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Author Topic: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made  (Read 2729 times)

seppuku

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2021, 02:12:11 pm »
...
Can you walk me thru the need for the enclomiphene? I've never used any serms before so I've never studied them.

Estrogens act at the pituitary to reduce production of the gonadotropins, LH and FSH. This won't interfere with any independent benefits of GnRH, but if you're trying to get away from hCG and experience the separate benefits of making your own LH and FSH then a SERM such as enclomiphene is used to block the suppressive effects of estradiol at the pituitary. SERM use may be a balancing act: there's speculation that SERMs in excess could block the desirable effects of estradiol elsewhere in the brain. This is why I dropped my enclomiphene dose to 12.5 mg EOD even though the gonadotropin production may not be quite as good as with daily use.

Hi Cataceous - i've been facinated lately reading here, and on Nelsons site about your trials and experimentation with regards to your own protocol. I hope people here appeciate what a fountain of knowledge you are and the advice you freely give out.  Quick question - have you found through adding on the enclomiphene to your trt that it's increased your LH /FSH levels?  I'm guessing if it has it wouldn't be by a huge amount due to the exogenous testosterone, but has it increased enough to have an effect on other things like your dhea levels, or testicular volume?  That to me seems like the holy grail of hormone replacement for men, avoiding, or at least reducing the suppression that occurs with trt.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2021, 03:41:40 pm »
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Hi Cataceous - i've been facinated lately reading here, and on Nelsons site about your trials and experimentation with regards to your own protocol. I hope people here appeciate what a fountain of knowledge you are and the advice you freely give out.  Quick question - have you found through adding on the enclomiphene to your trt that it's increased your LH /FSH levels?  I'm guessing if it has it wouldn't be by a huge amount due to the exogenous testosterone, but has it increased enough to have an effect on other things like your dhea levels, or testicular volume?  That to me seems like the holy grail of hormone replacement for men, avoiding, or at least reducing the suppression that occurs with trt.

You're one of the ones I was learning from originally, and I'm happy to be similarly sharing knowledge with others.

The combination of enclomiphene and GnRH can raise LH and FSH under TRT, and did in my case, as documented here.


Enclomiphene by itself will generally not overcome the suppressive effects of TRT. This is because androgens are independently suppressive at the hypothalamus, blocking kisspeptin production, which in turn shuts down GnRH. Use of exogenous GnRH bypasses this problem. It's possible that use of exogenous kisspeptin would do the same.

Interestingly, the protocol does not seem to have noticeably affected progesterone or DHEA-S. I'm not sure why that is. But having even low-normal levels of both LH and FSH has improved testicular and ejaculate volumes considerably, more so than 1,000 IU hCG weekly. It also appears to retain or restore fertility. Endogenous contributions to testosterone are too small to discern. This isn't so surprising given that it was also true with hCG. I expect this will vary depending on the individual; some guys see substantial endogenous testosterone with very modest amounts of hCG.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2021, 03:41:40 pm »


seppuku

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2021, 04:33:51 pm »
...
Hi Cataceous - i've been facinated lately reading here, and on Nelsons site about your trials and experimentation with regards to your own protocol. I hope people here appeciate what a fountain of knowledge you are and the advice you freely give out.  Quick question - have you found through adding on the enclomiphene to your trt that it's increased your LH /FSH levels?  I'm guessing if it has it wouldn't be by a huge amount due to the exogenous testosterone, but has it increased enough to have an effect on other things like your dhea levels, or testicular volume?  That to me seems like the holy grail of hormone replacement for men, avoiding, or at least reducing the suppression that occurs with trt.

You're one of the ones I was learning from originally, and I'm happy to be similarly sharing knowledge with others.

The combination of enclomiphene and GnRH can raise LH and FSH under TRT, and did in my case, as documented here.


Enclomiphene by itself will generally not overcome the suppressive effects of TRT. This is because androgens are independently suppressive at the hypothalamus, blocking kisspeptin production, which in turn shuts down GnRH. Use of exogenous GnRH bypasses this problem. It's possible that use of exogenous kisspeptin would do the same.

Interestingly, the protocol does not seem to have noticeably affected progesterone or DHEA-S. I'm not sure why that is. But having even low-normal levels of both LH and FSH has improved testicular and ejaculate volumes considerably, more so than 1,000 IU hCG weekly. It also appears to retain or restore fertility. Endogenous contributions to testosterone are too small to discern. This isn't so surprising given that it was also true with hCG. I expect this will vary depending on the individual; some guys see substantial endogenous testosterone with very modest amounts of hCG.

