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Author Topic: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made  (Read 5802 times)

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #90 on: April 08, 2021, 01:31:18 pm »
What is considered high? My e is always right around 20. That's not high so technically i shouldn't need a serm but I bet I will which might cause low e. I've had low e before and that is no fun at all. I'm beginning to like this protocol less all the time.
...

A high level of estradiol in this context is something above the normal physiology of the individual. It's also not a binary situation. As estradiol rises the production of the gonadotropins is increasingly suppressed. And even so, the Royal Medical Center results seem to show that high levels of GnRH overcome the suppressive effects of estradiol at the pituitary. SERMs do not reduce estradiol. Instead they block estradiol at certain receptors, preventing some actions, but allowing others to proceed.

...
By the way, I've been on 100mcg of kisspeptin only once a day for a week. My mood has improved, I'm more happy, not an old curmudgeon, and I seem to be more interested in a lot of projects I've been putting off for 6 years now. I do go thru phases where I will take an interest in projects for awhile but then fall back down to the low I'm usually at so time will time. I will try to get labs tomorrow or Friday to check LH and FSH.

 Heres something else weird, something is making me piss a lot more than normal. Because of whatever is going on with my kidneys I could go 6 or 7 hours after my first mornng piss before needing to go again. Now I might go 4 or 5 times during the day alone. Seems like I briefly read that kisspeptin had some kind of effect on the kidneys but I didn't go into it.

Some of the kisspeptin research does mention mood improvements.

A casual reading of kisspeptin's role in kidney function suggests a trend towards greater fluid retention. You wouldn't think this would result in more frequent urination, but maybe it's more complicated than that. It does mean that monitoring blood pressure is a good idea.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #91 on: April 10, 2021, 03:17:30 am »
You're gonna have the same end result whether you're blocking production of e or blocking the receptor. I've felt that and it's no fun, extreme joint and muscle pain.


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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #91 on: April 10, 2021, 03:17:30 am »


Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #92 on: April 10, 2021, 11:50:42 am »
The "S" in SERM stands for "Selective". This means you can have quite different results depending on the type of estrogen receptor. Check out this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Tissue-specific_estrogenic_and_antiestrogenic_activity_of_SERMs
Every SERM listed is agonistic in bone. With SERMs you are not going to experience all the negative side effects of low estrogen. There are still valid concerns, of course. For example, enclomiphene is antagonistic of estrogen receptors at the hypothalamus and other areas of the brain. There is speculation that this could harm libido due to estrogen's important role therein. But it's not clear-cut. Anecdotally some guys, such as myself, maintain or increase libido while using this drug.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 05:24:05 pm by Cataceous »
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2021, 05:02:37 pm »
I understand what the s stands for. You're still blocking estrogen in some areas and possibly raising it in others. Me and e do not get along at all so there's no telling what it would do to me. Doesn't matter because I've stopped everything. I just can't take the body and joint pain while on T. It's becoming unbearable, especially in the mornings. It's all I can do to get out of bed and put weight on my feet some times much less go about day to day business without my entire body hurting. I'm 48 but I literally feel and move like I'm 98. It's never been this bad before. I still believe my issue is dopamine and until I find something that I can take to raise it that doesn't actually cause depression then I'm going to stay on that trail. I'm still waiting on some selegiline that I bought over a month ago. My interest in projects is still up but I go thru phases of that for a few months then I hit bottom again for a few months and physically I'm at a new rock bottom right now. In the last couple of weeks I've started having hot flashes, I acquired vertigo for the first time in my life, the central sleep apnea has gotten a lot worse and I feel like a swollen hog ready for slaughter. Something is gonna have to give eventually whether good or bad.

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2021, 05:02:37 pm »


BHsb

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2021, 08:01:33 pm »
53Chevy, your journey has been a very difficult one. I would recommend that you consider a few things:

First, sex hormones do not necessarily drive all aspect of the human experience. While DHEA and TRT can provide a positive lift in mood, energy, libido, etc. a number of other things can impact these things as well. Therefore, adding or subtracting one sex hormone or another may or may not be beneficial. Depression alone, with no sex hormone deficiency, can cause a lot of the horrible things you have experienced (low motivation, libido, weight gain, etc.).

