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Author Topic: Milk and dairy  (Read 745 times)

frcs

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Milk and dairy
« on: February 01, 2019, 07:22:24 am »
Milk is probably my greatest handicap in my diet.
I love milk. And I drink too much. About a litre or two pints daily.
In the past I quit milk several times from 3 days to 40 days.
About 8 years ago when I quit milk for 4 weeks and another 6 weeks I felt better but I returned to it automatically because although I felt better physically without it, my mind was addicted. Some say milk is addictive because it contains opioids.
In the last weeks I started to read about milk again. Its one of those things that I put in the shelf to research later because I like milk a lot.
There are a lot of research about milk and two sides of it.
Milk is full of interesting nutrients but it also has a lot of junk.
It is also a great source of calcium, maybe to much and in a drinkable form. Two pints of milk average 1.2grams of calcium. Calcium stiffens arteries in excess.
But my point with milk is the amount of hormones it contains, specially estrogen, estrone and progesterone. From what I read, milk and dairy account for 70% of estrogens ingested in diet.
The times I quit milk for 2 to 6 weeks I felt better, more energy and a lot more libido. Clear mind, etc. I wonder why.
Is it the hormone side? Contaminants? Excessive chemicals they give cows? Is it the allergens milk has? Milk is an allergen and they can manifest by different ways in different people. For instance, my sister in law had chronic depression, back pain, persistent infections like cystitis, skin issues like acne and eczema for years or decades. One time she quit milk and in two months her symptoms were all gone. One guy I know had asthma amd sinus problems, he gave up milk and symptoms gone.
In a daily basis I feel that milk does not harm me but it may be bad anyways.
Milk today is also very different from what it was decades ago. It may be a source of excessive omega 6 intake due to feed cows take. Cows are also pregnant permanently.
Well the list is long.

What are your opinions on milk?
Do you drink? How much?
Have you quit it? How did you felt after that?

Milk is probably the most difficult thing to shake off of my diet.
Its amazing. I go to bed one night and say. Tomorrow I will not drink milk. The next day I wake up and go directly to it. Its almost like an addict in cigarettes.
Milk is probably a hormone bomb with insanely amounts of sugar and calcium and omega 6. It may have profound effects on testosterone.
Some say that the benefits of quitting dairy just come up in two or three weeks becauseit is the time taken until the proteins and allergens are pushed out of the body.

I am very interested in your opinions.
Thank you

Cataceous

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2019, 08:21:23 am »
I'm interested in this subject too, as I enjoy some nonfat dairy in my diet. I'm considering a trial period without it to see if it makes a subjective difference. There's no shortage of negative innuendo about dairy, but is there much solid evidence against it? I think you should attack this subject as you have others: with a heavy reliance on what's actually in the scientific literature.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)SHBG ~30 nmol/L

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2019, 08:21:23 am »


golfboy307

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2019, 08:24:54 am »
Interesting commentary.  I drink a little bit of milk with cereal or oatmeal in the morning, but otherwise that is it.  We buy the expensive "organic" brand, no hormones, no antibiotics.  It actually tastes better to me. 

One item you forgot to mention is that many people are lactose intolerant.  My wife is allergic to casein which is also in both milk and cheese.  She gets bloated and gassy if she consumes much of either product. 

Like many foods, there is a "good" and "bad" side to milk.  You can read as much as you want about either view.  If you feel better without it you should keep trying.  How about almond milk as a substitute?
Age 51, 5'10, 155 lbs
Cholesterol 162 (HDL 59, LDL 87, Trigs 88, LDL-P 850)
Fasting Glucose 65 (down from 97 pre TRT)
A1C:  5.0 (down from 5.7 per TRT)
Homocysteine:  12.4 > 11.0 > 10.2 > 8.9 using B vitamin therapy.  MTHFR positive 

BP  120/78 (using plant based diet and 10 mg Lisinopril ACE Inhibitor)  145/90 prior to meds.

Current protocol:  50 mg Test Cyp IM every 5 days.  No AI.
2/15/17 labs:  Total T (peak day): 1169 (250 - 1100 ng/dl).  Free T 198 pg/ML (46-225).  Sensitive E2: 40 High.  Previously 32. PSA 0.2  Hemocrit 44.2. SHBG: 32
9/15/18 labs:  Total T (trough day):  598 (250 -1100 ng/dl)  Free T 73.9 (46-225) Sensitive E2: 21  Hemocrit 43.7  SHBG 34


Supplements:  Multivitamin, plus additional B12, B6, D, K2, Red Yeast Rice, Magnesium, and Coq10

Evening stack:  2g Citruline, 2.5G Kyolic garlic, 1 LEF Endothelial defense   2 mg Cialis EOD, or as needed, 1000 mg Vitamin C

Regulus

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2019, 09:05:49 am »
I used to consume a lot of milk and dairy, but have now been vegan for several years.   There's no way to attribute specific positive or negative experiences to having eliminated dairy, as there are plenty of other confounding variables, but I can say that overall I feel great, have good energy, and my lab results are good all around.

