Quantcast

Author Topic: how was your sleep pre-trt?  (Read 1077 times)

Misery

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2019, 06:36:44 am »
My sleep before TRT was terrible.

T was about 90 when we discovered it was low, e2 was also tanked. No test was done for e2 but bone density scan showed osteoporosis was a problem(bone scan was ordered because I kept having unexplained bone fractures)

Pre TRT I would fall asleep about 11-12 and sleep to about 2am every night for about 8 years and after things slowly improved to where I'm at now, asleep at about 8 to the good old magical time of you guessed it 3am.

I suspect that T is still to low but am afraid to raise it for fear of losing what I have gained. I had tried higher dosing before and it was miserable with e2 becoming radically out of control, thing is I haven't tried a higher dose since I have lost 70lbs of fat. I still have low T symptoms sleep problems persist(but better) mood, concentration, motivation,fatigue. I fear I may be in a "this is as good as it gets" situation.

Flyingfool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2019, 08:58:42 am »
^^^

8pm until 3 AM is 7 hours of sleep. Which isn’t horrible. Have you tried going to bed a bit later in the evening. Going to bed at 10pm and sleeping rhe same 7 hours would be 5am wake up. Still aweful early but not nearly as bad as 3am.

(Last night I was super tired and went to bed abiut 10pm and woke up at 3:37am.  I woke up several more times before my alarm finally going off at 5 am.)

Have you had e2 checked recently?  With 70 lbs of weight loss that can dramatically change the balance with estrogen. So while E2 may have been uncontrollable with hogher dose in the past. With all that fat gone, you may have a much better response today.

But I certainly understand your trepidation.

Probably  time to get full blood test and if the T is lower, than maybe small baby step increase in T dosage you can slowly adjust and monitor E2 levels and get better optimized while still in a controlable  manner.
52 year old, 5’-7” and 165 lbs.
exercise:swim 3x/wk & marrial arts 2x/wk

Blood tested 9/19/18

Total = 580 ng/dL (250-827) 59.9%
Free T= 6.87 (4.6- 22.4) 12.8% (10.8 calc)

SHBG= 39 10.0-50.0) 72.5%

Bio-avail= 14.2 (110-575) 8.0%

DHES =not tested %

Estradiol = 22 (<39)

DHES =231 (38-313) =45.5% tested 2/14/18

Currently on 50mcg Synthroid (T4)
TSH = 0.99
Free T4 = 1.30 (0.80 - 1.80)  =50.0% of range
Free T3 = 3.3 (2.3-4.2) = 52.6% of range
Current protocol: 100mg DIM once per day. Reduction back from 200 mg. For 12 weeks. raised total T, freeT remained basically unchanged due to increases SHBG. Estradiol decrease from 30 to 22. Felt no better and maybe worse than at 100mg DIM so going back starting 9/25/18

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2019, 08:58:42 am »


Misery

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2019, 04:05:05 pm »
Flyingfool, thanks for your thoughts.

If I go to bed later, I still wake at 3am. There are also these strange states of sleep where I'll awaken at say 2am, then I am kinda asleep but not really.

I am going to raise my dose, hopefully e2 wont run rampant.

Kierkegaard

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3606
  • Hormone Shrink
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2019, 08:23:27 pm »
Flyingfool, thanks for your thoughts.

If I go to bed later, I still wake at 3am. There are also these strange states of sleep where I'll awaken at say 2am, then I am kinda asleep but not really.

I am going to raise my dose, hopefully e2 wont run rampant.

What's your injection schedule?

If you do more frequent injections, and also subcutaneous (assuming you're on cypionate/enanthate), you should lower your E2 signficantly.  Otherwise you might consider setting up an appontment with Dr Saya at Defy Medical to get on an aromatase inhibitor. 
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression.aspx

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2019, 08:23:27 pm »


Misery

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2019, 05:39:52 am »
Injection schedule is daily IM.

Sub-Q is another thing I could try now that weight is down. Sucks to try, transitioning from IM to Sub-Q has sent me into a tailspin in the past.


Wish I could afford Defy, just not possible at this time.

Kierkegaard

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3606
  • Hormone Shrink
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2019, 02:48:41 pm »
Injection schedule is daily IM.

Sub-Q is another thing I could try now that weight is down. Sucks to try, transitioning from IM to Sub-Q has sent me into a tailspin in the past.


Wish I could afford Defy, just not possible at this time.

Daily IM?  How much are you injecting?

What about the tailspin when transitioning? 
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression.aspx

Misery

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2019, 05:25:53 pm »
I inject 20mg daily IM.

When I have switched in the past, it seemed as though things took a while to pick back up. e2 would dip along with T and then everything would swing the other way, yo-yo. I never really could tell if there was a difference and didn't like the lumps that sub-q left me with.

I started Sub-q yesterday, Hopefully I will have a different experience this time around.

Cataceous

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5448
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2019, 07:04:30 pm »
...
I started Sub-q yesterday, Hopefully I will have a different experience this time around.

I think I've mentioned before that switching from IM to subQ will result in a temporary dip in hormones if other parameters are unchanged—dose, ester, injection frequency.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

Kierkegaard

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3606
  • Hormone Shrink
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2019, 09:36:39 pm »
...
I started Sub-q yesterday, Hopefully I will have a different experience this time around.

I think I've mentioned before that switching from IM to subQ will result in a temporary dip in hormones if other parameters are unchanged—dose, ester, injection frequency.

I second this, and noticed it in myself when I did the switch from IM to subq.
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression.aspx

Flyingfool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2019, 07:46:52 am »
...
I started Sub-q yesterday, Hopefully I will have a different experience this time around.

