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Author Topic: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop  (Read 3363 times)

doin it

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Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« on: November 01, 2020, 06:29:13 pm »

Cat,

I am going to change from T Cyp 2x/week to T prop. every day.

Please check me on the following.

 I am doing 44 mg TC per week which is 70 % T
(100 mg = 70 mg actual T)

0.11 ml x 2 per week = 0.22 ml = 44 mg per week
44 x .7 = 30.8 mg actual T per week
At 200 mg/ ml

This would be 4.4 mg actual T per day if I were injecting daily
(30.8 / 7 = 4.4)

---

So, to get the equiv. with TP,

TP is actually 80 % T

Empower is 100 mg /mL

10 mg = 0.1 mL or 0.1 cc
1 mg = 0.01 mL or 0.01 cc
So
11 mg = 0.11 mL or 0.11 cc
So
31 mg = 0.31 mL or 0.31 cc
And
38.5 mg = 0.385 mL or 0.385 cc

But 31 mg is actually 24.8 mg T
And
38.5 mg = 30.8 actual T
So
38.5 mg = 0.385 mL or 0.385 cc

Proof
100 mg/mL x .8 = 80 mg actual T
= 80 actual mg T per mL

30.8 mg/ 80 mg = 0.385 mL or 0.385 cc per week

0.385 / 7 days a week = 0.055 mL (cc) per day

---

So
In a 3/10 syringe where
3/10cc (0.3 ml) or 30 units

0.01 mL equals 1/100 cc (0.01 cc) , 1 unit

0.055 mL (cc) = 0.055 cc or 5.5 units per day

1) Is all this correct ?

2) After stopping T Cyp, how many days should I wait to start TP ? (40 days (5 half lives ?))

3) After starting TP, how many days should I wait for the first T, etc. tests ?

4) How many hours should I wait to test after injecting ?

Thanks in advance.

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2020, 08:39:18 pm »
1) Your math seems right, though I would use 83.7% for the testosterone content of T propionate, which yields a hair less, about 5.26 mg or units TP.

2) The remaining cypionate in your body is going down by half every five days or so. If you want a smoother transition then you could start taking 1/2 the propionate dose five days after the last cypionate, increasing to 3/4 after 10 days, and the whole dose after 15 days or so.

3) I'd give it at least four weeks, and preferably six weeks before testing.

4) If you respond as I do then two to three hours after an injection may be the time to test peak serum testosterone. If you're looking for a trough then just before the normal injection time.

Have you ever previously injected more often than twice a week? I find it interesting to try to determine what amount of injected testosterone leads to what serum levels. This gets tricky when levels aren't constant.

I found that daily propionate was giving me more daily variation than is natural, so I "cut" it with enanthate to temper the swings in serum levels.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2020, 08:39:18 pm »


doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2020, 09:44:05 pm »

Yes, I recall your reports on your TP/TE protocol and effects
Like you, I use 6 and 8 mm needles in 31 g.

I started with 1x/week and went to 2x.  This will be the first time for more frequent injects.

Not particularly looking forward to daily Injects but should not be a big deal with only 5 or 6 units and 31 g.

I'm thinking of waiting 4 half lives (~6%) TC before start TP, depending on how I feel.

On test day, I will probably inject at 0600, test at 0900 (for peak), and again at 1700 for metabolism rate.
I will report readings (TT, Tfree, E1, E2, LH. FSH, SHBG, prolactin, DHT, etc.) all done twice that day.

Am thinking of adding some upstream enzymes, any suggestions ?

As you know, I am trying to maintain LH and FSH in "normal" ranges, while cognitive of how I feel.  Am willing to give up some of the higher dose benefits to keep LH and FSH normal (as I do now).

I intend to repeat the testing protocol, maybe 4 weeks after first round to check consistency.
All depending on how I feel considering test results.

Thanks again, Cat.

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2020, 01:40:26 pm »
It will be interesting to see how your results with propionate compare to mine.

I had to refamiliarize myself with your situation: your primary hypogonadism and your ability to maintain LH and FSH through TRT dose tuning. Were your testosterone measurements taken at troughs? In February you said it was 478 ng/dL.

For the fun of it we can make predictions based on some assumptions. On twice-weekly injections, trough serum testosterone around 500 ng/dL puts the peak in the 700s. Let's say that puts the average in the low 600s. Barring significant changes in SHBG and albumin, average serum testosterone should be the same with propionate. My experience with propionate says that daily variations of +/-40-50% about the mean are possible. This would put your peak testosterone at around 900 ng/dL, and the trough in the 300s. This range is a little beyond what's seen with normal physiology, which is why I need to blend in a longer ester.

...
Am thinking of adding some upstream enzymes, any suggestions ?
...

Are you referring to upstream hormones such GnRH and kisspeptin? You should already have reasonable levels of these if you're maintaining some LH and FSH.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2020, 01:40:26 pm »


doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2020, 10:42:37 pm »

The last 3 tests for TT were 565, 478, and 512.  All were " midway" between injects.  Meaning neither peak nor trough.
All maintained LH and FSH in the "normal" range

I was interested in midway as I think I can extrapolate the low and high based on the midpoint. I agree with you, I do not think it varies more than 100 either way in a sawtooth pattern.

