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Author Topic: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?  (Read 1297 times)

Redrak

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2019, 08:45:08 pm »
good info!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 08:47:30 pm by Redrak »

R2D2

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2019, 04:19:53 am »
...
Is it true that normal guys have free T of c. 15 ng/dL? Is this at peak or trough? Or is this an average? Are there any references?
...

I guess what I was thinking about here was the diurnal variation (min/max values) more than anything else. And what the range of say the middle 50% fell under. I think there was a study that perhaps you or someone else shared about diurnal variation. I just wondered whether something more pervasive has been performed.

The hormone levels I referenced are close to peak values, measured in the AM. The Chinese study has 50% ranges in "young adults" as 400-560 for total testosterone (TT) and 8.6-11.8 for cFT.

That diurnal study is showing a 30% drop in TT for young guys over the day. But other studies have shown greater than 50%. That's not a trivial amount. Guys injecting T cypionate every couple weeks have hormone swings like that, which cause various problems. Clearly it's quite different when the variation occurs over the course of each day.

Wow. Very interesting. I have been pursuing 'daily' levels much greater than that. No wonder I haven't been experiencing much success.

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2019, 04:19:53 am »


Cataceous

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2019, 07:23:21 am »
...
Wow. Very interesting. I have been pursuing 'daily' levels much greater than that. No wonder I haven't been experiencing much success.

It's possible this is a contributing factor, but no guarantees. For guys who have the patience, experimenting with different levels could be worthwhile, giving each one a significant period of time, like at least two months.

Another thing to consider is that, because of tradeoffs, maybe there is no optimal level. This is what I've been saying about estradiol. In the case of testosterone, higher levels may be good for muscle building and body composition, but what if lower levels work better for other parameters, such as libido and sexual function?
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

Mr.L

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2019, 08:42:38 am »
...
Wow. Very interesting. I have been pursuing 'daily' levels much greater than that. No wonder I haven't been experiencing much success.


It's possible this is a contributing factor, but no guarantees. For guys who have the patience, experimenting with different levels could be worthwhile, giving each one a significant period of time, like at least two months.

Another thing to consider is that, because of tradeoffs, maybe there is no optimal level. This is what I've been saying about estradiol. In the case of testosterone, higher levels may be good for muscle building and body composition, but what if lower levels work better for other parameters, such as libido and sexual function?

I think this a reasonable theory. I believe different  functions require different levels and that is why these hormones vary from time to time. Thinking of evolution, a crazy high libido wouldn't be all that advantageous at times and that is probably why it isn't like that for most people. Further, if we were driven to work hard too often energy for other things may suffer and fuel may become an issue as well. I think our circumstances may dictate hormone levels to a certain extant. When faced with certain situations our body will respond accordingly. However we have kind of thrown a wrench in the evolutionary process by the way we live. Tons of things affect this like social structures, availability and types of food, sedentary lifestyle, meds and drugs and so on. I think there is no "Optimal chronic level/steady state" but that it probably should vary from time to time. I know my libido seems to be sparked more by a change in E2 rather than a constant level. What I mean is that all of the times I have had really strong libido since going on TRT has been when I have crashed my E2 and hold the AI for a while. I don't try to mimic this on purpose because I feel better emotionally if my E2 is stable. 

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2019, 08:42:38 am »


Cataceous

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2019, 08:52:52 am »
Good points, Mr. L. As an example, we know that calorie restriction lowers testosterone, which makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint: if there's any danger of starvation then you better be thinking about finding your next meal, not sex. In addition, you want to switch to catabolism, essentially eating your own muscles to survive the hard times.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

HRD LVN

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2019, 10:44:02 am »

I think this a reasonable theory. I believe different  functions require different levels and that is why these hormones vary from time to time. Thinking of evolution, a crazy high libido wouldn't be all that advantageous at times and that is probably why it isn't like that for most people. Further, if we were driven to work hard too often energy for other things may suffer and fuel may become an issue as well. I think our circumstances may dictate hormone levels to a certain extant. When faced with certain situations our body will respond accordingly. However we have kind of thrown a wrench in the evolutionary process by the way we live. Tons of things affect this like social structures, availability and types of food, sedentary lifestyle, meds and drugs and so on. I think there is no "Optimal chronic level/steady state" but that it probably should vary from time to time. I know my libido seems to be sparked more by a change in E2 rather than a constant level. What I mean is that all of the times I have had really strong libido since going on TRT has been when I have crashed my E2 and hold the AI for a while. I don't try to mimic this on purpose because I feel better emotionally if my E2 is stable.
That makes total sense MrL. Women have cycles where their hormones fluxuate wildly I wonder if men do as well just not so wildly. In other works are there times of the year where natural men become horny?

