Ageless Male: My Horror Story

[BlueMetroid]

Hi there....I wanted to share my story with the forum, in hopes of finding others who have gone through a similar situation with this drug, and to hopefully get some advice on how to get my out of the worst medical crisis I've ever gone through.

Back in the Fall of last year (September), I was experiencing all the symptoms of low Testosterone. And when I come to think of it, I had for a long time and just attributed it to getting older (I kept telling myself I'm in my late 20's now, not 18 anymore). I was irritable, experiencing E.D., no muscle growth (after two years in the gym), almost no body hair, fatigue, etc. So I went into my Primary Care Dr. and insisted on getting my levels checked. He dismissed it and said that he felt my levels probably were low, but didn't think I should get them checked. I urged him to however, and in the end he did.

On September 26th 2011, at 4:55 pm, my T levels came back as...

Free Testosterone: 44.8    Range: 35.00-155.00
Total Testosterone: 283     Range: 250-1100

Having checked the ranges for my age and found my levels to be very low, I naturally was disturbed. Yet my Dr. assured me nothing needed to be done, as they were "normal" results. He finally (and reluctantly) prescribed me Androgel. I tried filling the prescription only to be told of it's high cost and non-coverage by my insurance.

I decided to take matters into my own hands and find a more cost effective solution to raising my Testosterone. I used ZMA for one month, and for the next month, I used a product I'd seen on TV called "Ageless Male". By the commercial, it was marketed toward the older crowd, but nowhere did it specify that it was specifically for that age group. I called in to order, and found that I couldn't afford it's $50 price tag. Just as I was about to hang up the man on the phone offered me a one month trial for an incredibly low $15. I was ecstatic and accepted the offer. Looking back, it was one of the worst decisions I ever made.

For the month I was on Ageless Male I felt like a bull. Great sex drive, lots of energy, frequent erections, positive outlook, and just that general "manly" feeling. I had a couple ED problems, but I dismissed it. Life was looking up! When the month was nearing it's end, I called back to try and get another months supply for a similar price, with no luck. My fiancee and I decided that I should try other more cost effective means of raising my T, rather than start paying $50 per month. On the last day I took Ageless Male I had my T levels checked again, and the following results came back...

December 14th, 2011  7:03 AM

Free Testosterone: 58.4    Range: 35.0-155.0
Total Testosterone: 334     Range: 250-1100

Needless to say, I was pretty crushed. I'd worked two months to raise my T, and felt that I was making genuine progress, only to find a marginal increase. I brushed it off as best I could, but little did I know terrible times were ahead.

The first thing I noticed was depression...it was almost instant...within a couple days of stopping Ageless Male. I couldn't figure out why, either. My friends were over for the weekend, and we had a "guys weekend" planned. I had every reason to be happy, but all the sudden I had this sinking depression for no reason. My fiancee instantly noticed it also. Then the next thing I noticed was ED. I was having some "special time" with my lady, and I lost my erection. It was really crushing, but still I tried to forget it. A day or two later I attempted to masturbate, and couldn't seem to get it up.

My symptoms got worse by the day. In addition to depression that only got worse (and I mean BAD depression....the worst of my life...and I had no reason to be depressed at all. I had just proposed to my fiancee, with a bright future ahead) my appetite left. My whole body temperature dropped, and I was freezing (I used to be "hot" all the time...a veritable human heater), I developed extreme muscle twitches all over my body (mostly my legs and arms, though), no appetite (I love food...I used to be a big eater, I now eat about 1/2 the food I ate pre-Ageless Male), constant tiredness and fatigue (all I wanted to do was sleep), but the most disturbing symptom was the 100% inability to get an erection. My fiancee and I tried EVERYTHING, even Viagra. It was as if I had dead meat hanging between my legs. My penis was very cold and lifeless.

This went on for days until I had a complete crash and had to go to the Emergency Room. They gave me no answers, and after hours I was sent home more frustrated than ever. I couldn't get an erection for 10 or 12 straight days, and instantly one night, as if a light had been turned on, I got an erection and was able to have some "special time" with my fiancee. My appetite, energy, and mood all arrived at the same time. Within minutes. It was one of the oddest things I've ever experienced. It happened at night, and to this day, months later, nighttime seems to be when I feel the best. I've no idea why.

