HCG, DHEA and pregnenolone

[sh1209]

I've did lots of reading over the years regarding hormones and been on TRT close to 9 years with mediocre results. There's theories out there regarding backfilling pathways with these three compounds, but positive results from these seem to be very evasive at best. I have tried all three at times, either alone or in combination with only side effects. I know for certain, at least for me, that HCG doesn't budge pregnenolone, DHEA or progesterone, verified by labs. It seems HCG causes more problems in general than positive results for a good number of men including myself and the same with DHEA and pregnenolone. To my knowledge anyone on TRT will be deficient in these upstream hormones, but is that just the way for the human body to attain homeostasis with the introduction of exogenous testosterone. I'm a firm believer that the less medications {hormones} the better and for me that certainly holds true. I wonder if more men were started on TRT with testosterone only, if there would be more success. The same with anastrozole, why on earth would a physician start a patient on this with our seeing a symptomatic response and labs after several weeks. For me testosterone only seems to be the ticket. Any thoughts appreciated.

[Cataceous]

At least for around here you're not saying anything very controversial. Results of supplementing with these are quite variable. It's quite reasonable to start TRT without hCG to see if it does the job. And we always suggest holding off on anastrozole until there's good evidence it's needed. There are various reasons a physician might prescribe an AI upfront: laziness, playing the odds, assuming a lack of patience from guys who don't want a slow dialing-in process, etc.

Personally I've been happy with hCG and DHEA, but I'm not sure about pregnenolone.

[sh1209]

I can take dhea but only 5-10mg per day without bad side effects. That amount will put my levels about the center of the range for dheas. 10mg raises my estradiol 6-7 points with the sensitive assay, so perhaps that’s why higher doses cause problems for me. HCG for me is literally like taking a muscle relaxer, I just feel lethargic and depressed even with small doses. Funny how subjective these things are.

[HRD LVN]

I love HCG it cured all the testis issues I got from T mono for 6 months with my first doc.

However I had bad sides with pregnenolone, DHEA, progesterone supplements.
This is probably bro-science that I came to my own conclusion all three of these are T and E2 building blocks and since I was taking T and did not need my body to make its own all these supplements did was give my body more materials to make E2. So with that mind set and the bad side effects I don't take them.

[sh1209]

That definitely makes sense hrdlvn.

[HRT Guru]

If HCG worked to mimic LH at least the way the Nelson states it does, no guy would need to supplement DHEA or Preg as the HCG would spur that downstream conversion. But like you as much as 500 3XW never budged my DHEA-S. Direct use of DHEA for me spikes my E and I gave it up a few years ago. Likewise HCG just seems to flatten me out, possible E conversion there, too, but not sure about that. I've cut to just 200iu once per week and I think even that bothers me.

[sh1209]

If HCG worked to mimic LH at least the way the Nelson states it does, no guy would need to supplement DHEA or Preg as the HCG would spur that downstream conversion. But like you as much as 500 3XW never budged my DHEA-S. Direct use of DHEA for me spikes my E and I gave it up a few years ago. Likewise HCG just seems to flatten me out, possible E conversion there, too, but not sure about that. I've cut to just 200iu once per week and I think even that bothers me.

You’re exactly right Guru, some people swear the dhea won’t raise estradiol but I know from labs that it does in fact raise it. Really dhea only has two paths, estrogen or androstenedione and in a good number of men including you and it leads to a rise in estrogen. I firmly believe if you get your test dose right the rest will fall in line. Hcg is by far the worst thing I’ve ever used as far as side effects. I’ve had a vasectomy so fertility isn’t a concern. This is just my opinion but I believe the backfilling of pathways is total rubbish.

[Cataceous]

... some people swear the dhea won’t raise estradiol but I know from labs that it does in fact raise it. Really dhea only has two paths, estrogen or androstenedione and in a good number of men including you and it leads to a rise in estrogen. ...

Was this with or without TRT? Various studies in normal men—without TRT—have not found this effect, even at doses to 400 mg/day. So it would have to be uncommon under such circumstances. Potentially something else happens with HPTA shutdown, but we don't have the research to confirm this.

A dichotomy is too restrictive regarding where DHEA can go. As seen below, DHEA has at least seven possible metabolites, including testosterone and DHT. The tests on normal men show the excess typically ends up as estrone. http://www.peaktestosterone.com/What_Hormones_Does_DHEA_Change

[sh1209]

In my case it was with trt and the only changed variable at the time. Same with hcg except a sharper rise in estradiol. I’m really sensitive to changes in E2. Mine normally sits in the lower 20s with total t in the 700-800ng range. With 25mg of dhea and changing nothing else it was 32 with the sensitive assay.

[electrify]

Pregnenolone but not HCG seems important for me at least. I minimize HVG but still use it 2x a week ish.

Missing pregnenolone for a few days I do feel like my HPA axis gets affected

[Paco1973]

That's odd. My DHEA has always been high. It's a wonder I have any hair left. LOL

I like taking HCG. Yeah, it drives up the estrogen, but it helps in the fertility department. Plus, having a sack that looks like a toddler's is just strange. I prefer to keep the boys full. I did almost 7 years without HCG in my protocol. I have labs from semen analysis that show it works for fertility (if that's your thing).

I will admit, the downside is HCG makes me break out more. Hormonal acne is a bear to manage.

[Cataceous]

... I prefer to keep the boys full. I did almost 7 years without HCG in my protocol. I have labs from semen analysis that show it works for fertility (if that's your thing).
...

So you reversed testicular atrophy and improved fertility after seven years of straight TRT without hCG? I'd like to use you as an example, because concerns about permanent losses under TRT are common...

[Paco1973]

... I prefer to keep the boys full. I did almost 7 years without HCG in my protocol. I have labs from semen analysis that show it works for fertility (if that's your thing).
...

So you reversed testicular atrophy and improved fertility after seven years of straight TRT without hCG? I'd like to use you as an example, because concerns about permanent losses under TRT are common...

That's right. 7 years with NO HCG. I introduced HCG, and started making swimmers. I later switched to Clomid, and that really brought my numbers up. TRT does NOT cause permanent sterility. Someone, I can't remember who, said that we have a name for men who think their wives can't get pregnant while on trt. We call them fathers. Maybe it was Dr. Crisler. Anyhow, atrophy and sterility is definitely not permanent.