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Author Topic: estradiol and bone loss  (Read 945 times)

HRD LVN

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2019, 10:37:33 pm »
@Redrak,
If I were you(@your age) I would look into finding a doc that would prescribe Clomiphene.

Clomid for men is used when a low sperm count is caused by low testosterone levels. In some men, a low sperm count is caused by a low testosterone level. Clomid binds to receptors in the brain to increase the production of follicle stimulating hormone, FSH(sperm), and luteinizing hormone, LH(Test). If your balls are still working this will turn them on. If they are broken like mine it will do nothing. But Hea, it's worth a try. That is all we can do is keep trying until we get it figured out. If you rely only on doctors in your area you may never find an answer.

Hope that helps

why endos stopped giving clomid? i saw one endo who told me she does not use clomid... what? right now i have no sperm when eyaculating. what if i want to freeze my sperms? im actually going to ask that. also it seems my endo wants to do some sort of weird cortisol test that i need to stay there for hours taking blood. i wanted to check GnRH TO CHECK if im secundary?

my lh and fsh are both low end. would that mean is my pituitary and not my testis? lastly, yes you say if i keep relying for docs in my area, do you mean i should travel out to seek better docs? i was wondering going for boston or florida for mayo clinics. but im exhausting everything my endo (hospital here where i live) says so she might send me there.
I think you answered you own question. This endo is not going to be able to help you if she is not open to medical treatments.
Many of us here use Defy in Florida yet we don't live any where near Florida we do everything over the phone and thru local blood test.
You could call them and see what a consult would cost. I'm not talking about become a Defy patient consult. Just to talk to a Dr you know will have all the latest medical info and treatment at hand. You can't use insurance its cash but the call is free. It can't hurt.

jacob2001

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2019, 03:22:08 am »
Redrak, lowering carbs may lower fat and make estrogen production even harder. What body type are you....lean and low fat or normal? Id stick with a healthy balanced diet with good quality carbs, fats and proteins and fibre and also supplements such as zinc, vitamin b complex (including b3), vitamin d as well as some calcium and magnesium and see if your numbers improve. if not go for TRT.

hello! well i was wondering maybe lowering carbs BUT upping fats, the thing is, i lose weight fast (i dont truly know why) so if i up fats ill be over 100 grams bulking and sounds weird. well my weight 155 and height 62'' might say it all. yeah im around 13% bf lean. i have a healthy balanced diet already filling almost all nutrients. i did took vit d (4k) and magnesium (around 450) daily and did not saw improvements (if i remember correctly) in fact, first time i saw my t it was total 280 while free 319 that was one lab from like 10 i already took raging from 180 ish to 319 ish. im trying to find the real cause before trt at my age and with random protocols. wouldn't like to touch private yet.

Interesting that you are that lean, it kind of fits in with the low estrogen when combined with lowish T and yes, its a bone health risk. Stick to the balancd diet, dont go low carbs, just stick to healthy carbs, fruit, good protein etc. Even add back some white carbs such as ordinary potatoes, pasta and bread. Lowering carbs at your BF percentage is the last thing you should be doing. But I wonder why you are so lean, are you taking any other supplements at all, such as creatine? Were you always this lean or is it recent and if so what changes did you make to your lifestyle, supplements and diet? I think you might need to to begin looking at exogenous T, both to boost testosterone and raise estrogen. But it is important you do not lose any more fat in the process of doing this.

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2019, 03:22:08 am »


Cataceous

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2019, 03:25:33 am »
Low LH/FSH is suggestive of secondary/tertiary hypogonadism. These are probably signaling issues at the pituitary and hypothalamus, respectively. These make up a large majority of hypogonadism cases. Unfortunately, after blatant brain abnormalities have been ruled out, along with severe deficiencies (e.g. vitamin D) and hormonal imbalances (e.g. high prolactin) then all you can do is call it "idiopathic" and start treating the symptoms. This is the end result for most guys with hypogonadism.

