 4 weeks and took the tests. Then I did IM for 4 weeks and took the tests. Same day. Same otherwise protocol. Here are the results for Total T (LabCorp range 264-916):

SubQ:    630 ng/Dl
IM:        1091 ng/Dl


Such a huge difference! It almost sounds unreal, however I believe the numbers. The total T number for IM injections is consistent with my prior protocol (for about 9-10 months I was doing IM). Low E2 for SubQ protocol consistent with low T. Symptoms agree with low T numbers as well.

Again, this is not to bash SubQ - if it works for you, that's great! I would rather do SubQ, but it seems it's not for me..

Few other observations I picked up along the way..

Switching to 3 time a week from 2 times a week dramatically lowered the need for AI. For 150mg of Test Cyp taken in 2 doses weekly I had to take at least 1mg of AI. Now it's .375mg!

Empower Test Cyp and HCG vial rubber caps are very tough and dull 30G and 31G needles so much it's painful to inject... I used to do 25G needle that I used with a large drawing needle and I feel it was less painful :( Not sure if I can do anything about that..

chrisL

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2018, 02:02:54 pm »
One more thing. My total T on 150mg of Test Cyp taken in three doses is higher than 200mg taken in 2 doses. Since I test at my lowest levels (right before next injection) it means the dips are not as low on more frequent injections and highs are not as high. Which explains lower demand for AI. I just did not expect the difference to be so pronounced..

My SHBG is 20-24 depending on the lab range..

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2018, 02:02:54 pm »


HRT Guru

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2018, 05:21:36 pm »
Id be really interested in seeing you repeat that and verify those results. Ive been on a steady protocol and religously follow the routine when I've gotten an inexplicably high TT so I'm interested in seeing if you can confirm your IM over SQ test results.

We know every one is different, cases such are you demonstrated are usually entirely anecdotal or subjective and just plain unique to the guy involved whereas people try to apply it as a rule in TRT.

I tend to believe more than anything else that IM and SQ have nothing more to do with anything than the gauge and length of the needle you choose to use. SQ just opened it up ti insulin size and that had more to do with it than anything else.

Flyingfool

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2018, 06:08:55 pm »
I wonder about absorption rates being different between subQ fat, versus intramuscular. Maybe there is no difference. But maybe there is?
54 year old, 5-7 and 174 lbs.
exercise: nine really. Cancer & surgery & covid restriction closed swimming
Pool :(

Blood tested 2/9/21

Total = 614  ng/dL (250-827) up from 520
Free T= 13.68 (5.6- 21.0) measured
Free T TruT calc 19.9

SHBG= 31.9 (11.2-78.1)

Bio-avail= 321 (110-575)

Estradiol = <10 (11-44) male range
Estrone not measured

DHES = not measured
DHEA = not measured

Currently on 50mcg Synthroid (T4)
TSH = 0.937
Free T4 = 1.03 (0.78 - 2.19)= 17.7% of range
Free T3 = 3.73(2.77-5.27) = 38.4%  of range

Current protocol: 100mg DIM once per day. 

NOT on TRT.

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2018, 06:08:55 pm »


chrisL

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2018, 06:11:42 pm »
HRT Guru,

I know how strange it seems to see such a big discrepancy in numbers.. And I'm not surprised by a high reading I got on IM - it's inline with what I had for last 10 months. It's the low one that surprised me.

I have an XLS file going back to the very first injection that I've done at night on July 24th of 2017 with total 111 records of injections, tests, dosages, comments, etc.. Here are few data points from it:

Code: [Select]
Date Inj Dose Frequency Total T
09/29/2017 IM 200mg 2x a week 1030
10/21/2017 IM 150mg 2x a week 922
11/28/2017 IM 120mg 2x a week 719
02/20/2018 IM 128mg 2x a week 912
04/27/2018 SubQ 150mg 3x a week 630
06/01/2018 IM 150mg 3x a week 1091

The IM dosage to total T correlation is pretty clear. The last one is outlier and I attribute the high Total T to higher low of a more frequent injection protocol since it's more smoothed out with higher lows and lower highs.

I only have 1 data point for SubQ, so technically it could be statistically irrelevant, but there are few other factors that support that the low total T number of 630 might be true. I'm very sensitive to E2 fluctuation and the reason I did the blood test on 4/27 was because I felt my E2 was creeping down too much. Thru my experience I learn that I could pretty accurately predict when it falls under 20. on 4/27 when my total T was 630, my E2 tested at 18.6. I was very skeptical since due to transitioning from twice a week to three times a week, I dropped AI from 1mg to 0.375mg per week while increasing my Test Cyp dosage from 128mg to 150mg. If anything I anticipated it would be high. I'm glad I listed to my body.

I felt changes starting SubQ within a week. My energy dipped down, I was more fatigued than usual. My skin cleared up almost overnight! So I think that my total T was pretty low while on SubQ.

Going back to IM, nocturnal erections came back strong, I got some mild acne on my chest and triceps. And my E2 on 6/01 registered at 29.2. So it all seems to align.

It would be nice to repeat the experiment, but I'd rather not waste 4 weeks on a protocol that didn't work well for me.

Again, this is not supposed to be bashing SubQ or anecdotal post. But maybe someone in puzzled in somewhat similar situation and this will make them pull a test and hopefully clarify something. As you mentioned I might be unique in the way my body breaks down test cyp when injected into fat and by no means I want people to follow my example.

My IM injections are side of the leg, 29-30G 1/2" (I'm very low BF), SubQ - abdominal, 31G 5/16".

chrisL

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2018, 06:21:38 pm »
I wonder about absorption rates being different between subQ fat, versus intramuscular. Maybe there is no difference. But maybe there is?