I was thinking about 17b HSD but on further reading, only genetic tests are available for it and if one has a genetic defect, it is obvious (not me) .
Anyway, I was thinking upstream testes local.

With the new regimen, I am hoping for something like 600 three hours after inject (0900) and maybe 450 at 1700.  We will see.

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2020, 12:42:02 am »
The last 3 tests for TT were 565, 478, and 512.  All were " midway" between injects.  Meaning neither peak nor trough.
All maintained LH and FSH in the "normal" range

I was interested in midway as I think I can extrapolate the low and high based on the midpoint. I agree with you, I do not think it varies more than 100 either way in a sawtooth pattern.
...
With the new regimen, I am hoping for something like 600 three hours after inject (0900) and maybe 450 at 1700.  We will see.

Got it. Assuming about 500 ng/dL for average testosterone means the propionate prediction has peaks in the 700s and troughs in the 200s.

...
I was thinking about 17b HSD but on further reading, only genetic tests are available for it and if one has a genetic defect, it is obvious (not me) .
Anyway, I was thinking upstream testes local.
...

Interesting. Is it possible to "add these enzymes"? Do you have elevated androstenedione that could suggest low 17b HSD?
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2020, 02:37:36 am »


"Got it. Assuming about 500 ng/dL for average testosterone means the propionate prediction has peaks in the 700s and troughs in the 200s."

I am hoping I do not experience those kinds of swings, that would almost induce a manic/depressive state !  If that happens, I will know it.

"Interesting. Is it possible to "add these enzymes"? Do you have elevated androstenedione that could suggest low 17b HSD?"

Not sure which enzymes you are thinking of?

No, androstenedione was normal last July: 0.418 (0.230 - 0.890).  Just wanted to get readings of various key parameters for future reference if things ever go sideways.





Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2020, 01:02:08 pm »
"Interesting. Is it possible to "add these enzymes"? Do you have elevated androstenedione that could suggest low 17b HSD?"

Not sure which enzymes you are thinking of?

No, androstenedione was normal last July: 0.418 (0.230 - 0.890).  Just wanted to get readings of various key parameters for future reference if things ever go sideways.

I was just responding to your statement "Am thinking of adding some upstream enzymes, any suggestions ?" and was wondering if it's even possible to directly augment something like 17b HSD. But normal androstenedione somewhat counters the idea that this enzyme is low, at least according to Wikipedia.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2020, 07:48:14 pm »

Wasn't thinking of augmenting enzymes (at this time anyway), would like to gather a few key readings of various parameters (in addition to the usual suspects) in case of any future malfunctions.  If that happens, could order a list of lab tests and pin the issue down to, hopefully, a weak link in the chain.  And then go try to figure out how to fix it.

Like you say, these testes-local enzymes would probably be difficult to augment, but don't really know, have never read on that.

But it was worthwhile reading about 17b HSD, if endogenous T ever drops and LH is still "normal" or about the same as past, the genetic test for it is a candidate as genes can change with time

This may also be a genetic test other guys could take if T is is inexplicably low (normal LH. etc.).

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2020, 01:32:50 am »
...
But it was worthwhile reading about 17b HSD, if endogenous T ever drops and LH is still "normal" or about the same as past, the genetic test for it is a candidate as genes can change with time

This may also be a genetic test other guys could take if T is is inexplicably low (normal LH. etc.).

In a form of primary hypogonadism like this wouldn't LH be high?
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2020, 11:37:06 pm »

I guess I was thinking, in a Primary hypo situation, If LH is in the normal range and is pretty much what it has been for the last year or so and T suddenly drops, then it would appear that something has gone wrong in the testes, and enzymes may be at fault

But this window (of normal LH) would be short-lived as the low T would drive the HP to increase LH (as you note), assuming HP is still working.

Interesting though, cause if an enzyme is at fault, the increased LH would not increase T.


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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2020, 02:01:47 am »
...
Interesting though, cause if an enzyme is at fault, the increased LH would not increase T.

Yes, typically the high LH is suggestive of primary hypogonadism, and then it can be confirmed with an hCG stimulation test. If you don't make more testosterone with the hCG then primary is pretty much confirmed.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2020, 10:36:54 pm »
cat
I have seen a few scattered web posts saying T Prop is more irritating than T Cyp at injection site.  I think they were talking IM injects.  I think you said you were doing SQ injections, did you notice any difference between T Prop and T Cyp SQ .
Thanks

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2020, 12:28:32 am »
With the Empower brand of propionate my injection site reactions are minimal, and certainly no worse than with enanthate or cypionate. If I'm remembering right, I may have had a little more trouble earlier with a different brand.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 12:06:45 pm by Cataceous »
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2020, 12:35:26 am »

Thanks Cat. Empower is the company I intend to use.

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2020, 12:35:26 am »