January was, largely, a recovery month for me. I started taking ZMA again, and bought 7 different T boosting herbs and began taking one per day. It was a cycling system, and I got the idea from a website. Tribulus, Maca, Tongkat Ali, Catuaba, Passion RX, Rhodiola Rosea, and Horny Goat Weed. The system seemed to work, and since I was still inside a month my hopes were high. I was able to occasionally have sex, but my appetite came and went, and I was FREEZING all the time. My muscle twitches began to slow down, and I thought I was truly beating this thing.

I saw my Dr. again, and he dismissed all my symptoms, gave me some free Viagra samples, and sent me on my way. He said it was "all in my head" and related to the stress of planning a wedding (there is no stress....the wedding is still pretty far out) and told me to start taking the Ageless Male again "if it makes you feel better". He refused to give me a referral to the endocrinologist, stating that it would be a "waste of money". I walked out of the appointment furious, and determined to never see him again.

In February I found a new Dr. very close to where I live. He was very understanding and did lots of labwork. He was everything my last Dr. wasn't. I decided to quit my herbs and ZMA so the Dr. could get some baseline readings. This induced the worst crash since my initial stopping of Ageless Male. All my symptoms returned with full force. This time with several disturbing mental symptoms. I began experiencing "brain fog" and terrible short term memory loss in addition to everything else. My E.D. was still around, also. Sometimes I wouldn't be able to get it up period. Other times only a partial erection.

My self imposed crash yielded some very interesting Post Ageless Male Testosterone readings...

February 6th, 2012   7:59 AM

Free Testosterone: 4.6 pg/mL    Reference: 5.0-40.0 pg/mL
Total Testosterone: 210 ng/dL    Reference: 332-896 ng/dL

I was shocked at readings even lower than the ones taken in the fall, but it verified how bad I was feeling. It was something I could show my family, friends, and fiancee...proof of why I hadn't been myself lately. Dr. [edited by moderator] wanted to see me back right away, and this time he checked other stuff...LH, FSH, Cortisol, and Estradiol. Also, T again. They came back as follows...

February 10th, 2012   2:20 PM

Free Testosterone: 3.5 pg/mL    Reference: 5.0-40.0 pg/mL
Total Testosterone: 139 ng/dL   Reference: 332-896 ng/dL
FSH: 1.7 mIU                              Reference: 1.3-18.2 mIU/ml
LH:   1.2 mIU/ml                         Reference: 1.4-9.4 mIU/ml
Cortisol: 20.3 ug/dL                   Reference: 4.3-22.4 ug/dL
Estradiol: 33 pg/mL                    Reference: 0-56 pg/mL

My doctor was again shocked at my incredibly low T, as was I. He fully recommended I start T injections, but first he asked that I get an MRI to rule out a pituitary tumor. I had one done, and it came back negative. I insisted on talking with some specialist before starting the possible lifelong commitment of TRT, and he said that was fine. He referred me to both an Endo and a Uro. I'm still waiting on the Endo referral to come through, and the Uro app isn't until April 4th.

I started my herbs back, and I noticed a difference right away. I felt like I returned to my January recovery period. But I wanted more, so in addition to the 7 herbs I threw in more Tribulus. As soon as I started that, I felt like my old self for 2-3 days. My libido was GREAT, lots of erections, and a great mental state. I was so encouraged. But as the days went on I could feel the Trib's effect began to wane, and eventually I believe I developed a tolerance for it. Today in fact is my first day without the extra dose, and with just the herbs. I've also discontinued my ZMA, for reasons which I'll detail.

So here I am....tomorrow will mark 2 months and 3 weeks since stopping Ageless Male. Here are the side effects I'm still experiencing...