Wow, that's a fantastic finding, and a great result Cataceous - LH numbers well within "normal" results. I wonder if over time that will increase even more for you - i'll be definitely keeping tabs on your progress.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2021, 12:04:01 pm »
LH and FSH stabilized around 2 mIU/mL, so they stayed on the low side for me. And with the reduction in enclomiphene they could be a little lower still. I haven't checked in a while; I'm due for lab work and am planning to see where they stand. In any case, the subjective results have remained very good.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2021, 12:04:01 pm »


53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2021, 05:41:40 pm »
I don't expect this to help me any but I've got to try it. I still think my issue lies in whatever is causing my kidney numbers and co2 to be out of whack which is causing mild acidosis and it still could be low dopamine causing my issues also. I've been reading up on mao inhibitors and that will be my next experiment after the kisspeptin and gnrh.

seppuku

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2021, 08:16:06 am »
I don't expect this to help me any but I've got to try it. I still think my issue lies in whatever is causing my kidney numbers and co2 to be out of whack which is causing mild acidosis and it still could be low dopamine causing my issues also. I've been reading up on mao inhibitors and that will be my next experiment after the kisspeptin and gnrh.

Fingers crossed you wont bite my head off this time but if you haven't  already read this, then you might find it useful -
https://www.kidney.org/atoz/content/facts-about-metabolic-acidosis-and-chronic-kidney-disease
Taking small amounts of bicarb is thought to be healthy anyhow, i take it daily with my creatine

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2021, 01:32:08 am »
I've already tried bicarb and any other thing I could think of to bring my co2 level up. Trust me when I say I studied kidneys for 2-3 years with no luck on changing anything.

Got the kisspeptin and gonadorelin today but I forgot to get any bac water. 🤦🏻‍♂️ I've got some but it's out of date. I don't know if bac water actually goes bad or not but I'm afraid to use it thinking it'll ruin the kisspeptin or gnrh.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #67 on: March 28, 2021, 02:30:42 am »
I don't know how fast benzyl alcohol degrades. I doubt it would ruin the peptides, but it might not provide as much bacteriostatic protection.

What sort of protocol are you considering?
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #68 on: March 28, 2021, 06:47:25 pm »
I'm thinking about starting with just kisspeptin first for a couple of days at 200 mcg every 2-3 hours. If I don't feel anything then add enclomiphene, not sure the dose yet. I only have 5 mg of kisspeptin so it's not gonna last but a few days. I'll run that out completely. If I feel nothing with that then start the gnrh at the same dose and frequency. If I feel nothing with that then I'm gonna say either this won't work for me or I'm still missing something else also. I'm still leaning toward dopamine but I have no clue really. I've got some seligiline on the way and will be reading up on it some more.

I have some questions for you, did you start the selegiline before or after you started the gnrh regimen? Do you watch what you eat carefully and have you had any BP episodes due to the seligiline? Did you get worse before better on the seligiline, or did it cause depression like the wellbutrin did me? Did I also read correctly that you said you felt something after the very first dose on gnrh?

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #69 on: March 28, 2021, 09:13:33 pm »
Given that I've seen noticeable effects with both 5 and 10 mcg doses of kisspeptin (five times per day) I'd suggest starting much lower than 200 mcg. It's hard to predict what kind of reaction you'd have to such large amounts. Additionally, you are not going to restart your HPTA in just a few days, or probably even in a few weeks. And a good rule of thumb for hormonal adjustments is that after stabilization on a new protocol one should give it 2-3 months before evaluating the results. Perhaps a reasonable compromise is to try multiple small injections daily for as long as you can stand it, then switch to one somewhat larger one each day. Be again cautioned that little is known about chronic administration of supraphysiological doses.

Here's how things went for me overall:
T=0, start GnRH and enclomiphene
T=2 months, start selegiline at 1.25 mg per day, small improvement in mood and motivation noted within a couple weeks
T=4 months, libido now consistently good after gradually improving over previous 4 months
T=5 months, start kisspeptin, within one month improvements noted in EQ and sensitivity
T=9 months, start phenethylamine at ~80 mg per day, modest increase in energy noted
T=12 months, increase the selegiline dose to 2.5 mg/day, within two weeks mood boosted to consistently good, motivation much improved

I'd been thinking the selegiline was not much of a factor in the return of libido, but with the timing I can't be sure about that; the variable wasn't isolated.