It's an annoying vegan trope to bring up, but the fact is that consuming milk past weaning, or consuming the milk of another species at all, is a pretty unusual thing to do in the natural world.   That's not necessarily a conclusive argument against it, but I think it is a conclusive argument against the idea that we somehow need it.

The hormones are I think the strongest argument against it, to my mind, though I also have doubts about whether or not some of the proteins dairy contains are something we are really equipped to deal with.

Almond milk and soy are both good substitutes (tastes vary);  personally I use walnut milk (Elmhurst) in my coffee and on cereal and in white Russians.   Vanilla soy also makes a fine white Russian.

Non-dairy cheeses are getting better, and Kite Hill yogurt (almond milk) is quite good.
Late 40's, on TRT since 2011.
Test cyp 50 mg twice per week
Vegan and loving it since late 2015

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2019, 09:05:49 am »


HRD LVN

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2019, 11:03:03 am »
Having an English heritage I am prone to collecting fatty deposites under my eyes.
The Winston Churchill look. So I avoid all dairy since it seem to be the sole source for me.
I have no trouble finding other sources of protein and fat.

Flyingfool

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2019, 12:35:48 pm »
I personally find coconut milk (silk brand I believe is what we get) is better than soy. But taste is a personal preference.

It did take a while to wean myself off milk and to coconut milk. But honestly I dont even drink much coconut milk. And instead have water.

What causes me to change from cows milk was an attempt at the whole 30 diet and also to eliminate a source of sugar (lactose IS sugar by chemical definition). So simply shifting to coconut milk saved sugar calories. And if you look at the lable, coconut milk (unsweetened) actually has MORE calcium than cows milk. So if you are convincing yourself that cows milk is needed for calcium. Well there is better alternatives.

I do still eat cheese.

I did find out that with cows milk, I get a reaction. Mild but real. After drinking milk I get phlegm and have to clear my throat repeatedly. Icecream also gets my stomach churning. So I am not sure if these are allergic reactions or lactose intolerance. But I dont seem to have this when i eat cheese.

I dont have these responses with coconut or almond milk.
52 year old, 5-7 and 165 lbs.
exercise:swim 3x/wk & marrial arts 2x/wk

Blood tested 9/19/18

Total = 580 ng/dL (250-827) 59.9%
Free T= 6.87 (4.6- 22.4) 12.8% (10.8 calc)

SHBG= 39 10.0-50.0) 72.5%

Bio-avail= 14.2 (110-575) 8.0%

DHES =not tested %

Estradiol = 22 (<39)

DHES =231 (38-313) =45.5% tested 2/14/18

Currently on 50mcg Synthroid (T4)
TSH = 0.99
Free T4 = 1.30 (0.80 - 1.80)  =50.0% of range
Free T3 = 3.3 (2.3-4.2) = 52.6% of range
Current protocol: 100mg DIM once per day. Reduction back from 200 mg. For 12 weeks. raised total T, freeT remained basically unchanged due to increases SHBG. Estradiol decrease from 30 to 22. Felt no better and maybe worse than at 100mg DIM so going back starting 9/25/18

golfboy307

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2019, 01:35:48 pm »
I love a vegan guy that drinks white Russians... outstanding! 
Age 51, 5'10, 155 lbs
Cholesterol 162 (HDL 59, LDL 87, Trigs 88, LDL-P 850)
Fasting Glucose 65 (down from 97 pre TRT)
A1C:  5.0 (down from 5.7 per TRT)
Homocysteine:  12.4 > 11.0 > 10.2 > 8.9 using B vitamin therapy.  MTHFR positive 

BP  120/78 (using plant based diet and 10 mg Lisinopril ACE Inhibitor)  145/90 prior to meds.

Current protocol:  50 mg Test Cyp IM every 5 days.  No AI.
2/15/17 labs:  Total T (peak day): 1169 (250 - 1100 ng/dl).  Free T 198 pg/ML (46-225).  Sensitive E2: 40 High.  Previously 32. PSA 0.2  Hemocrit 44.2. SHBG: 32
9/15/18 labs:  Total T (trough day):  598 (250 -1100 ng/dl)  Free T 73.9 (46-225) Sensitive E2: 21  Hemocrit 43.7  SHBG 34


Supplements:  Multivitamin, plus additional B12, B6, D, K2, Red Yeast Rice, Magnesium, and Coq10

Evening stack:  2g Citruline, 2.5G Kyolic garlic, 1 LEF Endothelial defense   2 mg Cialis EOD, or as needed, 1000 mg Vitamin C

ADHDandOCD

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2019, 10:08:37 pm »
I hear so much stuff going both ways with milk from a nutritional standpoint.  What I do is drink only small amounts and preferably not every day to try to mitigate some of the things fcrs mentioned.  Considering I am usually starved of nutrients like Vitamin A, Calcium, Magnesium, and Potassium I am willing to drink milk if it means having those elements in my diet or not as I am a college student.  I try to find alternative sources of those nutrients, but I agree that milk is a good source to get a lot of nutritional components all in one. 