I think I've mentioned before that switching from IM to subQ will result in a temporary dip in hormones if other parameters are unchanged—dose, ester, injection frequency.

Why does the dip in levels occur?
52 year old, 5’-7” and 165 lbs.
exercise:swim 3x/wk & marrial arts 2x/wk

Blood tested 9/19/18

Total = 580 ng/dL (250-827) 59.9%
Free T= 6.87 (4.6- 22.4) 12.8% (10.8 calc)

SHBG= 39 10.0-50.0) 72.5%

Bio-avail= 14.2 (110-575) 8.0%

DHES =not tested %

Estradiol = 22 (<39)

DHES =231 (38-313) =45.5% tested 2/14/18

Currently on 50mcg Synthroid (T4)
TSH = 0.99
Free T4 = 1.30 (0.80 - 1.80)  =50.0% of range
Free T3 = 3.3 (2.3-4.2) = 52.6% of range
Current protocol: 100mg DIM once per day. Reduction back from 200 mg. For 12 weeks. raised total T, freeT remained basically unchanged due to increases SHBG. Estradiol decrease from 30 to 22. Felt no better and maybe worse than at 100mg DIM so going back starting 9/25/18

Cataceous

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5448
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2019, 08:11:58 am »
...
I think I've mentioned before that switching from IM to subQ will result in a temporary dip in hormones if other parameters are unchanged—dose, ester, injection frequency.

Why does the dip in levels occur?

Because you're switching to a method that has a longer half life (there's pretty good evidence that subQ has a longer half life than IM). The same thing would happen when switching from T cypionate to T undecanaote. The new method has a slower release rate of testosterone, so it takes time to build back up to match the average release rate you were at previously. The effect works the opposite when reversed: you get a surge in testosterone when switching to a form with a shorter half life/faster release. In either situation, after steady state is reached average hormone levels will be the same as before the change, so long as the amount of testosterone being administered is equal.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

OptimumT

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2019, 10:22:45 am »
The is purely anecdotal, but I've seen a lot of people on Reddit lately say that their e2 rose when switching to SubQ. Have any of you noticed this? I thought that was initially a concern quite a few years ago but turned out not to be true, but I'm reading a lot of people say it really is. Or maybe it's variable according to the individual?

Cataceous

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5448
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2019, 12:52:44 pm »
The is purely anecdotal, but I've seen a lot of people on Reddit lately say that their e2 rose when switching to SubQ. Have any of you noticed this? I thought that was initially a concern quite a few years ago but turned out not to be true, but I'm reading a lot of people say it really is. Or maybe it's variable according to the individual?

I have not seen any reason for this to be the case with respect to average levels. However, if guys are measuring trough hormone levels then estradiol usually will appear higher with subQ than with IM. Peak levels should be lower; subQ is just smoothing things out.

Edit: The Antares study I referenced above did measure estradiol and found no difference in average levels between IM and subQ.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 01:16:26 pm by Cataceous »
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

Kierkegaard

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3606
  • Hormone Shrink
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2019, 08:27:49 pm »
The is purely anecdotal, but I've seen a lot of people on Reddit lately say that their e2 rose when switching to SubQ. Have any of you noticed this? I thought that was initially a concern quite a few years ago but turned out not to be true, but I'm reading a lot of people say it really is. Or maybe it's variable according to the individual?

Which reddit are you following for HRT?

All the research I've done, including women on hCG and more generally animal models comparing subq to IM injections of whatever substance, has indicated what C mentioned: longer half life coinciding with a lower peak and smoother overall curve. 
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression.aspx

Flyingfool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2019, 07:15:49 am »
...
I think I've mentioned before that switching from IM to subQ will result in a temporary dip in hormones if other parameters are unchanged—dose, ester, injection frequency.

Why does the dip in levels occur?

Because you're switching to a method that has a longer half life (there's pretty good evidence that subQ has a longer half life than IM). The same thing would happen when switching from T cypionate to T undecanaote. The new method has a slower release rate of testosterone, so it takes time to build back up to match the average release rate you were at previously. The effect works the opposite when reversed: you get a surge in testosterone when switching to a form with a shorter half life/faster release. In either situation, after steady state is reached average hormone levels will be the same as before the change, so long as the amount of testosterone being administered is equal.

That makes sense for longer half life.

Now my question is why is the half life longer sith subQ?  If using the same carrier oil.  Does it just take longer for blood flow through fat than muscle?

This is all vey interesting.
52 year old, 5’-7” and 165 lbs.
exercise:swim 3x/wk & marrial arts 2x/wk

Blood tested 9/19/18

Total = 580 ng/dL (250-827) 59.9%
Free T= 6.87 (4.6- 22.4) 12.8% (10.8 calc)

SHBG= 39 10.0-50.0) 72.5%

Bio-avail= 14.2 (110-575) 8.0%

DHES =not tested %

Estradiol = 22 (<39)

DHES =231 (38-313) =45.5% tested 2/14/18

Currently on 50mcg Synthroid (T4)
TSH = 0.99
Free T4 = 1.30 (0.80 - 1.80)  =50.0% of range
Free T3 = 3.3 (2.3-4.2) = 52.6% of range
Current protocol: 100mg DIM once per day. Reduction back from 200 mg. For 12 weeks. raised total T, freeT remained basically unchanged due to increases SHBG. Estradiol decrease from 30 to 22. Felt no better and maybe worse than at 100mg DIM so going back starting 9/25/18

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: how was your sleep pre-trt?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2019, 07:15:49 am »