So the advice hasn't changed from responses to your first post: TRT overseen by a good doctor is likely your best bet. Even if Clomid didn't give you anxiety, your elevated SHBG means that you're less likely to achieve good results with it. You could use it temporarily if you want to bank sperm before TRT. Or you could just take hCG with your TRT and hope that is sufficient.

As "HRD LVN" says, Defy Medical is a good option. And as I've said before, I wish I'd gone with them in the beginning instead of messing around with local doctors who had inadequate knowledge.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)SHBG ~30 nmol/L

Flyingfool

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2019, 08:50:30 am »
Red,

Are you high energy?  Are you warmer or tend to be warmer or heat intolerant?  Higher heart rate, anxiety?

Have you had your thyroid checked?  You may have high thyroid.

It would be at least be consistent with low body fat and ease of losing weight.

With the thought of pituitary issue, thyroid is also regulated by the pituitary. So if a pituitary problem exists, it definitely can mess up thyroid as well.
52 year old, 5-7 and 165 lbs.
exercise:swim 3x/wk & marrial arts 2x/wk

Blood tested 9/19/18

Total = 580 ng/dL (250-827) 59.9%
Free T= 6.87 (4.6- 22.4) 12.8% (10.8 calc)

SHBG= 39 10.0-50.0) 72.5%

Bio-avail= 14.2 (110-575) 8.0%

DHES =not tested %

Estradiol = 22 (<39)

DHES =231 (38-313) =45.5% tested 2/14/18

Currently on 50mcg Synthroid (T4)
TSH = 0.99
Free T4 = 1.30 (0.80 - 1.80)  =50.0% of range
Free T3 = 3.3 (2.3-4.2) = 52.6% of range
Current protocol: 100mg DIM once per day. Reduction back from 200 mg. For 12 weeks. raised total T, freeT remained basically unchanged due to increases SHBG. Estradiol decrease from 30 to 22. Felt no better and maybe worse than at 100mg DIM so going back starting 9/25/18

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2019, 08:50:30 am »


Redrak

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2019, 11:02:32 am »
@Redrak,
If I were you(@your age) I would look into finding a doc that would prescribe Clomiphene.

Clomid for men is used when a low sperm count is caused by low testosterone levels. In some men, a low sperm count is caused by a low testosterone level. Clomid binds to receptors in the brain to increase the production of follicle stimulating hormone, FSH(sperm), and luteinizing hormone, LH(Test). If your balls are still working this will turn them on. If they are broken like mine it will do nothing. But Hea, it's worth a try. That is all we can do is keep trying until we get it figured out. If you rely only on doctors in your area you may never find an answer.

Hope that helps

why endos stopped giving clomid? i saw one endo who told me she does not use clomid... what? right now i have no sperm when eyaculating. what if i want to freeze my sperms? im actually going to ask that. also it seems my endo wants to do some sort of weird cortisol test that i need to stay there for hours taking blood. i wanted to check GnRH TO CHECK if im secundary?

my lh and fsh are both low end. would that mean is my pituitary and not my testis? lastly, yes you say if i keep relying for docs in my area, do you mean i should travel out to seek better docs? i was wondering going for boston or florida for mayo clinics. but im exhausting everything my endo (hospital here where i live) says so she might send me there.
I think you answered you own question. This endo is not going to be able to help you if she is not open to medical treatments.
Many of us here use Defy in Florida yet we don't live any where near Florida we do everything over the phone and thru local blood test.
You could call them and see what a consult would cost. I'm not talking about become a Defy patient consult. Just to talk to a Dr you know will have all the latest medical info and treatment at hand. You can't use insurance its cash but the call is free. It can't hurt.

thanks for your time man! altho the main reason im posting this is to, get advice from experts about this (like you guys) and also because i would like advice to know where to go to have a proper dr diagnose and why everything is low because even my igf-1 is low. i would like to see the doctor in person also

Redrak

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2019, 11:04:58 am »
Redrak, lowering carbs may lower fat and make estrogen production even harder. What body type are you....lean and low fat or normal? Id stick with a healthy balanced diet with good quality carbs, fats and proteins and fibre and also supplements such as zinc, vitamin b complex (including b3), vitamin d as well as some calcium and magnesium and see if your numbers improve. if not go for TRT.

