Quantcast

Author Topic: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)  (Read 4489 times)

Kierkegaard

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3623
  • Hormone Shrink
    • View Profile
There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« on: October 11, 2019, 07:57:18 am »
I had been having high E2 symptoms for the last week or more, and about two weeks ago I started taking cough drops for allergies, which suddenly got bad as they often do this time of year in Texas.

Absolutely nothing has changed other than adding adenosylcobalamin (the mitochondrial form of B12, and interestingly since taking this I've noticed a quick loss of 5-6 pounds) and consuming more cough drops.  Well, I look at the ingredients list and what else do I see than "soy lecithin"? 

This is especially troubling seeing how cough drops are lozenges, and as such they bypass liver processing, meaning any ingredients will be more potent given that they hit the bloodstream more easily.

Just a warning for anyone with a cough and sensitive to estradiol.
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

Cataceous

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6776
    • View Profile
Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 07:16:45 pm »
Though soy lecithin is relatively estrogenic, is the quantity consumed large enough that it matters? The worst soy food cited by this research has "1500 ng estradiol equivalents per kilogram", or 1.5 mcg/kg. Typical daily estradiol production for males is probably many 10s of mcg per day. So eat a kilogram of the worst soy product and it's still only a few percent of your natural production, and that assumes efficient absorption.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 07:16:45 pm »


Kierkegaard

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3623
  • Hormone Shrink
    • View Profile
Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2019, 08:45:17 am »
Though soy lecithin is relatively estrogenic, is the quantity consumed large enough that it matters? The worst soy food cited by this research has "1500 ng estradiol equivalents per kilogram", or 1.5 mcg/kg. Typical daily estradiol production for males is probably many 10s of mcg per day. So eat a kilogram of the worst soy product and it's still only a few percent of your natural production, and that assumes efficient absorption.

That's what confuses me too.  I have changed nothing about my diet.  The only possibility I can think to explain my pretty massive increase in estrogenic symptoms is allergies have been worse, and I've found some scanty research pointing to a possible positive feedback loop between histamine and estradiol.  The only other thing is consuming lots of cough drops.

But considering that the cough drops are many, *and* most importantly they're lozenges, meaning they bypass the liver, the bioavailability of any phytoestrogenic effect would be considerably higher.  I'm definitely "brittle" as the endocrinologists put it regarding estradiol: just a little too much puts me over into symptom land. 
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

Cataceous

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6776
    • View Profile
Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2019, 11:52:14 am »
I guess it's possible, though I don't know how probable.  If it weren't so much work you could run a blinded test. Probably not practical to find placebo equivalents for the lozenges.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2019, 11:52:14 am »


HRT Guru

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 741
    • View Profile
Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2019, 06:46:58 pm »
ANy anti-histamine use? I use a amino by the name of L-Histadine...fixes me right up with no antihistamines needed. I used to be double and tripled up on Zyrtec, Flonase, and Pseudoepherdrine but L-Histadine got me off all of it.

ghce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1235
    • View Profile
Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2019, 08:14:07 pm »
ANy anti-histamine use? I use a amino by the name of L-Histadine...fixes me right up with no antihistamines needed. I used to be double and tripled up on Zyrtec, Flonase, and Pseudoepherdrine but L-Histadine got me off all of it.

Whose formulation do you use?
Age:60, Height 6' 3" weight 100KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Oral Andriol 160mg Daily
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 
Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

Kierkegaard

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3623
  • Hormone Shrink
    • View Profile
Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2019, 09:14:46 pm »
ANy anti-histamine use? I use a amino by the name of L-Histadine...fixes me right up with no antihistamines needed. I used to be double and tripled up on Zyrtec, Flonase, and Pseudoepherdrine but L-Histadine got me off all of it.

I try up to 1000-1500 mg histidine with no apparent help in symptoms. But drinking nettle tea helps, and it contains histamine (and acetylcholine) directly. So I'm wondering if my gut biome is lacking on beneficial bacteria that convert histidine to histamine via the histidine decarboxylase enzyme.

Either way l-histidine is awesome for allergies, and has the added benefit of kicking conventional medicine in the face by working through increasing plasma histamine after conversion. I found one study that pointed out that LOW plasma histamine was associated with more severe allergic reactions, meaning blood/plasma levels are to be distinguished from actual mast cell activity, i.e., low plasma histamine apparently is associated with or causes higher release of mast cell mediators, notably histamine.

Really, really fascinating stuff.
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

Kierkegaard

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3623
  • Hormone Shrink
    • View Profile
Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2019, 09:42:04 pm »
Cat, I think I found the reason for my high E2 symptoms. I've been taling pantothenic acid (B5) at supraphysiological doses to see if it would help my possibly wounded adrenals, and it turns out that PA increases adrenal function (esp if you're deficient, as I slightly was), meaning more pregnenolone leasing to more cortisol.

HowEVER, if you're like me and your adrenals are a little "stopped up", causing (in my case) more DHEA and estradiol rather than going down to cortisol and progesterone, this PA ends up being countertherapeutic because it ultimately increases estradiol. Hence my symptoms. So I'll cut out the PA and see how I feel.

If it isn't the PA, i have no *idea* what has been contributing to my high E2 symptoms.
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

Cataceous

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6776
    • View Profile
Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2019, 11:57:16 am »
... So I'll cut out the PA and see how I feel.

If it isn't the PA, i have no *idea* what has been contributing to my high E2 symptoms.

Hopefully that will do it!
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

Kierkegaard

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3623
  • Hormone Shrink
    • View Profile
Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2019, 06:01:55 am »
... So I'll cut out the PA and see how I feel.

If it isn't the PA, i have no *idea* what has been contributing to my high E2 symptoms.

Hopefully that will do it!

Looks like it did!  Since stopping a few days ago my skin is much better, head is clearer, and mood is better -- all reversals of typical high E symptoms.

This is really interesting stuff for me, as it validates in another way the idea that I have an adrenal enzyme downregulation problem, which explains why my DHEA-S has always been at the very top of the range -- and seeing how virtually every guy on TRT sees a drop in DHEA-S because LH and FSH (which also provide conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone and therefore DHEA, cortisol, etc.), my DHEA-S must have been in the 600s or 700s before getting on TRT.

Nothing like using your own body as an experimental playground, eh?
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

Cataceous

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6776
    • View Profile
Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2019, 11:42:36 am »
...
Nothing like using your own body as an experimental playground, eh?

Either that or accept non-optimal results...
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: There is SOY in my cough drops (and probably yours too)
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2019, 11:42:36 am »