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Author Topic: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made  (Read 4405 times)

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #75 on: March 29, 2021, 08:21:28 pm »
The graph I posted above shows that I didn't get appreciable LH production until 40-50 days in. It's a marathon, not a sprint. My experience also tells me that the best results are obtained by imitating normal physiology as closely as we can. I don't see how taking very large amounts of kisspepin for a short period of time is going to be reflective of the results one would have with realistic doses over a long period.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2021, 05:05:37 pm »
And you were taking a very small dose in my opinion not to mention doing more than one thing at a time. That's what I was referring to. If it takes months to see any results then I'd say the dose is way too small. I mean yeah you might get there eventually but why waste all that time? Once you get there then OK back the dose off until you see things changing direction the other way. As you can see from the study at I believe the 100 or 200 mcg bolus lh and fsh jumped quite a bit and quickly. That's why I want to do labs like an hour after a dose and then several hours later to see if I'm still getting any effects. Why shoot up every few hours if you don't have to?

Do we even know how much kisspeptin the average body makes? I know where my lh and fsh are just a few weeks after being off T and they are both above range so I'd say mimicking that would be a good start. That's why I want to do labs along the way and see what's going on.

I don't see how taking a larger dose wouldn't give at least a glimpse of what it's going to do, within reason of course. I'm not talking about shooting up a whole bottle at once but I am leaning toward 100 - 200 mcg a day. I just dont think I could keep up with shots every two hours.

Like I said I don't buy into this taking months to see results or taking months or years to see ill effects from a shut down. It's never happened for me with anything. That's like saying I'm going to cut your balls off but you won't feel the effects for years or I'm going to take your thyroid out but you won't feel it for months or years. That's just not logical. Or like saying I could give you this much and get there quicker but were gonna do a 1/4 dose and take months to get there. That's just not logical.

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2021, 05:05:37 pm »


53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2021, 05:07:04 pm »
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, you seem quite knowledgeable but I just approach things differently than you apparently.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2021, 01:47:17 am »
We can look at the research on testosterone to get an idea of the possible time spans involved when tinkering with the sex hormones:

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved

... This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects are attained.
...
Effects on sexual interest appear after 3 weeks plateauing at 6 weeks, with no further increments expected beyond. Changes in erections/ejaculations may require up to 6 months. Effects on quality of life manifest within 34 weeks, but maximum benefits take longer. Effects on depressive mood become detectable after 36 weeks with a maximum after 1830 weeks. Effects on erythropoiesis are evident at 3 months, peaking at 912 months. Prostate-specific antigen and volume rise, marginally, plateauing at 12 months; further increase should be related to aging rather than therapy. Effects on lipids appear after 4 weeks, maximal after 612 months. Insulin sensitivity may improve within few days, but effects on glycemic control become evident only after 312 months. Changes in fat mass, lean body mass, and muscle strength occur within 1216 weeks, stabilize at 612 months, but can marginally continue over years. Effects on inflammation occur within 312 weeks. Effects on bone are detectable already after 6 months while continuing at least for 3 years.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188848/

Taking excessive doses of testosterone is not going to make things go faster; it's just going to cause side effects, making it harder or impossible to wait for the better results to come.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2021, 01:47:17 am »


53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #79 on: April 01, 2021, 03:14:24 am »
It took 9 days after my first dose on trt to feel human again, and this was coming out of a MAJOR depression. It took 3 or 4 days to get morning wood like a teenager. Somewhere around the two month mark I had already dropped 25 lbs with no diet or exercise so you can see why I call that time line hogwash. It has never taken me more than a few days to a couple of weeks to feel the effects of anything. Besides that were not talking about trt and using a slow ester, we're talking about kisspeptin raising LH and FSH and going by that study the amount LH and FSH is raised is quite dose dependent up to a certain dose. I just don't see the need in dragging it out any further than necessary with a minute dose, it's just not logical.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #80 on: April 01, 2021, 12:20:05 pm »
Certainly everyone is different. Nonetheless, in terms of dosing it's like the difference between a guy being on TRT at 75 mg TC per week or blasting at 500 mg per week. The effects are not going to be the same. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes you to have gonadotropin production. The results from Royal Medical Center suggest that at these high doses enclomiphene isn't needed. But it's questionable that the experience compares well to what would be expected with physiological levels.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2021, 10:47:47 pm »
Is there a reason for enclomiphene over other serms? It seems enclomiphene is faked a lot with these resesrch peptide places.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2021, 02:12:28 am »
Compared to tamoxifen, enclomiphene is better for HPTA stimulation and also may be safer with respect to side effects. I've seen those claims of fakery. It's unfortunate. I find it tenuous to rely on at most two pharmaceutical-grade suppliers of enclomiphene.