My doctor is totally anti milk ever and has wanted me to try that for a long time and I have.  I actually felt somewhat better, but not overwhelmingly so.  I've even had times where having milk around actually has gotten me to bed and even improved my mood (might be placebo who knows), but I have seen it go both ways.  It seems for me to depend a lot on how much I drink it and how often. 

ADHDandOCD

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2019, 10:10:10 pm »
Also, are we talking fat-free, skim, 1%, 2%, whole, breastmilk (had to throw that in there, haha)?  I think that aspect is really important to consider as well.  Whole milk and fat-free milk will impact one differently.  Just something to keep in mind. 

frcs

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2019, 06:43:31 am »
True. I read a study where they checked the differences between fat milk, 2% and skim milk. The milk who has more estrogens and progesterone is fat milk followed by 2% milk. The content of hormones in fat free milk or skim milk is almost free of contaminants and hormones. I will put the link of the study later

frcs

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 06:44:40 pm »
Well, after a lot of reading im done with dairy.
Specially butter, cheese and cream.
Its going to be hell and a mind battle, crawling walls but its over for me.
No milk forbreakfast is hell but its over too. No more creme brulee for dessert.

Today I had an appointment with a clinical nutrition doctor. Even these guys are now against milk and wheat. After all gluten is not the enemy but fructans in wheat. Even these guys are talking in leaky gut, not a myth as it seemed. Or I mean, I wanted to be a myth.
Good news are, one can eat a pizza, or a bit of dairy like once a week or twice a month.
I spent the last 7 years eating butter like mad. Butter is a bomb of progesterone and hormones. I fell in the internet fad of butter. I also fell in the coconut oil but gladly for a short period like 4 months but saw my cholesterol hitting the 300s.
Anyways, from now on, no dairy, just lean meats, fish etc. No more gordon ramsey recipes. Hell


frcs

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2019, 06:28:47 pm »
High estrogenic fungus/mycotoxin found in dairy

Zearalenone
Zearalenone is fairly rapidly absorbed following oral exposure (Dailey et al., 1980). Following a single oral dose of 10 mg zearalenone/kg body weight to 15 to 25 kg pigs, the absorption was approximated to be 80 to 85% (Biehl et al., 1993). Zearalenone and associated metabolites were found in the plasma of a pig in less than 30 minutes after initiating feeding with parent compound. Following zearalenone administration, zearalenone can be localized in reproductive tissues (ovary and uterus), adipose tissue and interstitial cells of the testes (Kuiper-Goodman et al., 1987). The reported biological half-life of total plasma zearalenone radioactivity following the oral dosage in pigs is 86 hours (Biehl et al., 1993). Zearalenone undergoes both phase I and phase II metabolism with involvement of 3α- and 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzymes catalyzing the first biotransformation step. Reduction of the keto group at C-6′ during phase I metabolism results in α- or β-zearalenol. Further reduction of the C11C12 double bonds results in α- or β-zearalanol. Species differences in zearalenone susceptibility might be related to hepatic biotransformation, with the highest amount of α-zearalenol produced by pig hepatic microsomes, whereas chicken microsomes produced the highest amounts of β-zearalenol (Malekinejad et al., 2005). Humans metabolize zearalenone to α-zearalenol, a more estrogenic compound.
Pigs readily conjugated almost all absorbed zearalenone and α-zearalenol through glucuronidation. While the liver plays a major role in glucuronidation, the intestinal mucosa is active. Zearalenone was reduced to α- and β-zearalenol in sow intestinal mucosa homogenates (duodenum and jejunum) in vitro (Olsen et al., 1987). Gastrointestinal flora can aid in the metabolism of zearalenone. Zearalenone can undergo rumen metabolism, with reduction to mostly α-zearalenol and to a lower amount of β-zearalenol (Kiesseling et al., 1984). Whether rumen metabolism will increase or decrease zearalenone toxicity depends on absorption by the gastrointestinal tract, liver metabolism by hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, and competition at the cytosolic estrogen receptor sites in the animal species.
Zearalenone undergoes extensive enterohepatic circulation and biliary excretion in most species. The major route of excretion for most species is through the feces, although rabbits primarily excrete zearalenone in the urine. Most zearalenone administered in a dose is excreted within a 72-hour period. Approximately 94% of radiolabeled zearalenone, given orally to white Leghorn laying hens at 10 mg/kg body weight, was eliminated through the excreta within 72 hours post-dosing (Dailey et al., 1980). No major retention of radiolabeled activity was found in edible muscle tissue, but lipophilic metabolite(s) were reported in egg yolk (at about 2 mg/kg concentration) 72 hours post-dosing.
Concern has focused on potential residue of zearalenone and its metabolites in milk, eggs and foods, and precocious development of sexual characteristics in young girls (Kuiper-Goodman et al., 1987; JECFA, 2001). Zearalenone and α- and β-zearalenols can be transmitted into the milk of sheep, cows and pigs administered high doses of zearalenone (Hagler et al., 1980; Mirocha et al., 1981). Hyperestrogenism has been reported in lamb and pig nursing dams dosed with zearalenone (Hagler et al., 1980; Palyusik et al., 1980). Dairy cows fed rations with purified zearalenone at 50 mg zearalenone/day and 165 mg zearalenone/day for 21 days had no detectable concentrations of zearalenone or α and β-zearalenol in the milk or plasma (Prelusky et al., 1990). One cow dosed with 544.5 mg zearalenone/day for 21 days had maximum concentrations of 2.5 ng zearalenone/ml and 3.0 ng α-zearalenol/ml in the milk. Cows dosed orally with a one-day dose of 1.8 or 6 g zearalenone had maximum milk levels on day 2 of 4.0 and 6.1 ng zearalenone/ml, respectively. This research indicates that minimal transmission of zearalenone occurs into milk and only for a short period of time after exposure to high concentrations of zearalenone.
Following intubations of tritiated zearalenone into the crops of 7-week-old broiler chickens, the greatest accumulation of radioactivity occurred in the liver 30 minutes post-administration, which became a trace of radioactivity by 48 hours post-administration (Mirocha et al., 1982). Only zearalenone was detected in muscle tissue at approximately 4 ppb at 48 hours post-administration, indicating the zearalenone residues in edible tissue is minimal.

