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Author Topic: T Cream Concentration  (Read 4539 times)

doin it

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T Cream Concentration
« on: November 22, 2019, 04:58:52 pm »

So, in the past, I have taken topical T (Alc and creams) and it did not work well for me as DHT was too high (850 +) and T was not improved much, also E2 was lower (7).
So went to T Cyp SubQ 2x per week (abdomen) for a year and it worked very good ( all parameters were good).

But, I want to go to a diurnal T routine ( instead of steady-state) but do not want to do daily injects (would not work anyway because of T Cyp 5 to 7 day half life) , so am going back to a cream, 1 mL daily ( 100 mg/ mL) for a dose of 100 mg a day.

First part of my question is, should I do a concentration of 100 mg/ mL and do 1 mL, or, 10 mg/mL (like Androgel) and apply 10 mL to obtain an effective dose?
(Ignoring the messiness and volume)

Before you answer, note that one of the major complaints about Androgel (1 %) is that guys do not llke having to apply so much liquid ( 5 to 10 mL for a 50 to 100 mg dose respectively).

You would think that after so many complaints about Androgel having to apply so much liquid, that they would  increase the concentration to lower the amount of liquid required.

They did increase to 1.62 % but even with  that small concentration increase, a large amount of liquid is still required.

Second part of my question is, do you think that they cannot make Androgel "work"* unless it has a small concentration ( no greater than 1.62) with a large amount of liquid?
(Spread over a large skin surface)

* "Work" means T increases to "normal" with all other parameters staying within "normal" ranges.

Thanks
Doin it

HRT Guru

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2019, 07:42:25 pm »
having used both I much prefer a 1mL cream concentration that what androgel provided. I use now a 50mg/mL cream.

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2019, 07:42:25 pm »


ghce

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2019, 10:55:54 am »
I would go with a compounded cream 100 mg/ml, and definitely not Androgel.

I used a compounded cream for 2 years and was very very happy with the result.
Age:60, Height 6' 3" weight 100KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Oral Andriol 160mg Daily
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 
Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

TheEnigma

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2019, 06:30:11 pm »
I need some help on understanding the cream concentration. I started a compound cream 3 months ago at 7.5mg/gm and I'm now taking 20mg/gm. I'm confused on the units as I see others using 5/10 times that but with a mg/ml units.  Can some please help explain the conversion?  My first lab post T was Total T 285 at 7.5mg/gm dose so he raised it to 20mg/gm.  Before I stated T replacement I was 370 total T.  Honestly I don't feel that well right now (worse than before) but have more labs this week with dr appt to see what is going on.  TIA

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2019, 06:30:11 pm »


ghce

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2019, 11:09:05 pm »
I need some help on understanding the cream concentration. I started a compound cream 3 months ago at 7.5mg/gm and I'm now taking 20mg/gm. I'm confused on the units as I see others using 5/10 times that but with a mg/ml units.  Can some please help explain the conversion?  My first lab post T was Total T 285 at 7.5mg/gm dose so he raised it to 20mg/gm.  Before I stated T replacement I was 370 total T.  Honestly I don't feel that well right now (worse than before) but have more labs this week with dr appt to see what is going on.  TIA

 With T creams or topicals you typically need to use about 100 mg per day as absorption thru the skin is significantly less than via injections, so yes your protocol sounds like it has been prescribed by someone that doesnt know what they are doing.
Age:60, Height 6' 3" weight 100KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Oral Andriol 160mg Daily
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 
Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

doin it

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2019, 01:12:19 am »
Enigma:

FYI
The basis is:
1 gram (gm) of water = 1 mL water
So people usually equate 1 gm =1 mL

You never said how many gm (mL) you are applying per day. You need to share that.

Your lower post-T readings (lower than pre T) are because of the VERY low T cream concentrations, even 20 mg/mL is a low concentration (let alone 7.5) unless you are applying 5 mL per day which would equal 100 mg per day which as ghce says, is an effective dose.

TheEnigma

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2019, 01:52:40 am »
Enigma:

FYI
The basis is:
1 gram (gm) of water = 1 mL water
So people usually equate 1 gm =1 mL

You never said how many gm (mL) you are applying per day. You need to share that.

Your lower post-T readings (lower than pre T) are because of the VERY low T cream concentrations, even 20 mg/mL is a low concentration (let alone 7.5) unless you are applying 5 mL per day which would equal 100 mg per day which as ghce says, is an effective dose.

Thank you both for the reply.  I am applying 20mg/g (ml) per day via 4 total clicks, so only 1/5 of the 100mg dose you guys are recommending.  I would have to apply 20 clicks and basically take bath in cream to get 100mg.  Now I know why I feel so bad...My doctor only does hormone replacement for his practice so I can't believe he is this unaware of how to dose a topical T.  I guess I need to find a new doc soon.

ghce

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2019, 03:21:08 am »
Enigma:

FYI
The basis is:
1 gram (gm) of water = 1 mL water
So people usually equate 1 gm =1 mL



Yes for a ballpark figure though it depends on the specific gravity of the cream which will relate to the density or weight but its a fair guess 1 gm is approx 1 ml.

Part of the problem with under prescribing T dosage is that once your natural (though low) T production is shut down by the T cream or T injection the only T you will get is the medication and if thats low as it is in your case your total T will be far less than your all ready inadequate natural production.
Age:60, Height 6' 3" weight 100KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Oral Andriol 160mg Daily
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 
Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

doin it

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2019, 03:50:31 am »

Enigma, are you in the USA ?