We do seem to be the only species on the planet that no longer naturally evolves like all the other animals. Survival of the fittest and all that.

ghce

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2019, 03:48:37 pm »
...
Wow. Very interesting. I have been pursuing 'daily' levels much greater than that. No wonder I haven't been experiencing much success.


It's possible this is a contributing factor, but no guarantees. For guys who have the patience, experimenting with different levels could be worthwhile, giving each one a significant period of time, like at least two months.

Another thing to consider is that, because of tradeoffs, maybe there is no optimal level. This is what I've been saying about estradiol. In the case of testosterone, higher levels may be good for muscle building and body composition, but what if lower levels work better for other parameters, such as libido and sexual function?

I think this a reasonable theory. I believe different  functions require different levels and that is why these hormones vary from time to time. Thinking of evolution, a crazy high libido wouldn't be all that advantageous at times and that is probably why it isn't like that for most people. Further, if we were driven to work hard too often energy for other things may suffer and fuel may become an issue as well. I think our circumstances may dictate hormone levels to a certain extant. When faced with certain situations our body will respond accordingly. However we have kind of thrown a wrench in the evolutionary process by the way we live. Tons of things affect this like social structures, availability and types of food, sedentary lifestyle, meds and drugs and so on. I think there is no "Optimal chronic level/steady state" but that it probably should vary from time to time. I know my libido seems to be sparked more by a change in E2 rather than a constant level. What I mean is that all of the times I have had really strong libido since going on TRT has been when I have crashed my E2 and hold the AI for a while. I don't try to mimic this on purpose because I feel better emotionally if my E2 is stable. 

It been my thinking for a long time that levels need to vary, constant levels I beleive are a very bad thing indeed, if you want to have a more natural life as these hormones are in a constant state of flux.

I have always varied my T protocol dosages on a daily and weekly level however at the moment I am back on Clomid (low dose) and am keeping this dosage at a constant level as the T generated is endogenous and hopefully all the other HPTA hormones are in natural step also.
Age:57, Height 6' 3" weight 92.5KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Oral Andriol 160mg Daily
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 

Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

R2D2

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2019, 07:07:45 pm »
Interestingly, I have found that when I administer a propionate shot in the morning - my circadian rhythm is superb. No alarm clock needed. At least per a 3 week trial vs. PM where 4 hours after the shot, I begin to feel restless (even though in theory - this is a small level above my trough level).

I'm still trialling this PM experiment inspired by the theory that peak levels ought to be reached shortly after waking (I detest the trough in the morning unless im on a much higher dose/shot), however, so far, I am struggling a little (due to the later hour I find myself sleeping). It could be  interesting if it were true that diurnal variation links in to a number of other/pervasive bodily systems e.g.

- did we originally hunt more in the early AM/day than afternoon/PM (I'm making a case for higher T levels in the morning)?
- Are lower T levels (but perhaps better T/E ratio) linked to optimal sexual function?
- Does the body measure the 'rate of change' as a means to deduce which activity it is preparing for i.e. rising levels + certain ratio = peak strength and alertness, decreasing levels + certain ratio = enhanced sexual function / preparing for sleep / increased melatonin?

I'm obviously throwing a number of unsubstantiated and 'blue sky' guesses out there, and haven't considered the impact of modern ways of living e.g artificial light etc. But this current experiment does have me wonder more about the 'direction' of the diurnal variation (upward vs downward) and the impact it has on the body.

R2D2

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2019, 07:13:48 pm »
...
Wow. Very interesting. I have been pursuing 'daily' levels much greater than that. No wonder I haven't been experiencing much success.


It's possible this is a contributing factor, but no guarantees. For guys who have the patience, experimenting with different levels could be worthwhile, giving each one a significant period of time, like at least two months.

Another thing to consider is that, because of tradeoffs, maybe there is no optimal level. This is what I've been saying about estradiol. In the case of testosterone, higher levels may be good for muscle building and body composition, but what if lower levels work better for other parameters, such as libido and sexual function?