Cataceous

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2019, 07:29:19 pm »
High estrogenic fungus/mycotoxin found in dairy
...
Quote
... This research indicates that minimal transmission of zearalenone occurs into milk and only for a short period of time after exposure to high concentrations of zearalenone.
?
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)SHBG ~30 nmol/L

Joe Sixpack

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2019, 07:47:36 pm »
Well, after a lot of reading im done with dairy.
Specially butter, cheese and cream.
Its going to be hell and a mind battle, crawling walls but its over for me.
No milk forbreakfast is hell but its over too. No more creme brulee for dessert.

Today I had an appointment with a clinical nutrition doctor. Even these guys are now against milk and wheat. After all gluten is not the enemy but fructans in wheat. Even these guys are talking in leaky gut, not a myth as it seemed. Or I mean, I wanted to be a myth.
Good news are, one can eat a pizza, or a bit of dairy like once a week or twice a month.
I spent the last 7 years eating butter like mad. Butter is a bomb of progesterone and hormones. I fell in the internet fad of butter. I also fell in the coconut oil but gladly for a short period like 4 months but saw my cholesterol hitting the 300s.
Anyways, from now on, no dairy, just lean meats, fish etc. No more gordon ramsey recipes. Hell
Would the organic butters have all the hormone issues?  I would hope that they wouldn't be giving exogenous hormones to the organic cows.
Age: 55, Ht: 5'08", Wt: 155 lbs
Protocol: 25 mg T Cyp + 25 IU HCG M,W,F + 2 clicks T Cream + 15mg DHEA + 15mg Pregnenalone daily.
12/2018 test results: TT: 1054 ng/dL (264-916), FT: 17.2 pg/mL (7.2-24), E2: 21.6 pg/mL sensitive (8.0-35.0)

frcs

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2019, 09:48:41 pm »
The more I read about milk and wheat the more I get confused.

I dont feel bad but I feel I could be better than I am.

So what might have changed? The quality of foods or the integrity of my digestive system? I dont know.

I started to read wheat articles in 2009, then I read wheat belly, etc. I didnt identify any similarities in my body. I dont get bloated or nausea from it. Or at least I dont feel 99% of symptoms of wheat symptoms. But recently I felt some that they consider extra-digestive symptoms.

I found this extensive article which got me thinking:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4809873/

The study has a lot of references in the end and by chance was done in a country where wheat consumption is huge. Italy.

I had no idea wheat could increase prolactin levels ( less dopamine?)
Its loaded with exomorphins
Had no idea that gluten was similar with casein
Besides gluten, wheat has thousands of other proteins
And a lot more fact. Wow

Anyone here quit the wheat?

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Re: Milk and dairy
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2019, 09:48:41 pm »