hello! well i was wondering maybe lowering carbs BUT upping fats, the thing is, i lose weight fast (i dont truly know why) so if i up fats ill be over 100 grams bulking and sounds weird. well my weight 155 and height 62'' might say it all. yeah im around 13% bf lean. i have a healthy balanced diet already filling almost all nutrients. i did took vit d (4k) and magnesium (around 450) daily and did not saw improvements (if i remember correctly) in fact, first time i saw my t it was total 280 while free 319 that was one lab from like 10 i already took raging from 180 ish to 319 ish. im trying to find the real cause before trt at my age and with random protocols. wouldn't like to touch private yet.

Interesting that you are that lean, it kind of fits in with the low estrogen when combined with lowish T and yes, its a bone health risk. Stick to the balancd diet, dont go low carbs, just stick to healthy carbs, fruit, good protein etc. Even add back some white carbs such as ordinary potatoes, pasta and bread. Lowering carbs at your BF percentage is the last thing you should be doing. But I wonder why you are so lean, are you taking any other supplements at all, such as creatine? Were you always this lean or is it recent and if so what changes did you make to your lifestyle, supplements and diet? I think you might need to to begin looking at exogenous T, both to boost testosterone and raise estrogen. But it is important you do not lose any more fat in the process of doing this.

thanks for your time sir! i suffered from anorexia or body disorder long time ago (still do) and i had my episodes of extreme weight lose a couple of times gaining and losing constantly. everytime i up calories to gain weight i freak out and cut calories. im with a therapist and will probably be put on ssri or wellbutrin for ocd and suicidal thoughts

Redrak

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2019, 11:11:20 am »
Low LH/FSH is suggestive of secondary/tertiary hypogonadism. These are probably signaling issues at the pituitary and hypothalamus, respectively. These make up a large majority of hypogonadism cases. Unfortunately, after blatant brain abnormalities have been ruled out, along with severe deficiencies (e.g. vitamin D) and hormonal imbalances (e.g. high prolactin) then all you can do is call it "idiopathic" and start treating the symptoms. This is the end result for most guys with hypogonadism.

So the advice hasn't changed from responses to your first post: TRT overseen by a good doctor is likely your best bet. Even if Clomid didn't give you anxiety, your elevated SHBG means that you're less likely to achieve good results with it. You could use it temporarily if you want to bank sperm before TRT. Or you could just take hCG with your TRT and hope that is sufficient.

As "HRD LVN" says, Defy Medical is a good option. And as I've said before, I wish I'd gone with them in the beginning instead of messing around with local doctors who had inadequate knowledge.

testosterone Total: 2.87 ng/dl reference 5.05-19.8
testosterone free: 191 ng/dl reference 240-950
Estradiol: 8
tsh 1.81
t4 free 1.05 from .93-1.70
t3 free 1.87 from 2.00 4.40
SHBG : 56.
LH: 2.3 FROM 1.70-8.60
FSH:1.48 FROM 1.50-12.40
IGF-1 NG/ML 87,50 FROM 116.00-358.00
prolactin: 13 from 4.0-15

Dhea-S:6 low

this are my current latest labs. vit d was normal and if you need it let me know. i dont truly know if i qualify for secundary hypo tho. i always thought maybe my diet is bad or needs fixing or maybe my sleep is bad because im not getting 8 hours and constantly waking up too pee and not being able to get back to sleep 20 min after or so. it doesnt matter if i reduce water intake i urinate a lot during the day. constantly feeling cold etc. finding a doc who knows about clomid or hcg is the biggest issue around here. i was wondering of going to a good hospital in the usa to take care of this. i think you remember my adenoma but the best neuro around here said its not the cause of my hormonal issues and its something else (neuro doesnt know much about labs im guessing and endo is the one who rules thisnout) he thinks because prolactin is normal nothing the tumor is not the cause. im a guy who likes to see the doctor in person

main reason im scared to trt is because what if i find the cause and can fix it? and also if i would drop trt i might not regain my natural one when i might know the cause of the problem? ultimately. psychologist wants me to put me on low dose of wellbutrin or ssris to counter suicidal thoughts and ocd
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 11:21:18 am by Redrak »

Redrak

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2019, 08:19:55 pm »
Red,

Are you high energy?  Are you warmer or tend to be warmer or heat intolerant?  Higher heart rate, anxiety?