Loss of morning erections
Hard to break a sweat
No appetite
No libido
More emotional (crying for almost no reason)
Mood swings
TERRIBLE brain fog
Extreme Memory Loss
Fatigue and tiredness
Daily Headaches
Clicky/Poppy Joints
Facial and Head Hair Growing Slower than usual
Easy bruising
Cuts/Scrapes healing much slower
Irritability
Penis curving slightly to the left
Thinner/Longer Flaccid Penis
Chills

Over the course of this I began to research just what was in this poison (Ageless Male) that I took. It contains an 800 mg proprietary blend of the following ingredients:

Saw Palmetto Berry Extract
Astaxanthin

Through my continued research, I found that roughly 600 or 700 of those mg were Saw Palmetto. Apparently Saw Palmetto, especially in it's potent extract form, is a natural 5-AR inhibitor, similar to Propecia. This led me to a site called Propecia Help (www.propeciahelp.com). It's a support site for people who are suffering long term or permanent side effects of 5-AR inhibitors like Propecia and Saw Palmetto. I read through the forums and was pretty terrified....I saw people who were suffering the same symptoms as I am, many for years. One night I worked up the courage to post my story, only to have the moderator never even put it up.

Until I can get in with a specialist, I continue to try different home remedies such as the "Ball Zinger", Royal Jelly, eating lots of Broccoli (a natural anti-estrogen), having sex when I can, getting lots of sun, vitamin D, working out, protein shakes, and just about everything else I can think of. I've discontinued ZMA, as Zing is a natural AR inhibitor. My latest hope is a medicine called "Clomid" I read about. Apparently it has an off-label use for hypo-gonadal men in low doses. I mentioned it to my new primary care Dr., and he said he would rather me talk to one of the specialists about it. Many endos and uros dismiss the medicine and would rather proceed with T injections, and for that reason (along with the long wait time to get in with each), I ordered some online from out of the country. I plan to replicate this medical study:

http://www.drdekel.com/content/clomiphene-citrate-effects-testosteroneestrogen-ratio-male-hypogonadism

I fully realize that taking pills got me into this whole situation to begin with, but I am unwilling to sit around and wait for something that may not even happen.

I'm marrying my beautiful fiancee on July 21st, and I want to feel like a man. I want her to have a groom, and to feel the best I can on the best day of my life. I feel like time is running out, and it's a scary thought to think this all could be permanent.

So I humbly present my situation to the experts here...I realize that people can be reluctant to give actual medical advice, but I plead with anyone who may have an answer to drop me a line. Here are some questions that I have regarding my situation...

Should I give the fight up and get T injections at 26 years old?

What are the chances (percentage wise) of testicular shrinkage, gynecomastia, and sterility happening because of injections?

Can I do anything to prevent these side effects while taking T injections?

Can the drop in my readings from Feb 6th to 10th (210 total T, to 139 total T) be attributed to a morning reading on the 6th, and an afternoon reading on the 10th? Or did my overall levels just drop that much in those few days?

If TRT isn't the way to go right now, how long should I wait before giving up and starting them?

In your opinion, did I cause myself permanent damage by using just 30 days of Ageless Male?


I realize my post was very long, and to anyone who actually finishes it, I thank you.

Any help is appreciated....I'm pretty terrified...



                                           

[PeakT]

Thanks for posting but sorry to hear about all the struggles of course.  And congrats on the upcoming marriage.  Sounds like you've got a good woman, eh?

I've got a number of comments and so, in no particular order:

1.  Clomid use is not as uncommon as you might think.  Fertility docs use it quite often, for example, with men.  And since you are young, this is a natural concern. 

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Clomid_testosterone.aspx

As far as long term safety, you'll have to ask your doc - that's in the "medical advice" arena as you mentioned, but I do have some commentary here:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Clomid_Risk.aspx

2.  It is good for you to see an endo just to make sure that there is nothing else going on.  Endos are good at finding major medical disorders.  However, you still get many of them who will say, "Your testosterone of 300 is just fine."  What they mean by that is that is that you don't have a tumor or major medical disorder.  That's really what they have been trained to do is find if you have some very major issue and they don't know what to do with a guy like you that has T in the "low normal" range.  (I don't think the low 300's is "low normal" - see my book - but that is how they look at it.)  Nevertheless, it is important for you to get checked thoroughly for prolactinomas, etc.

3.  Your urolgist can check you out for varicoceles and other things on his side.  You may have some venous leakage by now, but when you get your T back up, you should good improvement on that.