I think this a reasonable theory. I believe different  functions require different levels and that is why these hormones vary from time to time. Thinking of evolution, a crazy high libido wouldn't be all that advantageous at times and that is probably why it isn't like that for most people. Further, if we were driven to work hard too often energy for other things may suffer and fuel may become an issue as well. I think our circumstances may dictate hormone levels to a certain extant. When faced with certain situations our body will respond accordingly. However we have kind of thrown a wrench in the evolutionary process by the way we live. Tons of things affect this like social structures, availability and types of food, sedentary lifestyle, meds and drugs and so on. I think there is no "Optimal chronic level/steady state" but that it probably should vary from time to time. I know my libido seems to be sparked more by a change in E2 rather than a constant level. What I mean is that all of the times I have had really strong libido since going on TRT has been when I have crashed my E2 and hold the AI for a while. I don't try to mimic this on purpose because I feel better emotionally if my E2 is stable. 

It been my thinking for a long time that levels need to vary, constant levels I beleive are a very bad thing indeed, if you want to have a more natural life as these hormones are in a constant state of flux.

I have always varied my T protocol dosages on a daily and weekly level however at the moment I am back on Clomid (low dose) and am keeping this dosage at a constant level as the T generated is endogenous and hopefully all the other HPTA hormones are in natural step also.

@ghce - I don't mean to go off-topic here, but I just noticed your Mar 17 result in your sig. Was you taking any AI to reach these results? Was your E high? Just curious about your protocol

Cataceous

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2019, 10:05:37 am »
Interestingly, I have found that when I administer a propionate shot in the morning - my circadian rhythm is superb. No alarm clock needed. At least per a 3 week trial vs. PM where 4 hours after the shot, I begin to feel restless (even though in theory - this is a small level above my trough level).

I'm still trialling this PM experiment inspired by the theory that peak levels ought to be reached shortly after waking (I detest the trough in the morning unless im on a much higher dose/shot), however, so far, I am struggling a little (due to the later hour I find myself sleeping). It could be  interesting if it were true that diurnal variation links in to a number of other/pervasive bodily systems e.g.
...

How confident are you about when your peak is? I've been wondering how we can model our personal pharmacokinetics for the various esters. It doesn't seem to be easy. One approach is to use existing research. With subQ there's already a disadvantage, because there's much less on it. And even the IM studies don't have large enough Ns to include variables like SHBG. Another approach is to take multiple blood tests yourself. But aside from not being fun, you have think hard about your experiment. How do you account for existing hormone levels if you don't want to go through a prolonged and unpleasant washout period?

I suppose that's why in the end it's easier to just try different protocols, consider the subjective results, and get the occasional snapshot of hormone levels via testing.

Related to all this, I'm wondering just what kind of diurnal variation there is with daily propionate? Some simple models based on IM say about 25%. With subQ I'd expect more like 15-20%. This isn't the youthful variation of 30-50%. How to simulate this? Perhaps a daily injection consisting of a smaller base level of a long-lived ester such as T cypionate, in combination with ester-less testosterone. Ideally the injection would be in the very early AM, but maybe upon awakening would be viable. There are still a couple potential problems: The pharmacokinetics of ester-less testosterone, aka TNE, are not well-studied, so it's not clear if the half life would work for this. Also, TNE might have the potential to aromatize directly when injected subcutaneously. It's hard to know in advance if estradiol would be a problem.

...
- did we originally hunt more in the early AM/day than afternoon/PM (I'm making a case for higher T levels in the morning)?
- Are lower T levels (but perhaps better T/E ratio) linked to optimal sexual function?
- Does the body measure the 'rate of change' as a means to deduce which activity it is preparing for i.e. rising levels + certain ratio = peak strength and alertness, decreasing levels + certain ratio = enhanced sexual function / preparing for sleep / increased melatonin?
...

These are interesting and plausible hypotheses. I especially think there's something to the "rate of change" idea. There's a stack of anecdotal evidence suggesting something like this is going on.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

ghce

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2019, 01:41:24 pm »


@ghce - I don't mean to go off-topic here, but I just noticed your Mar 17 result in your sig. Was you taking any AI to reach these results? Was your E high? Just curious about your protocol

No AI at that time, where I am they dont do a proper sensitive E test but just the standard E test which is more female centricly useful.
Age:57, Height 6' 3" weight 92.5KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Oral Andriol 160mg Daily
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 

Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

R2D2

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2019, 07:42:12 pm »
Interestingly, I have found that when I administer a propionate shot in the morning - my circadian rhythm is superb. No alarm clock needed. At least per a 3 week trial vs. PM where 4 hours after the shot, I begin to feel restless (even though in theory - this is a small level above my trough level).