Have you had your thyroid checked?  You may have high thyroid.

It would be at least be consistent with low body fat and ease of losing weight.

With the thought of pituitary issue, thyroid is also regulated by the pituitary. So if a pituitary problem exists, it definitely can mess up thyroid as well.

ive seen my pulse at 38. no, im actually cold everyday i constantly feel cold. my t3 is lowish but t3 can be low due to underweight too?

Redrak

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2019, 10:30:44 pm »
Get a DEXA scan. When I was hypogonadal I had a scan showing borderline osteopenia. After a year of TRT a subsequent scan showed normal bone density.

thanks a lot! did you experience any pain before trt due to osteopenia?
also how on earth do i have such low estradiol while not taking any medication.

diet:

protein: chicken salmon ground beef eggs
carbs: rice, potato, sweet potato pasta oats bread
veggies: carrots broc**** cauliflour onion spinach
fruits: papaya strawberry banana and avocado (50 grams to be exact)
fats: pb coconut oil butter (natural) cheese cashews and avocado

breakfast:

oats, eggs (styr fried), coffee

lunch: pasta with chicken and cheese or rice with chicken and spinach.

dinner: either sweet potato or red potato with salmon or ground beef and 2-3 servings of veggies

before bed: 4 slices of bread, banana, papaya, strawberry, pb and some cashews.

macros:

protein: 155
carbs: 380
fats: around 95

6'2'' weight 154


Man you eat a BUNCH of carbs. How old are you?

As for bone density did you check your Vitamin D level?

Are you taking K2 vitamin in Mk7 form?

hehe yeah im doing full body 3 days per week. 26 atm.
yup vit d is normal range. not taking any supps or medications.


EVERYONE should take at least Vitamin D, Vitamin K, magnesium and Omega 3.

You MUST take at least Vitamin D + vitamin K and Magnesium if you have bone density issues.

Check your blood vitamin D level 25 OH. It should be around 60-80 ng/ml.

I take 200 mg of magnesium citrate water suluble powered before bed. Some take 400 mg, some even more. I found my right dosage at 200mg.

i took vit d, magnesium and eat salmon atleast 3 days per week. i took like 400 mg of magnesium before bed. still didn't saw improvements.  havent taken vit k yet. omega 3 have it but dont take it. 25- HYDROXY VIT D 44.17 taken at 8 am.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 10:33:03 pm by Redrak »

sportguy

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2019, 11:27:00 pm »
44 for vitamin D isnt so bad, best range values for many skilled doctors is between 50-80 so a  bit higher than yours. How many IU are you taking per day?

Do you eat raw or cooked salmon? If coocked how do you fix it? Is it wild or farmed salmon?

Vitamin K is the most important thing for bone density since its function is to fix calcium in bones. Take it in Mk7 form (the most absorbable), take it during a meal with fats but not with Vitamin D toghether. If you take D for breakfast take K for dinner or lunch. Seems the common dosage is 200mcg per day. But I have heard and seen even more. in dubt buy take 200mcg per day in Mk7 form.

Anyway you said you suffered and are you suffering from anorexia? You have fear to eat too many calories?

Why you have O3 but you dont take them?




« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 11:59:01 pm by sportguy »

ghce

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2019, 02:49:27 am »
To be blunt about it you need to fix your T levels, experimenting with other supplements other than the basics such as Vit D3 and Vit B complex is unlikely to achieve any significant increases to your T or much help your E2, thyroid is worth getting a good evaluation of as has been suggested.

Clomid is likely the best starting point, even if not successful for you it stops the future "what if's" If clomid fails then full on TRT with HCG to preserve fertility.