There are other SERMs, such as toremifene and raloxifene. But is seems as though they are less popular for this application.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2021, 04:06:53 pm »
It looks like I'm going to go with tamoxifen. I don't want to waste time and money with a possible fake enclomiphene. I don't have the luxury of having a doctor that will even listen much less want to try things outside the box so I'm stuck with doctoring myself and finding the meds online.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #84 on: April 05, 2021, 01:44:54 am »
Personally I couldn't tolerate tamoxifen. Even a mere 2.5 mg daily caused unrelenting GI discomfort. If I didn't have access to pharmaceutical-grade enclomiphene then I might be tempted to try Nootropic Source's offering. Some of their other products seem to have the claimed substances, though at what purity I don't know.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #85 on: April 05, 2021, 06:45:08 am »
Somebody walk me thru this because I'm confused. A seem is used by bodybuilders as a pct meaning it causes the body to produce LH and FSH. It's also used a low T therapy by blocking e receptors and raising LH and FSH. So how do you know if your LH and FSH being raised is from the serm or from kisspeptin/gnrh? Does the high T level due to trt keep the pituitary from producing LH and FSH even if on a serm? In other words even with e receptors blocked it won't produce unless it is stimulated with kisspeptin or gnrh due to higher T levels from trt?

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #86 on: April 06, 2021, 02:16:27 am »
That's close. It's the high testosterone at the hypothalamus that maintains suppression of the HPTA when a SERM is used with TRT. The pituitary is suppressed by estrogens and not androgens. When we introduce exogenous kisspeptin or GnRH we are bypassing the suppressed natural production at the hypothalamus and directly stimulating the pituitary. The SERM prevents higher estrogen from suppressing the pituitary's manufacture of LH and FSH.

It's less clear why SERMs are effective in natural men. Somehow endogenous testosterone is not as suppressive at the hypothalamus as exogenous testosterone. This could in part be dose-related.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #87 on: April 06, 2021, 06:03:18 pm »
So you have to have low e for this to work or does a serm only block e at the pituitary? I can't find the info I'm looking for when researching serms. I mostly just get places selling serms.

Cataceous

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2021, 01:43:37 am »
For this to work the pituitary must believe that estradiol is not high. SERMs block estradiol at both the pituitary and the hypothalamus.
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 59, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
Protocol: 2.4 mg T propionate subQ qd, 3.2 mg T enanthate qd, 20 mcg GnRH subQ 5.25x/d, 6.25 mg DHEA bid, 12.5 mg enclomiphene qod
Approximate levels (peak): TT: 700 ng/dL, E2: 30 pg/mL, DHEA-S: 300 ug/dL, SHBG: 30 nMol/L

53chevy

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #89 on: April 08, 2021, 06:43:57 am »
What is considered high? My e is always right around 20. That's not high so technically i shouldn't need a serm but I bet I will which might cause low e. I've had low e before and that is no fun at all. I'm beginning to like this protocol less all the time.

By the way, I've been on 100mcg of kisspeptin only once a day for a week. My mood has improved, I'm more happy, not an old curmudgeon, and I seem to be more interested in a lot of projects I've been putting off for 6 years now. I do go thru phases where I will take an interest in projects for awhile but then fall back down to the low I'm usually at so time will time. I will try to get labs tomorrow or Friday to check LH and FSH.

 Heres something else weird, something is making me piss a lot more than normal. Because of whatever is going on with my kidneys I could go 6 or 7 hours after my first mornng piss before needing to go again. Now I might go 4 or 5 times during the day alone. Seems like I briefly read that kisspeptin had some kind of effect on the kidneys but I didn't go into it.

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Re: TRT is THE worst decision I've ever made
« Reply #89 on: April 08, 2021, 06:43:57 am »