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Author Topic: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)  (Read 4545 times)

Tn198989

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Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« on: July 22, 2020, 12:14:32 pm »
Hello everyone,
First post here

I have done 2 cycles of only T (last one was on 2018) for 10 weeks each. I've done the standar pct with clomid and nolva but never recovered from the second cycle and i still suffer from ed and low libido. I've done multiple bloodworks, my T hovers around 700 - 900 which is optimal. Everything else has fluctuated over the last 2 years. I've tried lowering e2, let them go higher, tried lowering shbg from 45 to 30 (proviron) with little to no effect on libido or ed. Anyway last week i went to a doctor who specializes in these kinds of problems and he suggested ovitrelle (hcg) for 3 months and then slowly tapering off of it hoping that this would somehow fix me.
The problem is that that the dose he told me to take is 3250 iu twice a week which sounds ridiculously high. I told him that i dont want to desensitize my leygid cells but he insited that i take that dose for at least 15 days and then get bloodwork. I've already taken the first dose. He also said that with that dose his patients total t is around 600 and that hcg shutdown is different from Testosterone shutdown and that i will bounce back very fast. Is he wrong or is there something i am missing? Also its the third day since the first dose and no effect on ed and libido still but it might be too soon to tell.

Thanks in advance

Cataceous

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2020, 02:32:15 pm »
I'd like to know what the theory is behind this treatment. I don't see why it should be that helpful if you're already producing normal amounts of testosterone. HCG in these amounts almost surely will be suppressive of your other natural hormones, including kisspeptin, GnRH, LH and FSH. It's also likely to create excess estradiol. The main difference between a shutdown caused by hCG and one caused by exogenous testosterone is that the hCG stimulates production of endogenous testosterone. Therefore it's less likely to cause testicular atrophy.

If it were me I would try a trial with a SERM. Then there's no hormonal suppression.

Have you done additional lab testing, including DHT, progesterone, thyroid hormones, DHEA, etc.?

It occurs to me that another difference with hCG use versus testosterone is that at least in young men it can raise progesterone. It would be useful to know levels before and during treatment.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2020, 02:32:15 pm »


Tn198989

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2020, 03:47:20 pm »
I've done like 3-4 pct's with either nolva or clomid during these 2 years and little to no effect on erectile function or ejaculation.

I wish i knew what his theory is myself. I've researced for almost a year and a half what could cause my symptoms with high T but i could'nt figure it out..2 endo's suggested that my receptors might be desensitized from the cycle which sounds unlikely after 2 years although the symptoms agree. Except from the low libido and ed (ed is the biggest issue i am trying to fix) i also have very watery ejaculation ever since my first cycle in 2017 but my fsh is around 6-7 which is optimal. I think his theory is that my body needs to remember what its like to get 100% erect (like if you dont use it you lose it theory) and then slowly taper off or add a serm for just a week at the end. No additional testing available where i live just the usual Total T, E2, Thyroid Hormones, shbg, Prolactin. About the shutdown he thinks that the lh bounces back way faster after hcg than Testosterone. My main concern isn't the hpta ( right now my bloodwork says its optimal and i still have ed) but the leygid cells desensitization caused by such a high dose of hcg. The shutdown is inevitable anyway even with a low dose because i will be taking hcg for 3 months. The only thing that ever helped with libido (but not so much with erection strength) was proviron. I've tried everything i can to fix all hormones to ptimal levels except for HCG cause i though its counter productive after or during pct.

Here is my latest bloodwork

Total T 932   Ref. Range  300-800
E2  43       Ref. Range 27-60
Prolactin 4.5   Ref. Range 4-18
SHBG  36.8    Ref Range  15-55
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 03:56:34 pm by Tn198989 »

Cataceous

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2020, 04:39:23 pm »
Personally, with those numbers I wouldn't bother with hCG. Maybe take a look at neurotransmitters. Experiment with some of the ingredients in JustAskin's stack.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2020, 04:39:23 pm »


Tn198989

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2020, 06:24:47 pm »
I'll try the supplements about the neurotransmitters but  I'll go with the doc cause he was confident that with hcg he can bring me back 100% and apart from the dose which seems a little off he seemed to know what he was doing and he says he has seen it in the past (high T after cycle but ed and fertility issues). I'll just ask him to lower the dose. Maybe my receptors are damaged and need higher levels of T. I am kind of desperate and tired about the whole thing cause its been a long time and i've spent many hours reading online, seeing different doctors (endo's, urologists etc) trying to fix the issue. Thanks for your help. I'll post again if there's any progress just in case someone is in the same spot

Tn198989

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2020, 07:51:52 pm »
Do you know how long it takes to feel the effects of hcg  (if I feel anything) approximately? Cause today I took the second dose, it's the fourth day since I started and still nothing. Should I give it another week?

Cataceous

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2020, 10:53:26 pm »
It's possible you'd have some positive effect in the first couple weeks if you get some extra testosterone production. Increasing levels frequently give a temporary boost. But later you might have some issues: estradiol could become excessive, and overly high doses of hCG actually cause less testosterone production than more reasonable amounts. Ref.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

Baldur2630

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2020, 08:34:33 am »
Once again as always, doctors only measure TOTAL testosterone. Insist on FREE testosterone, you may well be in for a shock unless your so-called doctor refuses to have it tested (as mine did). It took me two changes of Doctor to actually get it done (and it was ZERO)
79 year old. Weight Lifter. On TRT and HGH. Don't believe in doctors. Don't get sick, don't die.