This is from Defy medical staff back when I brought my concerns to them after seeing low total T number:

Quote
As for absorption, it has been noted that some men absorb differently depending on IM/SC
injections and estrogen levels can sometimes vary as well depending on the injection type so it makes sense

gimmeabreak

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2018, 08:44:15 pm »
I wonder about absorption rates being different between subQ fat, versus intramuscular. Maybe there is no difference. But maybe there is?

This is from Defy medical staff back when I brought my concerns to them after seeing low total T number:

Quote
As for absorption, it has been noted that some men absorb differently depending on IM/SC
injections and estrogen levels can sometimes vary as well depending on the injection type so it makes sense

Hey Chris. Just wondering what your bodyfat % would be.  I'm just wondering if different body compositions make for different absorption. I myself am pretty lean coming in around 10 to 12% body fat. I had never measured my levels while doing subq but I know I just didn't feel as good as I did with Intramuscular injections. So I went back to IM.
39 years old/ 180lbs.


April 2016 - 50mg test cypionate 2x week
                - 250 iu HCG eod
                - 25 mg DHEA daily
               
Sleep apnea - CPAP

- Former natural physique competitor
- switched from weightlifting to gymnastics in January 2016
- diet: some what paleo based. Lots of veggies, no sugar, no grains, fish, chicken, beef. (I use wild, grass fed, free range and hormone free whenever possible)

Cataceous

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2018, 08:55:24 pm »
Some points to consider: at least one study has demonstrated that subQ testosterone ester injections have a considerably longer half life than IM injections; it takes four to five half lives to reach a steady state; testosterone cypionate probably has a half life over a week with IM injections; measurement errors may be nontrivial.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

chrisL

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2018, 12:37:40 am »
Hey Chris. Just wondering what your bodyfat % would be.  I'm just wondering if different body compositions make for different absorption. I myself am pretty lean coming in around 10 to 12% body fat. I had never measured my levels while doing subq but I know I just didn't feel as good as I did with Intramuscular injections. So I went back to IM.

I'm lean. In my less fit form I was measured at 15% bf and that was before the start of TRT. After TRT I gained more muscle and actually lost some fat - something unheard of for for bulking cycles. but T does wonders  ;D ;D ;D

So I'd say I'm somewhere in 12% bf right now and coming down since I'm cutting right now. Half an inch needle into a side of the quad is for sure into the muscle. And I joke that I'm running out of fat around my belly button to do HCG injections..

chrisL

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2018, 12:39:33 am »
Some points to consider: at least one study has demonstrated that subQ testosterone ester injections have a considerably longer half life than IM injections; it takes four to five half lives to reach a steady state; testosterone cypionate probably has a half life over a week with IM injections; measurement errors may be nontrivial.

I started SubQ on 3/24 and took the test on 4/27 - full 33 days. I think it should be enough to stabilize the levels. I felt on 3/27 loss of T kick according to my journal. I recovered a little bit afterwards. Switching back to IM (and skipping 1 pill of AI) quickly brought me back..

Cataceous

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2018, 01:50:33 am »
I started SubQ on 3/24 and took the test on 4/27 - full 33 days. I think it should be enough to stabilize the levels. ...

Only if your lowish SHBG makes your ester half lives a fair bit lower than what's found in various studies. Consider the Antares study. They measured a half life for subQ testosterone enanthate of ten days! Presumably testosterone cypionate would be even longer. So in theory that's at least 40 to 50 days to stabilize.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

chrisL

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2018, 01:16:31 pm »
I started SubQ on 3/24 and took the test on 4/27 - full 33 days. I think it should be enough to stabilize the levels. ...

Only if your lowish SHBG makes your ester half lives a fair bit lower than what's found in various studies. Consider the Antares study. They measured a half life for subQ testosterone enanthate of ten days! Presumably testosterone cypionate would be even longer. So in theory that's at least 40 to 50 days to stabilize.

Interesting.. But I was going from lower dosage (128mg per week split into 2 doses) to higher (150mg per week in 3 doses). Wouldn't it take longer to raise from the previous levels (which were 912) and not to drop? Unless slower absorption levels in SubQ protocol make a dramatic drop first..

Cataceous

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2018, 02:58:35 pm »
... But I was going from lower dosage (128mg per week split into 2 doses) to higher (150mg per week in 3 doses). Wouldn't it take longer to raise from the previous levels (which were 912) and not to drop? Unless slower absorption levels in SubQ protocol make a dramatic drop first..

If the only variable changed is the half life then switching to a longer half life is expected to cause a drop in serum levels followed by a gradual return to the original. If the dose is also increased then this may counteract the drop to some extent, and higher serum levels at steady state may be expected. But we are more complex than these simple models and our measurements are "noisy," so the expected behavior might not be obvious except when you look at averages over many trials or many individuals.

Case in point: My total serum testosterone had been around 800 ng/dL before I increased testosterone intake by adding 12.5 mg topically to an injection protocol. But after several weeks the serum level was measured as 730 ng/dL, going in the wrong direction from what was expected. Bottom line: we should be pretty cautious about making conclusions from small amounts of data.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

Tor

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2018, 09:23:25 pm »
4 weeks isn't very long. I wonder if you had started IM first then tested it after 4 weeks, then went to SubQ for 4 weeks, if the results would be the exact opposite...

chrisL

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2018, 07:38:39 pm »
4 weeks isn't very long. I wonder if you had started IM first then tested it after 4 weeks, then went to SubQ for 4 weeks, if the results would be the exact opposite...

Tor,

I was on IM for 8 months before this experiment. All my IM blood results were very consistent with the dose changes on IM. I had retests done in less than 4 weeks after changing the dose and the results also reflected that pretty close.

As others mentioned 4 weeks for SubQ might've been not enough though..

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Re: SubQ Test Cyp injections - buyer beware..
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2018, 07:38:39 pm »