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Author Topic: Starting too high?  (Read 632 times)

oldolylifter

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Starting too high?
« on: August 04, 2018, 02:18:53 pm »
I have read quite a bit from guys starting their TRT with too high of a dose.  I understand how everyone reacts differently and the need for managing E2, Hct, etc. over the long term. 

Back in the day, when pretty much all competitive weightlifters used anabolic steroids, we would start testosterone at 200mg.  No sense putting a needle in your ass (they were 20g, 1.5in needles) for anything less than a full cc.  Usually, we'd start test about a third of the way in to the cycle when natural test would be dropping.  From there, we'd ramp up to 400-800mg per week for most of the guys I knew.  I knew of a few who used more. 

No one, ever, complained of symptoms related to the high dose of test, quite the opposite, actually.  Granted, towards the end of the cycle, when estrogen was elevating, the grind of heavy training was taking a toll, etc., we'd start to not feel well.  But, that was after being on for 8-12 weeks, certainly not towards the beginning and we were stacking multiple substances. 

So what gives with some of the relatively minor adjustments to lower doses changing outcomes so much?  Are some just that sensitive?  I'm not doubting what I have read, just never saw this back then, and many took a once a week injection.  If we went to multiple weekly dosing, it was because we were using too many cc to put in one dose.  No one ever felt anything but great with this method. 

Any explanation for this?

cristian

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Re: Starting too high?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2018, 04:03:58 pm »
I wonder if its possible that problems arise with age, or when one's baseline T level is so low to start with. 20 years ago, a buddy and I loaded up on androstinedione stuff before it was banned. I put on like 25 pounds of muscle in a few months and I'm pretty sure my T was higher than it should've been. And th I never felt anything but great. But I can attest to the fact that a 58 year old guy with baseline T of 239 might not feel so chipper starting out on 160mg a week. Ouch!

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Re: Starting too high?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2018, 04:03:58 pm »


ghce

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Re: Starting too high?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2018, 05:24:32 pm »
I have read quite a bit from guys starting their TRT with too high of a dose.  I understand how everyone reacts differently and the need for managing E2, Hct, etc. over the long term. 

Back in the day, when pretty much all competitive weightlifters used anabolic steroids, we would start testosterone at 200mg.  No sense putting a needle in your ass (they were 20g, 1.5in needles) for anything less than a full cc.  Usually, we'd start test about a third of the way in to the cycle when natural test would be dropping.  From there, we'd ramp up to 400-800mg per week for most of the guys I knew.  I knew of a few who used more. 

No one, ever, complained of symptoms related to the high dose of test, quite the opposite, actually.  Granted, towards the end of the cycle, when estrogen was elevating, the grind of heavy training was taking a toll, etc., we'd start to not feel well.  But, that was after being on for 8-12 weeks, certainly not towards the beginning and we were stacking multiple substances. 

So what gives with some of the relatively minor adjustments to lower doses changing outcomes so much?  Are some just that sensitive?  I'm not doubting what I have read, just never saw this back then, and many took a once a week injection.  If we went to multiple weekly dosing, it was because we were using too many cc to put in one dose.  No one ever felt anything but great with this method. 

Any explanation for this?

When I was mid range at 800 with TRT it did not a lot for me at all, it wasn't until I went Supra-Physiological with my current protocol that I felt fantastic and all low T symptoms evaporated but of course everyone is different. Age 57!
Age:57, Height 6' 3" weight 92.5KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Andriol 160mg
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 

Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

Joe Sixpack

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Re: Starting too high?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2018, 06:50:56 pm »
Interesting post oldolylifter.  It must be age having something to do with it.  At age 55 I was absolutley miserable at 180mg/week.  Even if I broke this 180mg into daily doses, I still felt wired, anxious, unable to sleep and just unwell.  And for me it was not a high E2 problem either.  I do not aromatize very much at all.  The reason I tried going up to 180mg was because I needed the extra estrogen. 

I am finding that age is giving me a similar reaction to alcohol.  I used to love to drink.  I could drink a lot and I would feel great doing it.  I noticed that around age 53-54 I started enjoying it a lot less.  Now at 55+ I don't like drinking at all.  Not because I'm trying to be healthy or anything.  It's just that the buzz isn't what it used to be.  And the recovery takes a lot longer.
Age: 55, Ht: 5'08", Wt: 155 lbs
Protocol: 25 mg T Cyp + 25 IU HCG M,W,F + 2 clicks T Cream + 15mg DHEA + 15mg Pregnenalone daily.
12/2018 test results: TT: 1054 ng/dL (264-916), FT: 17.2 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 21.6 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0)

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Re: Starting too high?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2018, 06:50:56 pm »


Kirk001

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Re: Starting too high?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2018, 07:31:05 pm »
Maybe there is a bit of "neither fish nor fowl" thing going on whereby you need to either be at a good physiologic level of T to feel good or you need to be signficantly into supraphysiological territory. And there is a range in between, a kind of no-man's-land, where you don't feel good...

The numbers will be different for different people. But say a guy feels good at 900. Maybe as you go up, he feels worse at 1,000, at 1,100, at 1,200... but if you continued to take him up to like 2,000 or whatever he would start to feel good again.