Growing old gracefully is not an option!

Tn198989

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2020, 05:30:37 pm »
I will ask for free testosterone test ASAP.. Although I have done one like 3 months ago and it was 17pg/ml ref range 13-35
Anyway I am at the end of the third week of hcg and aromasin but still weak erections.
I did bloodwork at two week and here are the results
Total T 717
E2 45 ref range 11-44
Prolactin 8.8
Shbg 30
Lh 2.7
Fsh 1.7
So my total t is actually lower than before, e2 slightly higher, lh, fsh at the bottom due to hcg.
Weird thing is that my ejaculation volume has increased. Don't know how that's possible with lower total t than before.. My shbg dropped cause I was taking proviron before I started hcg to lower it from 45. Also I get a little discomfort on testicles for the last week.doc said it's a good thing and that they are coming back but what do you think.. And lastly I have been taking 6500iu per week of hcg for the last 3 weeks.. How come my total t is only 717 (even lower than before) and how come there is an improvement in ejaculation. He actually said that the guys he is treating with hcg hover around 600-700 total t with that dose. Should'nt it be much higher? With Nolva 10mg ed my total t would go to 900 but no effects on ejaculation volume or libido. Are my androgen receptors desensitized and can hcg help with that. Like wake them up. The only thing I can think of is that my intratesticular testosterone wasn't high while serum t was..and hcg increased that..dont know if that's even possible, just a thought. Thanks for all the help and sorry for the long post.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 07:22:14 pm by Tn198989 »

Cataceous

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2020, 02:03:34 pm »
Though speculative, I'll agree that ejaculation volume is likely up due to increases in intratesticular testosterone from the high hCG, aided by the fact that LH and FSH are not fully suppressed yet. I'm not surprised that serum testosterone is lower. As I mentioned above, that's what's expected when the amount of hCG used is excessive. I remain skeptical of this treatment.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

Tn198989

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2020, 06:36:29 pm »
I am too. It does seem excessive. But no other treatment has helped me so far. The only thing I am trying to fix is the erectile dysfunction.. I don't care about fertility. But it's three weeks and 20.000 ius later and still nothing in that department. Should I slowly taper off and start a serm to restore lh/fsh? I thought that the testicular pain might be from the testicles waking up or something.. What do you think? Or could it be just from the high dose? I mean if there is a difference in serum and testicular testosterone  and it's not detectable in the blood test then I think that that is my problem cause every blood work shows normal/high total t but my symptoms are Ed and watery clear ejaculation. If it was androgen insensitivity from the cycle I thought I would have other symptoms like loss of muscle mass etc..

Cataceous

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2020, 01:48:46 am »
I get that testicular ache going in either direction. I had it when I first started TRT without hCG. Then again when I added hCG. And yet again when I stopped hCG after introducing GnRH. This last time I think testicular volume was increasing due to restoration of FSH. Honestly I'm not even sure which direction you're going; LH and FSH are probably going down, but hCG is acting like an enormous amount of LH.

Obviously I can't tell you what to do, but I think in this situation I would stop the hCG cold turkey because there's still gonadotropin activity (LH/FSH). This should mean a shorter recovery time.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

Tn198989

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2020, 06:11:22 am »
The problem is recovery to what?.. The place i was before? With normal Lh Fsh Total T.. and low libido, ed, and watery semen. Maybe I could add a low dose serm to keep htpa from shutting down. The only reason i keep taking the hcg is that it could somehow wake up the testicles to respond to my otherwise normal testosterone.and as you say the pain only came when your testes went to sleep or wake up.If your testes worked normally you wouldn't feel that, right? With all that HCG i doubt they are going to sleep. The LH/FSH is useless while on HCG thats why it shutsdown so the low levels dont mean anything in matters of testicular function or ejaculation volume.  But something isn't working right and i think its the testicles. I am trying to shock the system..What else is there to do? If that doesnt work i might go on TRT..which is the last thing i want
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 06:57:33 am by Tn198989 »

Cataceous

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2020, 10:07:34 am »
It's a recovery to known good levels of the sex hormones. It means an acknowledgement that these are probably not directly related to your symptoms. What you're doing is analogous to having a car that's not running right and replacing parts that have already tested ok with lower quality parts. I'm not saying I wouldn't do something similar, because it's natural to want to do something.

At least fill in some of the missing tests. Surely you can get progesterone and DHEA-S?

You might talk with a doctor about lowering prolactin as an experiment. Some men say they need to have it below 5 ng/mL for normal libido. This could involve taking very small doses of cabergoline. I'd start with only 50 micrograms twice a week, wait a few weeks to stabilize and then get new lab work. Titrate the dose as needed. See if it makes any difference.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

Tn198989

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2020, 10:38:28 am »
 You are right.. It is a desperate move.. The prolactin isn't the issue I 've been there.. It was 18 and took caber and dropped it to 3. Can I get away with 1000iu 3 times a week for another couple of months along with 10mg Nolva ed and aromasin 25mg eod without desensitization just in case the doc is right. I have blood work from before ever touching steroids total test was lower at 500 e2 at 42 and I was ok.. No libido issues or ed.. That's why I think blood work could be misleading. I will definitely ask for the blood work you suggested along with free t. But I thought that dhea and all that stuff were precursors of testosterone so if you have good total t then you are ok.

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Re: Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2020, 10:38:28 am »