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Author Topic: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made  (Read 4503 times)

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2021, 11:34:28 am »
...
I've searched and searched for a connection to trt and I come up empty every time. I think it's because it just hasn't been studied enough yet.

While there's certainly more going on, I found that normalizing progesterone, kisspeptin, GnRH, LH and FSH fixes the problems I've had that might reasonably be associated with TRT. It's unclear if this solution is widely applicable, and its complexity reduces its practicality. One other guy that I know of is trying this approach. It will be interesting to see what he reports.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2021, 05:14:16 pm »
What are you doing for gnrh? Ive never even heard of kisspeptin. I'll have to read up on that.

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2021, 05:14:16 pm »


Cataceous

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I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2021, 09:47:21 pm »
I'll have to read all of that again because my memory and absorption of facts is at an all time terrible right now but do you really think this is helping? I mean is it a definite change for the good or is it more like yeah I think this might be helping me? I have no problem with trying this regimen for awhile and see what happens.

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2021, 09:47:21 pm »


Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2021, 01:34:26 am »
I've had 7+ months of consistently good libido and sexual function. The last time I had such a good stretch was before I became hypogonadal, approaching a decade ago. I also have some semi-objective evidence of cognitive improvement. I perceive it as a definite change for the good—so much so that I happily endure multiple injections daily to continue the protocol.

The skeptic must note that this is one individual doing an unblinded test, and the evaluation is partly subjective. Even if we accept that I'm not fooling myself somehow, I can't say how likely it is that others will achieve the same success. I've argued that it's unlikely that I just stumbled onto a protocol that would usually require a lot of fine-tuning. This makes me hopeful that the general principle has a broad application: normalize testosterone and restore the suppressed hormones to reasonable levels and maybe good things will happen.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2021, 08:44:40 am »
If you'll send me your exact regimen I'd be more than willing to try it out. Maybe I missed it but I don't see anywhere that states you're using kisspeptin. I've been reading on it tonight and it seems quite interesting.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2021, 03:09:30 pm »
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2021, 06:41:16 pm »
Did you try kisspeptin at all? If so what were your results? To me it seems like kisspeptin would be the way to go because it's been proven to raise lh and fsh plus they think it plays a part in libido, mood and even metabolism. I know there's not a lot of info on it right now but I did come across a study that gives the dose they used and the lh and fsh results from each dose.

I do think you're on the right track with this. I've always thought that trt shuts down some vital component that we need to feel normal but I always came at it from the angle of balls being shutdown therefore they aren't producing something that we need.

I'm thinking about trying just kisspeptin first at different doses and see what happens. I've still got a lot of reading to do before I decide to try it tho.

Another thought that I've had, if kisspeptin, gnrh or something similar is what we're missing then it seems like if we quit trt then you would think there would be a window, even a small one, where our T is high enough and we're also producing grnh and we would feel better even if just for a little while. MYbe, maybe not but I do find this interesting.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2021, 09:38:14 pm »
Kisspeptin is intriguing. It seemed to improve EQ and sensitivity in a dose-dependent way. It's also a possible candidate for monotherapy in cases where the HPTA dysfunction is upstream.

...
Another thought that I've had, if kisspeptin, gnrh or something similar is what we're missing then it seems like if we quit trt then you would think there would be a window, even a small one, where our T is high enough and we're also producing grnh and we would feel better even if just for a little while. MYbe, maybe not but I do find this interesting.

This is unlikely, as both androgens and estrogens are suppressive at the hypothalamus. Levels would need to fall pretty low to trigger production, and there is probably a startup lag from shutdown of at least days to weeks.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2021, 08:06:23 am »
I don't understand why levels would need to fall pretty low to trigger production because that's not how it would normally be. T doesn't have to fall pretty low before we start producing more. Anyway, still reading on kisspeptin.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2021, 12:45:48 pm »
The average healthy young guy has peak testosterone in the 600s ng/dL and troughs around 300-400. How many guys on TRT are running this low? Beyond that, because it doesn’t respond to negative HPTA feedback, exogenous testosterone appears more suppressive than endogenous testosterone. For example, put this average young guy on TRT at too low of a dose and you can probably get him into full HPTA suppression with serum T levels lower than his normal trough. This means it will take hypogonadal levels to end the suppression. Add in the significant time lag to restart native production and there’s no way you can have both decent residual testosterone from TRT and good natural production of the upstream hormones.

The closest thing to realizing this scenario would be a restart to natural production followed by use of Natesto. Nastesto is so short-acting that its HPTA suppression is mild.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 01:20:22 pm by Cataceous »
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2021, 01:05:02 am »
It would depend on their dose and ester they're using as to how low their low is and how quickly it comes about. I need to look at some old labs because I remember when I first saw the idiot endo I rememeber he did labs and it had been 11 days since my last 200 mg shot and I think my T was in the 300s. I think he checked my lh and fsh at the same time. I'll have to find those labs because my curiosity is up.

I'm about to buy some kisspeptin and gnrh. Gotta decide if I want to try just kisspeptin first or go ahead with your regimen. Where are you getting your gonaderelin and enclomiphene?

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2021, 03:12:56 am »
I get my enclomiphene via Defy Medical. My current batch is from Tailor Made Pharmacy, but it sounds like Empower will be the source in the future.

Gonadorelin can be obtained from Hallandale pharmacy with a prescription and otherwise as a research chemical from Peptide Sciences.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2021, 05:34:15 am »
Got some stuff coming, should be here this week. I quit the wellbutrin 3 days ago, that shit ain't good for nothing. I still have no sense of taste, some lingering depression, still a wee bit dizzy feeling and still herk and jerk while I'm trying to fall asleep. I guess it's one of those things where if you need it it's great but if you don't it's awful. I'm going to wait until this bit of depression is gone before I start the other regimen, hopefully it'll be gone by the time I get my stuff.

Can you walk me thru the need for the enclomiphene? I've never used any serms before so I've never studied them.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2021, 12:28:59 pm »
...
Can you walk me thru the need for the enclomiphene? I've never used any serms before so I've never studied them.

Estrogens act at the pituitary to reduce production of the gonadotropins, LH and FSH. This won't interfere with any independent benefits of GnRH, but if you're trying to get away from hCG and experience the separate benefits of making your own LH and FSH then a SERM such as enclomiphene is used to block the suppressive effects of estradiol at the pituitary. SERM use may be a balancing act: there's speculation that SERMs in excess could block the desirable effects of estradiol elsewhere in the brain. This is why I dropped my enclomiphene dose to 12.5 mg EOD even though the gonadotropin production may not be quite as good as with daily use.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2021, 12:28:59 pm »