4.  You may want to file an FDA complaint about the product?  The reason I say that is that it seemed to give you no increase in testosterone based on that second read, right?  And yet it seemed to make a dramatic difference.  I really doubt that either of the active ingredients were dong that.  It makes me wonder if there are some other non-listed ingredients.  This has definitely happened with other supplement manufacturers and should probably be checked out.  Just a thought:

http://www.fda.gov/safety/reportaproblem/consumercomplaintcoordinators/default.htm

I don't like the FDA intruding too much into the supplement world, but sometimes it is justified.

5.  Hang in there.  Almost for sure some good docs can you get you back on track.  I don't know whether you are still on the Androgel, but a) it is often poorly absorbed and b) will likely cause you fertility issues.

[feelgood]

sorry to hear about your story...i would definitely find a progressive, more forward-thinking doc....trying to look back to see if you're still on Androgel, but not sure. I think your fertility question should revolve around when you plan to have kids. You're pretty young. In the limited research i have checked out, the fertility issues/sperm count stuff can be reversed with the right doc.

i think you need docs like this (below) - ones that are clearly certified and legit, and focused purely on men's issues like testosterone and male infertility.

http://www.menshealthboston.com/whatweoffer

check out what they offer and their team. Good thing for me (if i end up going), is that they are around the corner from me. But obviously there must be places like this at least somewhat near you if you're not in the Northeast of the US.

My endo, who is definitely pretty good and not "dismissive" of my 280 nl reading, might be sending me to them or someone like them. Just the other day he thought that Clomid would be a good try for my low testosterone, since me and my wife are essentially trying to concieve...And now, i have another good reason to try the Clomid - after doing a home test, it appears my sperm count is low, which Clomid i believe *could* help. I need to now talk to someone about THAT. UGH.

It's interesting to think about how low testosterone is likely causing my low sperm count, but if you supplement with testosterone, it causes low sperm count. harshly ironic.

Anyway, good luck...i just think you need to talk to the right people. You're young - i'm sure nothing you've done will be "non-reversable."

[PeakT]

Starry:  You are lucky.  Dr. Morgentaler has a book out on testosterone as well:

http://www.amazon.com/Testosterone-Life-Recharge-Vitality-Overall/dp/0071494804/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331229552&sr=8-1

Maybe it was you that mentioned the book in another post - I don't know.

[BlueMetroid]

First off...thanks for the replies and insight guys...and for making it through my huge post! I know it was long, but I didn't want to leave any detail out of this terrible experience.

I'm actually not on the Androgel...I wasn't able to start it because of the price. Rite Aid wanted $300-$400 per month for it, and my insurance wouldn't cover it at all. My original Dr (who I refuse to ever see again) only RELUCTANTLY prescribed it for me after seeing my 283 Total T reading.

My fiancee and I do very much want children...our timeline is somewhere down the line...in 2-4 years (but more on the end of that...3-4'ish). I've read that it can take weeks or months for the body to start producing it's own T again after stopping injections, if at all. Since my T was so low to begin with (283), would my body even start to produce it again when I want kids?

Also...I do know that T injections can cause Gynecomastia...if an anti estrogen pill was used while on the injections, would this counteract that? I lost 100 lbs a couple years ago, and unfortunately have a case of Gyno already. I read on a site that guys with pre-existing Gyno should stay away from injections for this reason...anyone ever hear about this?

I also thought of one other strange symptom that I've been experiencing...I forgot to put it on the list...in late January my nipples started staying erect all the time, not just when I'm cold. Initially I thought it could be Gyno starting because of my altered hormone levels, but my fiancee and I haven't noticed any chest growth. Here it is, early March, and they've started staying "down"some of the time, but are still erect for much of the day. Is this a low T symptom? Or some weird Saw Palmetto effect?

The venous leakage worries me...is that a direct symptom of Low T? Are there any treatments for it if it doesn't get better? There have definitely been times when I lose my erection during sex, or just can't get hard enough for sex to start with.