Second, exogenous hormone replacement causes a number of downstream events that can impact how you feel. For example, with Testosterone Enanthate, trough levels gradually increase over time. By the time you reach a steady state your peak, trough and avg levels are different from where you started. Maybe you felt good in the beginning, but your physiology may not appreciate the higher levels a few months into treatment. Also, the longer high levels of testosterone linger, the more opportunity there is to convert it to estrogen and DHT. High or low levels of these can make you feel good or bad, too. So, now you are chasing multiple hormones.

My personal feeling is that less is more. I think it's common to feel that if substance X is good for you, then more of substance X is better. With TRT, I think the opposite can often be true. I am not the first to suggest that TRT is not the answer to all things related to mood, energy, libido, etc.

Lastly, you seem to have a (possibly justified) skeptical perception of doctors in general. I think you need a good primary care physician whom you trust that can address your electrolytes, apnea, palpitations, thyroid issues and mood. Human physiology is very complex and a good, competent physician who can quarterback your health and possibly consult with specialists where needed may do you a lot of good.

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2021, 07:55:35 pm »
Bhsb, I'm going to assume you didn't read the whole thread and possibly only read my last comment because the whole theme of this thread has been that trt screws up other systems in the body and the trick is finding out what exactly it screwed up. No I'm not depressed. You can feel like garbage and have multiple things wrong and not be depressed. It really gets on my nerves when people say "well you must be depressed". No, I'm not. And I will never trust a doctor 100% ever again after I've seen the incompetence and downright don't give a shit attitude by many of them.

I finally got the selegiline yesterday and started on it this morning. We'll see what happens.

BHsb

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2021, 06:13:25 pm »
Chevy, you are correct. I did not read the entire thread, as it is seven pages long. I would only reiterate my recommendation that it may not be in your best interest to be wary of ALL physicians. I am rooting for you. Please keep posting.

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #97 on: May 22, 2021, 04:48:30 am »
Been on selegiline at 2.5 mg a day for 3 weeks now and the only thing I feel is the insomnia it has caused. It sucks when you can only sleep 2 hours a night. Thank God that has started to go away this week. Other than that I feel absolutely nothing. It amazes me how quickly the bad stuff comes on with new meds but the good stuff takes weeks to months if it ever happens at all. I know yall think I'm impatient but literally everybody I talk to says it took about two weeks for them to feel the effects of their antidepressant or anxiety meds.

The wellbutrin has caused some long lasting effects. I've had heartburn maybe 5 times in my entire life but ever since I took wellbutrin I've had it every single day pretty much all day. Also, something has all of the sudden has caused both of my hands to go numb while I sleep. I literally mean all of the sudden. Why? I have no damn clue. Sometimes it turns into excruciating pain all the way up my arms. I still have hot flashes and have no clue where they are coming from but that didn't start until the wellbutrin. The one good thing is wellbutrin has help me quit smoking. I haven't touched one in over two months.

The body/joint pain is as intense as ever. I can literally do nothing all day and I hurt all over. The bullshit I've been going thru for 6 years now has made me so negative and cynical that I'm about ready to give up on everyhting.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #98 on: May 23, 2021, 12:02:06 pm »
That's odd that you're getting numb hands while sleeping. Any change in sleeping position that might account for it?

Congrats on quiting smoking. A friend just lost his mom partly due to smoking-related lung cancer. It's not something you'd wish on anyone.

Regarding all that pain, let me again suggest a trial of palmitoylethanolamide for a few weeks. For me the difference has been pretty impressive.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #99 on: May 23, 2021, 06:20:06 pm »
The only thing that's changed as far as my sleeping would be the insomnia. I personally think being swollen like a hog has something to do with the numbness. Yall can think I'm joking but when I say I'm retaining water and I'm bloated all over I seriously mean it's bad. My sister even noticed how swollen my hands were the other day and I hadn't said a word to her about it. I think the overall swelling could be putting pressure on nerves. The water retention seems to be getting worse. I wake up every morning now with even my forearms so tight and swollen and I have no clue what's causing this. I've tried numerous things and nothing will remedy it. Lasix has gotten to where it does very little. 40 mg would make me pee several times within the first 2-4 hours and at 80 mg I'd be pissing every 15 minutes. Now it barely makes me go. I'm swollen the worst in the morning and my BP was 14/85 this morning. I need to go get a cbc/cmp and see if my sodium level is even higher than it use to be.

