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Author Topic: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop  (Read 4675 times)

doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2021, 10:30:06 pm »
Cat,

Prelim am and pm test results are starting to come in.  It appears that tbe pm TT, bio-avail and T Free actually went UP from the am readings, have you seen this before ?

Also, pm E2 went down from am reading, I would have thought it would naturally increase from morning values.  And I would tbink the pm reading would go up as TT, T Free and Bioavail T went up.

 These readings seem odd.

Thanks
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 10:45:29 pm by doin it »

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2021, 02:42:33 pm »
It does seem unexpected that PM values would be higher. But I have never tested then—I've only looked at troughs and presumed peaks. The presumed peak values were in line with predictions, so I assumed I had the timing right. I can't rule out that a different model should be used for the pharmacokinetics. I've assumed a quick post-injection rise to peak, followed by a steady fall. But your result could be used to argue for a pretty long post-injection plateau followed by a faster decline overnight. Or alternatively a much slower rise in your case before the fall. We'll need more data to resolve this.

Do you happen to know the other ingredients in your propionate formulation? At least in the case of the longer esters it appears that the presence or absence of benzyl alcohol can have a large effect on apparent half-lives.

Estradiol would tend to lag what's happening with testosterone, maybe by an hour or two. I'm not sure if this explains your result.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2021, 02:42:33 pm »


doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2021, 05:28:33 pm »

Empower
Besides TP:
Benzyl Benzoate 15 %
Benzyl Alcohol 1 %
In Grapeseed oil

When you say "Benzyl Alcohol can have a large effect", does it slow absorption or accelerate it ?

When you say E2 lags T, would you expect it to increase with increasing TT ?

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2021, 09:23:00 pm »
I'm using Empower's propionate too, so there shouldn't be anything unusual there. What's interesting is that apparently benzyl alcohol can significantly accelerate absorption. This is possibly illustrated in dramatic fashion with the XYOSTED product, which is testosterone enanthate without the BA. The clinical trials showed a half-life close to 10 days, about double what's seen with the typical enanthate or cypionate formulations

Estradiol does increase with increasing testosterone, but a lag means that peaks and troughs appear delayed in time compared to what's happening with testosterone.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2021, 09:23:00 pm »


doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2021, 12:22:55 am »

Meant to mention that LH decreased from morning to late afternoon, reinforcing that TT went up.

I understand "lag", I guess I was wondering if you thought E2 would increase or decrease lagging an increase in TT.  I probably did not phrase my quedtion very well.

Also note that SHBG was exactly the same for both tests.

I will copy you on all the results when I get them.

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2021, 01:36:38 am »
LH bounces up and down all day, so I'm not sure we can read too much into that reduction.

I may still not be understanding the question about estradiol and how it lags testosterone. When testosterone falls to its trough value and starts rising, estradiol continues falling for a period, then also starts rising. When testosterone reaches its peak and starts falling, estradiol continues rising for a period, then also starts falling.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 07:03:40 am by Cataceous »
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2021, 03:04:18 am »

How long do the negative-going and positive-going E2 over-shoots last before reversing and start to track TT ?

Is this time magnitude related with respect to TT and E2 ?

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2021, 07:09:39 am »
I haven't seen definitive research on the amount of the lag between testosterone and estradiol. Based on plasma half-lives I wouldn't expect it to be more than an hour or two. I think the actual relationship must be between estradiol and free testosterone. It is free testosterone that is directly aromatized to estradiol.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2021, 01:27:38 am »
Cat,
It js also possible that T had already peaked in tbe early afternoon and was on its way down when the late afternoon test was made.  That would explain why E2 was lower in the late afternoon, it had already "overshot" going up and was on its way down, plausable?

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2021, 02:55:51 pm »
I'd say this explanation is plausible, and probably the best we have without getting lots more data.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2021, 10:14:03 pm »
Cat,
If you wanted the MOST accurate Total T and T Free test result, would you choose LC/MS/MS or Equalibrium Dialysis ?
Thanks

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2021, 01:39:17 am »
LC/MS/MS is in theory the most accurate test for total testosterone. I'm not sure it's worth the extra money for those with fairly normal testosterone levels. For the most part I have had consistent and expected results with LabCorp's standard immunoassay test for total testosterone.

For free testosterone, equilibrium dialysis is the gold standard. Equilibrium ultrafiltration is second-best. The standard direct free T tests are inaccurate and should not be used. Calculated free testosterone, such as Tru-T or Vermeulen, falls in between the direct test and the more accurate testing methods.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2021, 01:31:21 pm »
I should add that in many cases the more accurate testing methods are also less reliable. User "madman" quotes research about equilibrium dialysis in this post:

Quote
Although equilibrium dialysis is widely considered to be the gold standard for measuring free testosterone, this method is subject to various sources of error that may contribute to inaccuracy and imprecision. For instance, the dilution of serum or plasma may disturb the equilibrium between SHBG and its ligands.

Results may also be altered when solutes become attached to the dialysis apparatus or membrane or when there is an unequal distribution of free ligands between the two compartments as a result of (1) inadequate time to reach equilibrium; (2) release of materials from the plate or membrane that interferes with the determination of concentration; and (3) the Donnan effect at low ionic strengths, which alters the distribution of charged particles near a semipermeable membrane so that they may not distribute evenly across the two sides of the membrane (194, 195). The ionic strength and pH of the dialysis buffer and the temperature at which dialysis is performed affect the equilibrium and the estimates of binding parameters. The batch-to-batch variability in adsorption characteristics of dialysis plates from different manufacturers may be an additional source of interassay variation.

The same problem is seen with the so-called "sensitive" estradiol test. This test can accurately measure very low levels of estradiol, but it is finicky and difficult. In my experience the labs frequently mess it up and return garbage results. In particular, two times in seven tests the returned values were half of what they should have been, as determined by subsequent retesting.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

doin it

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2021, 06:06:12 am »

Cataceous

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Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2021, 03:32:47 pm »
I've seen that second study, but not the other two. It's particularly interesting how older men with low bone density lack a diurnal rhythm in bioavailable estradiol, whereas their counterparts with normal bone density have one.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 3.2 mg TE subQ qd, 2.4 mg TP subQ qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: Switching From T Cyp to T Prop
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2021, 03:32:47 pm »