I'm glad the consensus is that I haven't done any permanent damage. Finally getting appointments made with two specialists is encouraging, but the appointments being so far out isn't (which is why I'm consulting the T gurus here....I'll go mad waiting a month to get in with them!). Especially when I've got a wedding in a little over 4 months (July 21st). My fiancee and I had a long talk last night about possibly having to postpone it if my health doesn't clear up by then (I want to be 100% on the best day of my life, right?). Closing in on 3 months of this hell, it's definitely something we had to realistically look at.

We made the decision to keep the date (having paid our venue off already played a big part in our decision, lol), and gamble that my health will be ok by then. I've always worked better under pressure, and I vowed to be a man again by July 21st. I do have a great lady by my side....she's been my support through this whole thing, and seen me at my worst.

Has P.E. played a factor for any other guys on this Low T journey? I notice that ever since this whole business has started, I simply can't last like I used to. Is P.E. really a big part of having Low T? Or is it something unique to me?

Also, I really don't think it's my imagination on this...but my facial and head hair grows about half as fast as it used it...is this a Low T symptom, or a sign of something else entirely?

Thank you so much for listening guys...you have no idea...it helps so much....I'm determined to feel better when I walk down the aisle!

[LowerT51]

Make sure you hook yourself up with a reputable urologist who understands how to administer T while knowing that the guy wants to have kids down the road.  Testim never worked for me but there are several other alternates out there.  Compounded T can be an option in a gel or a cream and formulated at a higher dose than what's in Androgel or Testim.  Pellets are a viable option and are covered by most insurance carriers in the US.  Keep focused and be proactive when you need to be - while being patient!!  Knowing is half the battle and you sound like you want to help yourself.  You will get there!!   

[spiderman]

Hi there...just to let you know most of the guys on here been way down and have had the same treatment from doc's including myself..check the posts...
Noticed you have been down the herb route but have a look at what is working for people on here and you will find amino acids like L-Arginne and L citrulinne are being very beneficial to a lot of us along with putting better diets etc in place..The cold feeling you have will certainly be helped by the L arginne...difficult to be patient I know but you can only get better judging by where you are at the moment..was there to!..best of luck in getting back up where you belong..

[MrChickenkiev]

You mentioned memory loss, which might reflect some neurotransmitter damage too. I'm going to do a post on an article which describes my symptoms almost perfectly- which might be useful for others too. It's not all about Testosterone, though that's a good place to start no doubt.

[PeakT]

BlueM -  One thing I forgot to mention:  you should be able to get your erectile function back and rather quickly if you can get your T up.  I can't, of course, advise you whether or not to do that - that's a medical decision - but the studies clearly show that venous leakage usually responds powerfully to increased T.  Androgel, by the way, may not have raised your T much, so imagine if you get your T into the 500-800 range what it will do.  The internals of your penis will literally be rebuilt.  Do a search at the top of my site on venous leakage and I have some more info.

Again, no one can promise you anything, of course, but in general raising T therapy has excellent results.  The key is to find a doc that can raise testosterone through alternative means and keep your fertility going.

How long will it take to get that function back?  Well, it will probably take a few weeks to feel a difference, because (assuming the issue is venous leakage) the connective tissue must be rebuilt within the penis.  My guess is that you would be doing much, much better after 3 months.

For example, in this study - and they did the T therapy kind of spotty - there was improvement after 3 months:

"Testosterone Undecanoate Restores Erectile Function in a Subset of Patients with Venous Leakage: A Series of Case Reports" http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2006.00267.x/abstract;jsessionid=022A2290BE7C529CDB58210ACEDA8DD1.d03t03?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

This study writes "After twelve and 30 weeks of testosterone treatment, 20 out of the 29 patients demonstrated marked improvement in erectile function domain":

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/jandrol.108.005264v1 "Testosterone Improves Erectile Function in Hypogonadal Patients with Venous Leakage"

You will also find libido and nitric oxide levels increasing and your cardiovascular health improving as well - all very good for the ol' sex life.

So I think you can be ready in 3 months myself, but talk to a doc and get his/her expertise.  They work with patients quite often and have that practical experience.

Now, as far as permanent damage, I really doubt it.  You are young and so any venous leakage should be easily correctable.  Furthermore, even if the Saw Palmetto caused some kind of severe reaction, a good doc may be able to jumpstart you.  Steroid users, for example, sometimes shut off their natural production.  Of course, Saw Palmetto is a different animal, but it may be worth a try.