With the levels of T that you have supplements wont help a damn.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 02:51:47 am by ghce »
Age:57, Height 6' 3" weight 92.5KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Andriol 160mg
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 

Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

Redrak

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2019, 08:08:14 am »
44 for vitamin D isnt so bad, best range values for many skilled doctors is between 50-80 so a  bit higher than yours. How many IU are you taking per day?

Do you eat raw or cooked salmon? If coocked how do you fix it? Is it wild or farmed salmon?

Vitamin K is the most important thing for bone density since its function is to fix calcium in bones. Take it in Mk7 form (the most absorbable), take it during a meal with fats but not with Vitamin D toghether. If you take D for breakfast take K for dinner or lunch. Seems the common dosage is 200mcg per day. But I have heard and seen even more. in dubt buy take 200mcg per day in Mk7 form.

Anyway you said you suffered and are you suffering from anorexia? You have fear to eat too many calories?

Why you have O3 but you dont take them?

currently i dont take any supplements and all my labs are normal except hormones im taking 2800-3000 cals per day with .5-6 fat xbw. yes not anorexia but eating disorder

Redrak

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2019, 08:10:07 am »
To be blunt about it you need to fix your T levels, experimenting with other supplements other than the basics such as Vit D3 and Vit B complex is unlikely to achieve any significant increases to your T or much help your E2, thyroid is worth getting a good evaluation of as has been suggested.

Clomid is likely the best starting point, even if not successful for you it stops the future "what if's" If clomid fails then full on TRT with HCG to preserve fertility.

With the levels of T that you have supplements wont help a damn.

thanks mate. i already tried with supplement and saw no improvement. t3 is low. i do however might need a skilled endo for even clomid

sportguy

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2019, 09:49:22 am »
To be blunt about it you need to fix your T levels, experimenting with other supplements other than the basics such as Vit D3 and Vit B complex is unlikely to achieve any significant increases to your T or much help your E2, thyroid is worth getting a good evaluation of as has been suggested.

Clomid is likely the best starting point, even if not successful for you it stops the future "what if's" If clomid fails then full on TRT with HCG to preserve fertility.

With the levels of T that you have supplements wont help a damn.

thanks mate. i already tried with supplement and saw no improvement. t3 is low. i do however might need a skilled endo for even clomid

Before taking TRT..... have you tired all these suggestions? https://www.marksdailyapple.com/9-factors-that-influence-testosterone-levels/

sportguy

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2019, 09:53:33 am »
44 for vitamin D isnt so bad, best range values for many skilled doctors is between 50-80 so a  bit higher than yours. How many IU are you taking per day?

Do you eat raw or cooked salmon? If coocked how do you fix it? Is it wild or farmed salmon?

Vitamin K is the most important thing for bone density since its function is to fix calcium in bones. Take it in Mk7 form (the most absorbable), take it during a meal with fats but not with Vitamin D toghether. If you take D for breakfast take K for dinner or lunch. Seems the common dosage is 200mcg per day. But I have heard and seen even more. in dubt buy take 200mcg per day in Mk7 form.

Anyway you said you suffered and are you suffering from anorexia? You have fear to eat too many calories?

Why you have O3 but you dont take them?

currently i dont take any supplements and all my labs are normal except hormones im taking 2800-3000 cals per day with .5-6 fat xbw. yes not anorexia but eating disorder


What kind of eating disorder? Did (or do) you have also some other mental health conditions like depression?

Why are you not taking supplement right now? In previous post you said you were taking Mg + Vit D.

Are you eating cholesterol? saturated fats from animal sources? Meat?

You know that long term caloric restriction will shut down your testosterone? You said that are you still suffering from this eating disorder and you had a huge weight loss recently, that can put a lot of stress to your body.

I wish I could do something to help.

Have you ever checked ferritin? It is a proteine that indicates iron stores in your body, its optimal value should be around 50. Most of the men have it high since we can't dispose of blood (and iron) like women do monthly. High ferritin causes Hypogonadism. Usually nobody check it. Men begin to accumulate iron after 18 years old. Give it a try? it is a simple blood test.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 10:10:53 am by sportguy »

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Re: estradiol and bone loss
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2019, 09:53:33 am »