Because clearly we have many reports of guys feeling better at 900 than at 1,100 (or whatever the numbers are in their particular case). And yet as you say I have never heard of a guy pushing himself up into high supraphysiologic levels who did not feel good or great on it.

Joe Sixpack

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Re: Starting too high?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2018, 08:52:04 pm »
Maybe there is a bit of "neither fish nor fowl" thing going on whereby you need to either be at a good physiologic level of T to feel good or you need to be signficantly into supraphysiological territory. And there is a range in between, a kind of no-man's-land, where you don't feel good...

The numbers will be different for different people. But say a guy feels good at 900. Maybe as you go up, he feels worse at 1,000, at 1,100, at 1,200... but if you continued to take him up to like 2,000 or whatever he would start to feel good again.

Because clearly we have many reports of guys feeling better at 900 than at 1,100 (or whatever the numbers are in their particular case). And yet as you say I have never heard of a guy pushing himself up into high supraphysiologic levels who did not feel good or great on it.
Were the guys you know who were supraphysio as old as 50 or were these mainly youngsters?  I am betting that tolerance to high levels is age limited. 

The highest I have ever been was 1500+.  1500+ is what the lab readout said.  I don't know what my real level was.  Apparently Labcorp cuts the measurement off at 1500.  I could have been at 1501 or 2000.  But I was definitely at least at 1500.  i did not feel at well at all at those levels.  I'd be afraid to go any higher lest I feel even worse.   It would be nice to feel great like those you know, but I don't think I want to risk it. 
Age: 55, Ht: 5'08", Wt: 155 lbs
Protocol: 25 mg T Cyp + 25 IU HCG M,W,F + 2 clicks T Cream + 15mg DHEA + 15mg Pregnenalone daily.
12/2018 test results: TT: 1054 ng/dL (264-916), FT: 17.2 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 21.6 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0)

inthepocket

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Re: Starting too high?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2018, 01:27:43 pm »
The age factor mentioned above does sound plausible. The tolerance thing could very well be at play.

One thing that might also be at play nowadays is the steady drip of running labs every few weeks (for some), and keeping a close, critical eye on every last detail. Sometimes this can mess w ur mind and maybe even create 'symptoms.'

Or, maybe you just ran w a bad-ass crew that wasn't affected by the high dosages.  ;D
49 yr
6'0"
165lb

Labs - 2/9/18:
TT   482, FT 5.33, FT % 1.1, E2 12, SHBG 79, PSA .86,

Previous protocols:
2 clicks 2 x day topical (3/18 - 5/18)
200mg x 8 pellets (5/18) - rejected
.25 TCyp 2x wk (7/18)

Current Protocol (8/2/18):
T Cyp IM .80ml 1 x wk, Anastrozole .25mg 2 x wk, MIC Plus .75ml 1 x wk, HCG .4ml 2 x wk

HRT Guru

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Re: Starting too high?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2018, 02:01:29 pm »
I have read quite a bit from guys starting their TRT with too high of a dose.  I understand how everyone reacts differently and the need for managing E2, Hct, etc. over the long term. 

Back in the day, when pretty much all competitive weightlifters used anabolic steroids, we would start testosterone at 200mg.  No sense putting a needle in your ass (they were 20g, 1.5in needles) for anything less than a full cc.  Usually, we'd start test about a third of the way in to the cycle when natural test would be dropping.  From there, we'd ramp up to 400-800mg per week for most of the guys I knew.  I knew of a few who used more. 

No one, ever, complained of symptoms related to the high dose of test, quite the opposite, actually.  Granted, towards the end of the cycle, when estrogen was elevating, the grind of heavy training was taking a toll, etc., we'd start to not feel well.  But, that was after being on for 8-12 weeks, certainly not towards the beginning and we were stacking multiple substances. 

So what gives with some of the relatively minor adjustments to lower doses changing outcomes so much?  Are some just that sensitive?  I'm not doubting what I have read, just never saw this back then, and many took a once a week injection.  If we went to multiple weekly dosing, it was because we were using too many cc to put in one dose.  No one ever felt anything but great with this method. 

Any explanation for this?

With due respect to those that do it you're seeing a probably <1% of guys that show up on this forum in particular and complain about all manner of things that make it look like TRT is problematic where MOST suffer some level of anxiety and TRT just becomes the new thing that they fixate on so it's not TRT in that regard its that you're looking at an extremely small and isolated population that MAKES things harder and appear harder than they need to be.

oldolylifter

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Re: Starting too high?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2018, 06:03:48 pm »
Thanks for the interesting replies everyone.  I think you all have some reasonable explanations.  I also wonder if some overthink this a bit, talking about going from 18mg to 20mg 3x per week dosing, once vs twice or more weekly injections, E2 numbers producing symptoms at 30 but not at 24, etc.  I don't see it myself, but if someone feels like they are crashing after day five, who am I to question it and if they feel better at every 4th day dosing, so be it.

I suppose perception is everything. 

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Re: Starting too high?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2018, 06:03:48 pm »