Also, in my case, I was low T for years and that is very hard on the arteries.  (It raises insulin and inflammation, etc.)  But you're young and have nice clean arteries for the most part, so now do your best to keep them that way and enjoy life and the obviously great woman that you have found...

[BlueMetroid]

Thanks again for the replies! I'm starting to feel very positive that I can beat this! I wish I could get into the Urologist before April 4th, but I suppose I should be grateful I got a specialist app even that soon. Hopefully my endocrinologist referral will be in the mail today.

Mrchickenkiev: I was under the impression that memory loss was a symptom of Low T? Are neuro transmitters damaged when a man has Low T for a while, thus causing the memory loss?

PeakT, thank you so much for the links...the studies are very reassuring. It's encouraging to know that even though you spent years in a Low T bodily environment you were able to recover.

spiderman, starry, lowert51, thank you very much for the tips and encouragement! I'm going to look into L-Arg.

I've heard that T Injections sometimes "wear off" in the days preceding the next injection...has anyone experienced this? I asked my doctor about cost also, and he said he didn't know...I've heard about roughly $50 per injection.

I tracked my Clomid order today...it's at least in the country now...I don't think I've ever wanted a package to get here so badly in my life! Hopefully I can get in with the endo before it does, though. As bad as I want to start the Clomid and (hopefully) feel better, I still am reluctant to play my own doctor.

[PeakT]

Your doctor didn't know about the cost of an injection??  That's not good. 

Injections are very cheap - I think in the $5-$10 range for the std stuff - and that's one of the reasons they're still around.  They're a good low cost alternative for guys that don't have insurance.  Other reason for injections are no risk of transferrence and the fact that the T goes right into the ol' plasma, so you'll definitely get a boost.

The classic injection pattern is to get an injection every two weeks.  (Some doctors try to go every three.)  You start out high, say, in the 1000+ range for a few days and by the end of the two weeks, you're usually back near the basement.  The best time to get a test is probably in the middle of the cycle, because the beginning and end of the cycle really don't tell you much if you think about it.  Does that answer your q?

NOTE:  Be careful with L-Arginine in my opinion.  Just a few grams per day at most.  See my link below.  Many guys are going to L-Citrulline, which is a precursor.  See the forum thread on the subject.

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Arginine.aspx

[BlueMetroid]

Nope, he didn't. He referred me to the Urologist and Endocrinologist with nearly every T Injection question I had.

$5 to $10?! That's MUCH cheaper than I thought....I'd heard somewhere in the $50 range. I may be losing my medical insurance this fall, so if I do have to start injections cost is definitely something think about in the long term.

That does answer my question, thanks! I wish I could avoid those couple "low level days" before my next injection.

[PeakT]

Some of the anti-aging docs and more forward-thinking urologists are allowing patients to self-inject much more often in order to smooth out that roller coaster ride effect.  For example, see question #2 on this page:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Physician_Network_CA_Smith.aspx 

Another pretty cheap alternative is compounding.  Testosterone is not that expensive of a molecule actually and how Testim and Androgel can justify those exhorbitant prices, I don't know.  Yes, they had to have clinical trials, but I find it hard to believe it was that expensive!

Anyway, here is an article about compounding:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Compounding_Testosterone.aspx

[BlueMetroid]

Thanks for the info Peak! If I must resort to injections, being able to administer them at home would be a huge help.

I just wanted to give you guys an update. My uro app is still about a month out, but my endo app (miraculously) is scheduled for day after tomorrow, the 9th!

This means I don't have to "play Doctor" and take the Clomid on my own, and I can save an entire (precious) month before the wedding. I'm very encouraged, and will take the insight and tips I've gained here to the appointment!

I'll keep ya'll posted...thanks again!

[PeakT]

You don't want to self-boost T for a variety of reasons that require monitoring.  You want to watch red blood cell counts, liver function, PSA, etc.  So stick with the docs is my advice.

Also, one potential issue with compounding is transferrence:  you must be careful around any women and children to keep it covered with clothing and/or wash it off after several hours.