I'm still trialling this PM experiment inspired by the theory that peak levels ought to be reached shortly after waking (I detest the trough in the morning unless im on a much higher dose/shot), however, so far, I am struggling a little (due to the later hour I find myself sleeping). It could be  interesting if it were true that diurnal variation links in to a number of other/pervasive bodily systems e.g.
...

How confident are you about when your peak is? I've been wondering how we can model our personal pharmacokinetics for the various esters. It doesn't seem to be easy. One approach is to use existing research. With subQ there's already a disadvantage, because there's much less on it. And even the IM studies don't have large enough Ns to include variables like SHBG. Another approach is to take multiple blood tests yourself. But aside from not being fun, you have think hard about your experiment. How do you account for existing hormone levels if you don't want to go through a prolonged and unpleasant washout period?

I suppose that's why in the end it's easier to just try different protocols, consider the subjective results, and get the occasional snapshot of hormone levels via testing.


Agreed. I've resorted to 'trying different protocols'. While I have gained an intuitive sense of the effect Propionate and Enanthate have had at different frequencies and doses - it's all subjective. As a result, I couldn't speak confidently about it or make any suggestion to others. That said, for me, it is clear when I have reached my peak (effect on libido, speech, concentration) and also when I've reached my peak when T is too high (stomach feels quite tight). Subjective results are quite consistent, which is why I feel quite confident about this 'intuitive sense'. However, it is far too easy to 'over think' protocols, which is why I have resorted to scaling everything right back (low dose T, no AI, no HCG) to get labs, before introducing any change or anything new (per the advice I've received from the get-go but conveniently ignored!).



Related to all this, I'm wondering just what kind of diurnal variation there is with daily propionate? Some simple models based on IM say about 25%. With subQ I'd expect more like 15-20%. This isn't the youthful variation of 30-50%. How to simulate this? Perhaps a daily injection consisting of a smaller base level of a long-lived ester such as T cypionate, in combination with ester-less testosterone. Ideally the injection would be in the very early AM, but maybe upon awakening would be viable. There are still a couple potential problems: The pharmacokinetics of ester-less testosterone, aka TNE, are not well-studied, so it's not clear if the half life would work for this. Also, TNE might have the potential to aromatize directly when injected subcutaneously. It's hard to know in advance if estradiol would be a problem.


This is very interesting. I wasn't aware of TNE. I wonder if small doses for a maximum of e.g. 1-2 doses administered every 1.5 hours would counter any E problem yet provide the elevation required in the morning and have the longer acting Propionate run it's course during the day.



@ghce - I don't mean to go off-topic here, but I just noticed your Mar 17 result in your sig. Was you taking any AI to reach these results? Was your E high? Just curious about your protocol

No AI at that time, where I am they dont do a proper sensitive E test but just the standard E test which is more female centricly useful.

Thanks for the info
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 07:49:34 pm by R2D2 »

Cataceous

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Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2019, 12:15:14 pm »

Related to all this, I'm wondering just what kind of diurnal variation there is with daily propionate? Some simple models based on IM say about 25%. With subQ I'd expect more like 15-20%. This isn't the youthful variation of 30-50%. How to simulate this? Perhaps a daily injection consisting of a smaller base level of a long-lived ester such as T cypionate, in combination with ester-less testosterone. Ideally the injection would be in the very early AM, but maybe upon awakening would be viable. There are still a couple potential problems: The pharmacokinetics of ester-less testosterone, aka TNE, are not well-studied, so it's not clear if the half life would work for this. Also, TNE might have the potential to aromatize directly when injected subcutaneously. It's hard to know in advance if estradiol would be a problem.


This is very interesting. I wasn't aware of TNE. I wonder if small doses for a maximum of e.g. 1-2 doses administered every 1.5 hours would counter any E problem yet provide the elevation required in the morning and have the longer acting Propionate run it's course during the day.

It comes down to the pharmacokinetics of TNE. Conventional wisdom says that without the ester it's going to have a very short half life, like a few hours. But I'm not convinced. With an oil base (testosterone base) it's still hydrophobic initially, which could slow things down.

It would be great if this could help with the estradiol problem. But it's hard to say without knowing the theoretical basis for the problem. Are slower hormonal variations somehow driving estradiol higher than faster, i.e. daily, variations?
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: Is there really one optimal level of estradiol for an individual?
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2019, 12:15:14 pm »