I have not modified my diet, nor have I had any blood pressure issues.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2021, 02:01:18 am »
Returning to the subject of excessive pain sensitivity from a few pages back: I've been trying a different PEA these past few weeks. It is palmitoylethanolamide, as opposed to phenethylamine. While the results are not dramatic, they seem to be tangible; it feels as though overall pain sensitivity is damped down a bit, which is a welcome effect. Something to research further and consider.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2021, 07:13:46 am »
I found a couple studies that used 1mcg per kg of weight in their study but I can't seem to find them now. I'll learn to bookmark stuff one of these days. But that might have been just a one time shot. I do recall the study saying they saw results rather quickly. I wanna say it doubled LH in a few hours and had about the same result on T. I'm not necessarily after making endogenous T right now, I'm after the supposed effects of kisspeptin. I don't buy into this it takes months to see results either. I've never taken any meds that took more than a few days to feel the effects whether good or bad. Hell, trt gave me massive morning wood 3 or 4 days after the first shot. By day 9 it was like there was never anything wrong with me. That damn wellbutrin brought depression on in a week's time. I need to find those studies again before I jump in feet first and make sure what their dose was and how frequent. I know one part of the study was a steady infusion of kisspeptin and I believe they saw a massive gain in LH and T. I might just try a once a day dose at first and see what happens. I've gotta find those studies again first.

So you're saying you didn't feel something after the first dose? I could have swore I read that somewhere? Looking at your time line it seems like the MAOI is what gave you most of your improvements.

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2021, 08:00:40 am »
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/96/8/E1228/2833644

Here's one of the studies. It was a range of IV bolus doses over weeks with the lowest dose being .01and highest being 3 mcg/kg. It appears they would do 90 minutes sessions of monitoring after the shot. The IV infusion was 4mcg/kg per hour and it went on for several hours at that dose.

Anyway, I'm not done researching it yet so I've yet to decide the exact dose and frequency. What would be nice is to do like a 100-200 mcg dose in the morning, check LH and FSH an hour later then go back that afternoon and check it again just to see if it was still elevated from basically zero. It doesn't really matter tho if I feel nothing from it unless I was after keeping my balls alive and plumped up.

On the dopamine side, I was talking with a friend today and she was telling me she has been put on atomoxetine. She claims she already feels better in just a few days of being on it. She also inormed me that she use to be on wellbutrin back when we were "really good friends" and that explained why she couldn't get enough. 🤣 She was on brand name and the insurance company switched her to generic and she said it was like night and day difference so she quit it altogether. This gives me hope that maybe I can eventually find something to raise my dopamine levels and feel human again.

 I really don't think the kisspeptin nor gnrh is going to do me any good and here's why. For the first three months on trt I felt awesome, like a teenager. I would bet pretty heavy that my LH and FSH were shut down within days which means my kisspeptin and gnrh were shutdown also yet I felt great for a long time after that so that tells me that's not my issue if it took 3 months to start feeling like garbage. I do know my balls were basically non existent a couple months into it so that tells me I was in full shutdown yet still felt great.

I would like to link a drop in dopamone to trt  but I haven't been able to yet. Of course I've read these opinions that trt raises dopamine so high at first that it will cause down regulation of dopamine receptors but I need concrete evidence of that. It also seems like if you got off trt for a year like I did that dopamine receptors would up regulate again and trt would feel great for a few months again so I don't buy that explanation.

I'll do this experiment and then probably get back on raising dopamine somehow.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2021, 01:53:11 pm »
You're recalling the statement I made about my first day on GnRH, when I had a brief flash of really good libido. While it's nice to get a promising hint like that, the reality is that it took months before I was sure I was seeing lasting improvements. Patience is essential.

The kisspeptin research was conducted on healthy individuals with functional HPTAs. It's not reasonable to expect the same results when starting from a state of hypothalamic and pituitary atrophy.

Anecdotally there can be quite a large time lag between an HPTA shutdown and the appearance of various negative effects. I had pretty good results on TRT for some years, but things gradually went downhill. I confirmed that this was in part due to prolactin creeping up. But simply pushing prolactin back down with cabergoline was not a complete solution. Instead, restoring the upstream hormones to realistic levels is what fixed things. I can't exclude a contribution by selegiline, but I still suspect it was negligible with respect to improvements in libido and sexual function.

I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2021, 05:39:51 pm »
Yeah that's what I was referring to. I didn't have the time line you posted earlier so it appeared that you immediately felt results going by what you had posted.

I don't understand why it wouldn't be realistic. Just because you've been shut down doesn't mean the hypothalamus and pituitary are dead. Yes, it might take a little while for the balls to come back fully and produce T but I would think lh and fsh should bounce back almost immediately. That's not what I'm after anyway. As I said I'm after these feel good effects that kisspeptin is suppose to have on the brain and possibly some affects that lh and fsh might have, which I'm doubting will affect me as I stated.

I don't agree with your last statement at all but I do think that it is entirely subjective. If my balls basically disappear in a month then I'm pretty sure that's gonna have a negative effect right then and there. How can it be delayed if all the upstream hormones are gone and those hormones are what is supposedly making you feel better? If they're not there then they can't be doing their job therefore you will feel it. Like I said I just don't buy into this it takes months to feel the effects from this or that, unless you are taking a minute amount of said drug or supplement or such and such level gradual drops over a long period of time.

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2021, 05:39:51 pm »