TheEnigma

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2019, 03:21:59 pm »

Enigma, are you in the USA ?

Yes, San Francisco Bay Area.  If anyone can recommend a good doc in the area I would appreciate it.

I'm going to increase my dose to 60mg today (split 30mg morning, 30mg evening).  Hopefully this will get me to stabilize for now and I can talk with my doc next week (he's going to get an earful).

Thanks again for your help...

doin it

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2019, 09:33:18 pm »

Enigma,
I would only comment that part of the benefit of creams/gels applied in ONE dose in the morning  (around 8 am), is that it more closely mimics the normal  diurnal rythym of the body.

doin it

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2019, 09:51:36 pm »
No responses to my question above, so let me restate my question.  Re Androgel,
The manufacturer states that DHT paralleled T in clinical trials.
This has NOT been my experience with Androgel, nor other alc gels or creams, DHT is always way higher than "normal".
So, since they have not increased T concentration very much (1.62 % max) , is it plausible that they do not increase the concentration - even though guys do not like the large volume of gel they have to apply - because in order to make DHT parallel T, they have to use a low T concentration and a large volume of liquid spread over a lot of skin???

I'm not using Androgel now, am using compounded T but it also causes very high DHT levels.  So I am thinking that if the above is true for Androgel, maybe it will be true for other T preparations.

Note that the first part of my question above was not meant to be literal, I was drawing the extremes to make my point:
i.e.
Use less of a T concentration and more liquid over a larger skin surface area ( in order to keep DHT in the "normal" range).

Thanks
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 09:53:15 pm by doin it »

Cataceous

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2019, 01:10:16 am »
...
Use less of a T concentration and more liquid over a larger skin surface area ( in order to keep DHT in the "normal" range).
...

I don't know, but I'd think the opposite: a higher concentration over a smaller area would locally saturate the 5α-reductase and aromatase and allow more testosterone through to enter circulation.

With Androgel I did have relatively high DHT and inconsistent T levels.

The protocol is a nuisance, but I think the most consistent way to emulate normal diurnal variation of testosterone is with daily injections of testosterone propionate along with a longer ester such as cypionate.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

doin it

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2019, 03:00:42 am »

Cat, thanks for your response and comments.

I did, a few years ago, try 120 mg/mL (alc gel) and a very small application area (inner wrists and top of thighs) with the same result: high DHT.

I thought about daily injections and (as you suggest) Prop had the shortest half-life I found ( 1 to 3 days as I recall, depending on who you ask). Except for straight T suspension which as I understand is painful. 

So, I am back to creams ( for the diurnal effect).

  I was thinking about Androgel and it occurred to me about the relatively low T concentration and high skin surface coverage and wondered if that is how they controlled DHT.

I  have never tried lower T concentrations with high skin coverage which prompted my post to the forum.

I would appreciate any opinions...

ghce

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Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2019, 04:26:56 am »

Cat, thanks for your response and comments.

I did, a few years ago, try 120 mg/mL (alc gel) and a very small application area (inner wrists and top of thighs) with the same result: high DHT.

I thought about daily injections and (as you suggest) Prop had the shortest half-life I found ( 1 to 3 days as I recall, depending on who you ask). Except for straight T suspension which as I understand is painful. 

So, I am back to creams ( for the diurnal effect).

  I was thinking about Androgel and it occurred to me about the relatively low T concentration and high skin surface coverage and wondered if that is how they controlled DHT.

I  have never tried lower T concentrations with high skin coverage which prompted my post to the forum.

I would appreciate any opinions...


I know I am probably flying in the face of convention medical practice ( I mean GP's and Endo's) when I say whats the big scary thing about high DHT?

I know the standard answers to that rhetorical question but the thing is I just dont beleive it, DHT even highly elevated is not a demon to be avoided, the fact that it very quickly goes above range quite quickly on topical applications seems to have few if any clinically proven down sides whereas having high DHT really makes you feel very very good. Not that I advocate setting out to go supra-physiological but if you are just a little over range I see no issue with that.
Age:60, Height 6' 3" weight 100KG
2014 Androderm Patches
2014-2016 Oral Andriol 160mg Daily
June 2016 Clomid/Serophene 12.5mg EOD
September 2016 no TRT all natural and supplements for the time being
February 2017 Testosterone cream 100mg daily

Sept 2016
Testosterone   8.2 nmol/l   9-38
Free Testosterone   239 pmol/l   L   250-800
SHBG:  14    nmol/L   9-60
Free Androgen index   586   >400
Oestradiol    112   pmol/L    <190
LH    2.6 IU/L Adult male   2 - 9 IU/L
FSH  1.4 IU/L Adult male L2 - 12 IU/L

22 November
T 6.8  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) L

March 2017
Testosterone:   45.0  nmol/L ( 9-38 ) H ( 1,323 ng/dl )
Free Testosterone:   1512  pmol/L ( 250-800 ) H
SHBG:   17  nmol/L ( 9-60 )
Plasma IGF-1:   227 ug/L ( 55-198 ) H
Plasma cortisol:   434 nmol/L ( 0600-1000 hrs 170-500 nmol/L )
HbA1c:   36 mmol/mol ( 20-40 )
LH:   <0.1 IU/L
FSH:   0.1 IU/L
DHT Plasma Dihydrotestosterone:   7455   pmol/L ( 223 ng/dl ) 
Reference Range Adult males  1000-6000 pmol/L

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: T Cream Concentration
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2019, 04:26:56 am »