Doc prescribed very high dose of HCG (ovitrelle)

[Cataceous]

I meant that the SERM/mesterolone combination might help you function better while you return to baseline—with good numbers but poor results. If after this you recover libido and consistent erections then I would wonder how much the medications contributed, or if it was just that enough time had elapsed for some kind of natural recovery. I don't know what sort of odds there are for a spontaneous recovery to your properly functioning normal. If you exhaust all the more traditional treatments, including neurotransmitter enhancers, without seeing improvements then you might look into a trial of kisspeptin-10 and/or GnRH.

[Tn198989]

Well I can only hope. I thought though that by adding mesterolone it would be a step back for recovery cause it might suppress me. What I am trying to do is boost free t as much as possible while decreasing shbg. Two months of proviron lowered my shbg from 45 to 30. I wanna take down to while boosting testosterone with the nolva. I'll update with any improvement hopefully. It might help someone with the same or similar issues. Lastly is there such thing as androgen receptor insensitivity from steroids? Like what happens with the leydig cells from high dose hcg.. Or is it just bro science?

[Cataceous]

Considering that there's virtually no evidence for long-term Leydig cell desensitization caused by excessive hCG use, the similar concept of androgen receptor insensitivity acquired by steroid abuse may be a myth as well. There are probably other things going on that are yet to be fully explained.

[Tn198989]

 So I've been taking clomid 50mg and Nolva 20mg for 3 days. On the second day I added proviron 50mg and today I had a big improvement in libido and some improvement in Ed. So do you know how proviron works and what it affects? Cause maybe we can figure out the root cause of the problem.. I know it's a weak steroid.. But could it do in a day what no amount of hcg could in a month? And if I keep taking it at a low dose (25-50mg) will  I postpone even further the natural recovery or help it??

[Cataceous]

Hard to say what the mesterolone will do over time. I think it will be a little suppressive at the hypothalamus, but it should not affect the pituitary. So it might slow the return to baseline a little.

I wouldn't read too much into the improvements seen with a single dose. It's quite common to see positive effects from sudden changes in androgen levels. I can get those effects simply by adding some testosterone cream to my protocol. The problem is that the effects fade over time, whether or not the protocol addition is continued.

[Tn198989]

 So I guess trt isn't gonna be of any help long term either if my total t is already high.. Only time then.. Thanks

[Tn198989]

I just got blood work and wanted to update. I only did free testosterone and e2 cause I ll get the full panel after I stop the Nolva proviron to see where I am at.
E2 43 ref range 11 - 44 pg/ml
Free testosterone 11.60 ng/dl ref range 5.8 - 18 ng/dl
Two questions.. First I think I crushed my e2 three weeks ago cause suddenly my knees and bones in general started to ache and I had some palpitations for a couple of hours after taking arimidex. Right now e2 is ok but knees still hurt ever since.. Shouldn't that have stopped by now since e2 bounced back?

Second my free t seems kinda low and everytime I get blood work for it is on the low side while total is almost always on the higher side and my shbg can't be that high cause I am on proviron.
Could that be the source of all my issues? Also while on proviron at 50mg or higher I get morning wood back.. Maybe the calculated free t doesn't show the whole picture cause I've had blood work with high total t and mid range shbg but still symptoms of low t.

Thanks in advance

[Cataceous]

If your free T result is calculated then it means that albumin, total T and SHBG were measured. It would be nice to have these numbers. The calculation they use is probably an older one based on Vermeulen's method. The new Tru-T method is preferred. Nonetheless, for the older free T calculation I view 10 ng/dL as the cutoff below which hypogonadism is plausible.

The gold standard test for measuring free testosterone is equilibrium dialysis. If you have access to this type of test then it can give you the best estimate of free testosterone, though it may be more expensive.

[Tn198989]

The latest result (11.60ng/dl) isn't calculated. I will do another bloodwork six weeks from now to see where I am at without any serm on my system and I will include all the usual t, lh, fsh, shbg, prolactin along with free t. I just wanted your opinion on the current blood work  cause right now I am 3 weeks on 20 mg of Nolva along with 50 mg proviron. Should I keep the dose for 2 more weeks? Drop the dose of Nolva? Target is to raise free t while either lowering or keep from elevating e2

[Cataceous]

Unless something fundamental has changed, when you stop the medications you will likely in time return to baseline hormone levels. I'm not sure the timing is that important. The baseline levels seemed ok, and probably are not the cause of your symptoms.

Something you might try is just occasional use of the Proviron, like once every week or two. At least a few guys have found that an intermittent boost of androgens provides benefits for several days.

[Greatly]

If it were me I would try a trial with a SERM. Then there's no hormonal suppression.

[Tn198989]

Do you know how does proviron work? Does it increase testosterone or does it raise free t by blocking shbg? And does it raise dht? How does it increase libido? I am on it for 3 weeks and almost recovered in the libido department but I ran out 3 days ago and I can feel since yesterday that it wears off and libido drops. I don't think it's from the sudden change in androgen cause I've been taking it for 3 weeks. Not even high doses of hcg had any effect on libido.. But with proviron boom rock hard and horny all day.

[Cataceous]

Proviron/mesterolone is an analog of DHT, meaning it acts similarly in the body. Like exogenous androgens in general it can over time reduce SHBG production, which may increase free testosterone. More immediately, in binding to SHBG mesterolone can displace some testosterone, which also increases free testosterone.

Admittedly three weeks is longer than the periods in which I've experienced transition "bonuses". Nonetheless, things can still be changing out to at least two or three months. So if you want to be more sure then a longer trial is needed.

[Tn198989]

If it were me I would try a trial with a SERM. Then there's no hormonal suppression.

I've tried several attemps with serms (mostly nolva). I am actually taking 20mg nolva ed to recover my lh from the hcg along with proviron (but i know its the proviron that does the trick for libido).

[Tn198989]

Proviron/mesterolone is an analog of DHT, meaning it acts similarly in the body. Like exogenous androgens in general it can over time reduce SHBG production, which may increase free testosterone. More immediately, in binding to SHBG mesterolone can displace some testosterone, which also increases free testosterone.

Admittedly three weeks is longer than the periods in which I've experienced transition "bonuses". Nonetheless, things can still be changing out to at least two or three months. So if you want to be more sure then a longer trial is needed.

If its an analog then it won't affect the dht or total Testosterone bloodwork hopefully. I don't mind taking it long term although i've heard that it can mess lipids. Its just that i am trying for recovery here and maybe with proviron i can pintpoint what is the issue. Maybe its low free t (even with good shbg and total t) or dht. I just hope that 50mg wont cause any suppresion because with it i can at least function normally without obssesing over what is wrong and trying different serm dosages every week. Its weird though that 50mg of proviron does what no amount of hcg or serms can.