I just read up on the side effects of selegiline again and noticed back and leg pain being listed. This might explain my sudden low back pain over the last few weeks. Now it has moved I to my hip which rarely ever happens. I might have to discontinue selegiline because the hip pain is starting to make walking painful and I can't have that but I'll give it a few more weeks first.

I'll have to read up on palmitoylethanolamide. I meant to the last time you mentioned it but completely forget about it.

cujet

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #100 on: May 25, 2021, 12:47:02 am »
Are you sure you don't have an autoimmune disease? Autoimmune diseases of any type are inflammatory in nature, and can cause all sorts of problems, depending on what gets attacked.

In my case, I can't take it anymore. I need to get back on pred. The anti RNP antibodies attack every cell in me.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 12:49:23 am by cujet »
57 years old
Autoimmune Hashimoto's, near zero natural T production
Cause: severe mononucleosis in my early 30's
Weight 220
Height 5' 10"
180mg NPthyroid (natural desiccated pigs thyroid)
Labs (Oct 2017) , my T=730, TSH 0.03, T3+T4 mid-range normal.
 
10% compounded creme. T=725, which feels just right.

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #101 on: May 26, 2021, 07:03:46 am »
I'm not sure of anything and have no clue what's wrong with me. I've been in bed for a day and a half due to my lower back going out and I dropped my drill and stuck the drill bit thru my foot. Actually my back went out while bent over doctoring my foot. I'm taking muscle relaxers so in this time I've been knocked out and not eating or drinking much at all. I'm amazed at how skinny my fingers and toes feel and my biceps and forearms aren't all pumped up and tight right now due to the fact of very little sodium or water intake. This makes me believe even more that there's something going on with my kidneys and I'm pretty damn sure it's caused by TRT. I retain damn near every bit of sodium and water I put in my body. If I find out what's causing that then I'd bet everything I own that will lead me to whatever is causing everything else. If I could just get a damn doctor to listen to me and have actual diagnostic skills. I'm a mechanic by trade and hobby and troubleshooting is 75% of the job. Most doctors can't troubleshoot beyond giving drugs for the usual reasons.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #102 on: May 26, 2021, 11:51:40 am »
Sounds like it's time for some comprehensive lab work. If you can't get a doctor to cooperate then you might just need to buy your own directly, if you're in a state that permits it.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #103 on: May 26, 2021, 06:49:50 pm »
I've been doing my own lab work for years. The only thing consistently out of whack is low CO2 and my sodium level jumping up from pre trt levels. I've checked numerous things, hormones, vitamin and mineral levels etc and that's the only thing out of whack. But according to a certain doctor that's due to hyperventilation while getting blood drawn and he didn't discuss it any further even tho it's been going on for years. If I can figure out what ails my kidneys then I believe that will solve the whole puzzle.

Mr.L

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #104 on: May 26, 2021, 10:17:07 pm »
I am truly not trying to be a dick but How can you be sure that TRT actually caused the problem? Perhaps there was something there before you started it. The symptoms you describe do not sound like a side effect of TRT except the bloat, that can be caused by E2. I am super sensitive to any changes in my E2 levels high or low and even just a shift, within in normal range cause me problems. Have you ever had an MRI? What does your diet look like? Also, how's your gut health? It is possible that you are being exposed to an environmental toxin as well. Where in the country do you live? I know exposure to chemicals associated with factory farms/livestock can wreak some havoc on your health. Finally, you mentioned sleep apnea; are you using a CPAP? I didn't read through the entire thread so I apologize if you have already answered these question.     

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #104 on: May 26, 2021, 10:17:07 pm »